Might find this interesting

[DaveyMac]

I was doing some research the other day and I thought I'd see how fighters did when fighting an opponent who has 1000 or more boxrec rating points coming into the fight. There are only 7 of these fighters today Floyd, Andre Ward, Wlad K, Timothy Bradley, Juan Manuel Marquez, Canelo Avarez and Serge Martinez.

From the mid '20's to the early 70's though fighters over 1000 points are much more common. In fact in the 50's I'd bet every week a couple of 1000+ fighters met.
I'm not sure why this is as I haven't really studied it. My guesses would be 1) less protected fighters, matchmaking more aggressive and 2) more fights and more fighters so you had more chances to earn points. I don't know if either of those are correct though, just a hunch.

Of course if you fought before say the mid 20's you are going to have less just because of all the missing fights. Very hard for those guys to get over 1000 because they are fighting guys who we have as 3-1 but were really 35-11 or something. Just too many missing fights in the early days.

So most of the current fighters don't have many of these fights. Floyd is only 2-0 in 1000 pt fights. (Canelo and Mosley). Although an interesting note on Floyd, if you drop the threshold to 500, he is 16-0 and again I didn't do the research on that but I think in today's environment 16 fights against 500+ fighters is going to be pretty rare. So maybe some evidence he isn't as protected as some people (including me) often think. Vlad by comparison is only 9-0 against 500+ fighters with his biggest win being against Ruslan Chagaev who was a 767 coming in. (I have to admit for me, that is sort of damning against Wlad's credentials if the highest rated fighter you ever fought- even if the system is flawed- was Ruslan Chagaev, well you're not Joe Louis)

Anyway, I went and just scanned through the records of a lot of great fighters to see how they did and I thought it was interesting and I'd share it. There could be mistakes I didn't work super hard on this just scanned them and recorded it, but this will be close to accurate.

Archie Moore 34-10-1
Sugar Ray Robinson 36-10-2 (in his last fight in his 40's SRR fought a 2000+ pt Joey Archer and went this distance, there isn't a 2000+ point fighter right now on the scene Floyd is #1 with 1798)
Tony Canzoneri 19-10-1
Carlos Monzon 15-0 (this surprised me, I mean great fighter but 15-0! Wow!)
Dick Tiger 20-8-2
Carlos Ortiz 17-6-1
Harry Greb 9-5-2
Henry Armstrong 26-8-1
Jimmy McLarnin 16-6
Floyd Mayweather jr. 2-0
Wladimir Klitschko 0-0

Manny Pacquiao 1-0
Bernard Hopkins 3-1
Sugar Ray Leonard 5-1-1


Ezzard Charles 26-10-1
Rocky Marciano 10-0
Joe Louis 21-2
Muhammad Ali 19-2
Sam Langford 0-5 (all to Harry Wills)
Floyd Patterson 9-7
Harry Wills 0-1 (dq loss to Sharkey)
Max Schmeling 8-3-1

Larry Holmes 3-3
Gene Tunney 6-1-1
Evander Holyfield 3-1

Jack Johnson 0-0
Lennox Lewis 1-0
Joe Frazier 6-4

Sonny Liston 6-2
Jack Sharkey 7-6-3
Jersey Joe Walcott 11-10
Ingemar Johansson 4-2
Max Baer 6-6
George Foreman 3-3
Mike Tyson 1-1
Joe Jeannette 0-1 (to Wills)
Primo Carnera 8-5
Jim Braddock 6-4
Sam McVea 0-1 (to Wills)

Now I'm not saying the Boxrec point system is perfect or anything, I just thought this was interesting on a few levels.
Clearly you sort of have to look at guys by eras as some eras due to changes in the game or recording or whatever just don't produce many 1000 point fighters.

But thought it was fun. You can add up anyone and add them to the list if you want obviously.

[Ambling Alp II]

I did find the thread interesting. Like you, I don't totally buy into the Boxrec ratings, however, it's does give you a very rough idea of someone's competition and how well they did against it.

[dempseyfire]

I was doing some research the other day and I thought I'd see how fighters did when fighting an opponent who has 1000 or more boxrec rating points coming into the fight. There are only 7 of these fighters today Floyd, Andre Ward, Wlad K, Timothy Bradley, Juan Manuel Marquez, Canelo Avarez and Serge Martinez.

