Is Froch trying to play Groves at his own game?

[jeej]

In the lead up to their first fight, there's no doubt that Groves got under Froch's skin. There was a lot of game playing and general irritable behaviour that you could see had rattled Froch.

And then for Groves to propose how the fight was gonna go so heavily in his favour, and in such a cocky style, really riled Froch, as he's used to being the ultra confident fighter - and Groves basically did what he promised. Even though Froch won, it must have been both embarrassing and frustrating.

So, here we are in the lead up to the rematch and it appears that Froch is trying to reverse the roles. Enlisting his own mind games, using his leather-clad army of wind up minders, plus that shove.

Definitely looks like Froch is trying to rattle Groves. Still, besides Groves being unimpressed with the shove and also Lee Froch's mouth, I can't see it having much effect once they're in the ring. Will Froch have any surprises in the ring on the night, or does Groves still have his number?

[Maxsplit]

Having seen the first fight, it is pretty obvious that the best possible outcome for Carl is an angry Groves coming into the ring, willing and ready from trade from the first bell.

Froch is the bigger man, the stronger man and has a considerably better chin than Groves.

If Froch and in particular his brothers can wind up Groves and chip away at his ego, machismo and pride so he comes in swinging [and Groves truly does swing when hurt, almost Wilder-esque ] then their mind games will have done the job.

I truly think Groves has a lot more to lose than Froch in this fight ...

If, as I expect, Groves gets a pasting second time around - then the first fight will be reviewed very differently with hindsight and history will tell us all Howard Foster did in the first fight was stop Groves taking a sustained beating for however long it would have lasted and from ending up on the canvas.

Groves then, although substantially richer in the short term from the 2nd fight, is also at the back of SMW queue and basically damaged goods as a prospect ...

[youngrell]

I think the shove and Froch's crew/family being so uptight and full of animosity is from the fact Groves is continuing to wind them up. Groves hasn't shut up since the first fight and basically forced the fight upon Froch. Despite what Carl may say, I believe he's really p1ssed off that he has to fight Groves again.

[jeej]

He doesn't have to do anything.

He can be as pissed off as he likes, but a rematch was definitely the right thing to do.

But yeah, Froch is not a happy chap. I think there's more chance of this fight being a war from the first bell, than a cautious bout of dancing. And perhaps that does favour Froch, but will he be able to keep up? We shall see!

[youngrell]

He hasn't done it because it was the right thing, though. He's done it because he has very little option. And he hates that fact.

[jeej]

There's always options. Could have vacated the IBF belt and fought in America.

[Happy Slapper]

Having seen the first fight, it is pretty obvious that the best possible outcome for Carl is an angry Groves coming into the ring, willing and ready from trade from the first bell.

Froch is the bigger man, the stronger man and has a considerably better chin than Groves.

If Froch and in particular his brothers can wind up Groves and chip away at his ego, machismo and pride so he comes in swinging [and Groves truly does swing when hurt, almost Wilder-esque ] then their mind games will have done the job.

I truly think Groves has a lot more to lose than Froch in this fight ...

If, as I expect, Groves gets a pasting second time around - then the first fight will be reviewed very differently with hindsight and history will tell us all Howard Foster did in the first fight was stop Groves taking a sustained beating for however long it would have lasted and from ending up on the canvas.

Groves then, although substantially richer in the short term from the 2nd fight, is also at the back of SMW queue and basically damaged goods as a prospect ...

Can't agree with this at all. Froch has openly said he wouldn't/couldn't go to LH as he makes SMW with absolute ease and doesn't need to boil down at all, which I do not believe is the case with GG.

Also it was noticeable how easily GG walked Froch away from the ropes in the first fight and looked much physically stronger on the inside.

I'll give you the chin bit though.

[danamba7]

I think the shove and Froch's crew/family being so uptight and full of animosity is from the fact Groves is continuing to wind them up. Groves hasn't shut up since the first fight and basically forced the fight upon Froch. Despite what Carl may say, I believe he's really p1ssed off that he has to fight Groves again.

Carl seems in a much much better place mentally this time around. I'm not sure George will have it all his own way this time. He looked visibly rattled when Carl pushed him.

[youngrell]

There's always options. Could have vacated the IBF belt and fought in America.

And probably ridiculed.

[moogie101]

There's always options. Could have vacated the IBF belt and fought in America.

He could have done this, but how would it have looked to the general public?
Groves would have had a field day saying how he forced Froch to vacate & flee to America rather than the rematch.

Which in turn would have affected Froch's popularity & drawing power, really he needed the rematch as much as Groves.

[palooka]

I think the shove and Froch's crew/family being so uptight and full of animosity is from the fact Groves is continuing to wind them up. Groves hasn't shut up since the first fight and basically forced the fight upon Froch. Despite what Carl may say, I believe he's really p1ssed off that he has to fight Groves again.

Carl seems in a much much better place mentally this time around. I'm not sure George will have it all his own way this time. He looked visibly rattled when Carl pushed him.

If Carl is in a better frame of mind he wouldn't have his brothers squaring up to Groves, when Carl speaks he's looking to his brother - he needs reassurance. Groves didn't look the slightest rattled when Froch said; 'You didn't do anything about it did you?'; Groves was straight in his face, As soon as Groves realises that Lee Froch is there to distract him he'll be on Carl and he'll make him madder than he was before the last fight.

[stujones]

I think that it appears obvious that Carl is TRYING to play mind games says something.... the calm exterior in the actual press conference, the compliments to George the excitement about the fight and the smile - completely different to last time.

Then the refusal to do the eye to eye with George.... again start contrast to