From the mid '20's to the early 70's though fighters over 1000 points are much more common. In fact in the 50's I'd bet every week a couple of 1000+ fighters met.
I'm not sure why this is as I haven't really studied it. My guesses would be 1) less protected fighters, matchmaking more aggressive and 2) more fights and more fighters so you had more chances to earn points. I don't know if either of those are correct though, just a hunch.

Of course if you fought before say the mid 20's you are going to have less just because of all the missing fights. Very hard for those guys to get over 1000 because they are fighting guys who we have as 3-1 but were really 35-11 or something. Just too many missing fights in the early days.

So most of the current fighters don't have many of these fights. Floyd is only 2-0 in 1000 pt fights. (Canelo and Mosley). Although an interesting note on Floyd, if you drop the threshold to 500, he is 16-0 and again I didn't do the research on that but I think in today's environment 16 fights against 500+ fighters is going to be pretty rare. So maybe some evidence he isn't as protected as some people (including me) often think. Vlad by comparison is only 9-0 against 500+ fighters with his biggest win being against Ruslan Chagaev who was a 767 coming in. (I have to admit for me, that is sort of damning against Wlad's credentials if the highest rated fighter you ever fought- even if the system is flawed- was Ruslan Chagaev, well you're not Joe Louis)

Anyway, I went and just scanned through the records of a lot of great fighters to see how they did and I thought it was interesting and I'd share it. There could be mistakes I didn't work super hard on this just scanned them and recorded it, but this will be close to accurate.

Archie Moore 34-10-1
Sugar Ray Robinson 36-10-2 (in his last fight in his 40's SRR fought a 2000+ pt Joey Archer and went this distance, there isn't a 2000+ point fighter right now on the scene Floyd is #1 with 1798)
Tony Canzoneri 19-10-1
Carlos Monzon 15-0 (this surprised me, I mean great fighter but 15-0! Wow!)
Dick Tiger 20-8-2
Carlos Ortiz 17-6-1
Harry Greb 9-5-2
Henry Armstrong 26-8-1
Jimmy McLarnin 16-6
Floyd Mayweather jr. 2-0
Wladimir Klitschko 0-0

Manny Pacquiao 1-0
Bernard Hopkins 3-1
Sugar Ray Leonard 5-1-1


Ezzard Charles 26-10-1
Rocky Marciano 10-0
Joe Louis 21-2
Muhammad Ali 19-2
Sam Langford 0-5 (all to Harry Wills)
Floyd Patterson 9-7
Harry Wills 0-1 (dq loss to Sharkey)
Max Schmeling 8-3-1

Larry Holmes 3-3
Gene Tunney 6-1-1
Evander Holyfield 3-1

Jack Johnson 0-0
Lennox Lewis 1-0
Joe Frazier 6-4

Sonny Liston 6-2
Jack Sharkey 7-6-3
Jersey Joe Walcott 11-10
Ingemar Johansson 4-2
Max Baer 6-6
George Foreman 3-3
Mike Tyson 1-1
Joe Jeannette 0-1 (to Wills)
Primo Carnera 8-5
Jim Braddock 6-4
Sam McVea 0-1 (to Wills)

Now I'm not saying the Boxrec point system is perfect or anything, I just thought this was interesting on a few levels.
Clearly you sort of have to look at guys by eras as some eras due to changes in the game or recording or whatever just don't produce many 1000 point fighters.

But thought it was fun. You can add up anyone and add them to the list if you want obviously.

Interesting stuff.

How is Johnson 0-0 when he beat Langford, McVea, Jeannette and Jefferies?

Also Wills beat Mcvey, Langford and Jeannette so he should be more than 0-1 with the DQ loss to Sharkey.

[DaveyMac]

None of those guys were ever over 1000 points when they fought, but again, a lot of the early fighters are missing tons of fights, especially the black ones. So, Johnson and all the others before say 1925 are at a big disadvantage.
That being said, it is hard to find a lot of big names that Johnson fought. The highest rated fighters Johnson fought were Tommy Burns (663) and Stanley Ketchel (639). But again, there were so many missing fights that the ratings are flawed for that period.
For wills he fought one of the Langford fights when Sam was 898, a McVea fight when McVea was 897, and Bill Tate at 820.

[DaveyMac]

Dempsey, maybe I didn't explain it well looking back. This is not people who were 1000 rated for their career, but 1000 rated on the day of the fight. So for most guys they are above and below the threshold as their career advances and declines.


Tony Zale 7-3

Jake LaMotta 15-10-1

Marcel Cerdan 4-1

Dick Turpin 1-2 (Vince Hawkins was his highest rated win)

Ernie Roderick 7-3

Tommy Hearns 5-2-1

Marvin Hagler 6-1-1

Roberto Duran 7-5

Hector Camacho 0-2

Oscar De La Hoya 2-3

Pernell Whitaker 2-1-1

Julio Cesar Chaves 0-2-1 (highest rated win was Edwin Rosario 880)

[DaveyMac]

Willie Pep 9-5
Sandy Saddler 6-6
Ike Williams 23-11

Beau Jack 12-8-1
Bob Montgomery 12-9

Leo Rodak 8-10-2
Sammy Angott 17-10-1

[DaveyMac]

Leotis Martin 1-1
Earnie Shavers 1-3
Ken Norton 2-4
Jimmy Young 2-2
Ron Lyle 1-2
Joe Bugner 1-3
Henry Cooper 3-4
Zora Folley 4-4-2
Oscar Bonavena 1-3

[DaveyMac]

Emile Griffith 32-11-1
Rubin Carter 5-5
Joey Archer 4-3
Gene Fullmer 13-5-3
Carmen Basilio 11-8-1
Kid Gavilan 25-14-3
Yama Bahama 3-4
Benny "Kid" Paret 4-4-1

[DaveyMac]

Chico Vejar 1-11 ( he got Vince Martinez on a night Vince started at 1061)
Luis Manuel Rodriguez 14-4
Nino Benvenuti 8-4
Sandro Mazzinghi 3-2
Isaac Logart 6-11-1
Virgil Akins 13-15

[DaveyMac]

Jimmy Bivins 19-18-1
Joey Maxim 8-15 ( I thought this would be better)
Bob Satterfield 7-10
Harold Johnson 17-7
Willie Pastrano 4-2-2
Jose Torres 4-2
Eddie Cotton 3-7
Bob Foster 4-5-1
Mike Quarry 0-2
Jerry Quarry 3-5-1
George Chuvalo 1-6
Jimmy Ellis 4-9
George Benton 8-4

[DaveyMac]

Benny Leonard 8-2-1
Lew Tendler 1-6
Fidel La Barba 3-2
Kid Chocolate 4-4
Lew Feldman 2-6
Chalky Wright 3-14
Baby Arizmendi 2-10-2
Lou Ambers 11-6-1

[Duch]

Vitali Klitschko 0-1 (only Lennox)
Andrew Golota 0-2 (yup, two times with Bowe; after the fight with Golota Lewis had 1000+ points)
Gerry Cooney 0-2
Donovan Ruddock 0-2
Tomasz Adamek 0-1
David Haye 0-1
David Tua 0-1
Roy Jones Jr. 1-3
Leon Spinks 1-3
Gerrie Coetzee 2-1

[DaveyMac]

Funny I've been trying to guess these before I do them, like what range a guy will be in (with very little success) and I would have thought Roy would be a lot more than 1-3.

[Ambling Alp II]

Little surprising about Chavez; he must have beat several guys just under 1000. Also would not have thought Zora Folley would have done as well as he did.

Virgil Akins might be the biggest surprise. He is not not a guy you hear much about. That is why (even though I am skeptical of the system) it is interesting because it makes you think that maybe there are guys out there that somehow have been overlooked.

[Duch]

Little surprising about Chavez; he must have beat several guys just under 1000. Also would not have thought Zora Folley would have done as well as he did.

Virgil Akins might be the biggest surprise. He is not not a guy you hear much about. That is why (even though I am skeptical of the system) it is interesting because it makes you think that maybe there are guys out there that somehow have been overlooked.

It depends on what you mean by "just under 1000".
He fought only once with a guy with 900+ (0-1)
And four times with guys with 800+ (4-0)

[DaveyMac]

I've been trying bunch them by contemporaries because in theory the scores would be similar for that era. For instance you look at the Jimmy Bivins/Joey Maxim group and you see Harold Johnson at 17-7 and I think that relative to the other guys in that section that has to have meaning. I'd say he was the best fighter of that LH types in that list.

Does his 17-7 have relevance to Roy Jones Jr.'s 1-3, well that I don't know. I'd suspect it's a little apples and oranges at that point.

[DaveyMac]

I'd say for me so far the biggest surprises are Carlos Monzon at a remarkable 15-0 and Chalky Wright at a paltry 3-14.
That and the fact the Wlad's highest rated opponent was Ruslan Chagaev.

Also interesting that Louis was 21-2 and Ali was 19-2, seems no matter what kind of analysis you use those two guys always end up with nothing really separating them.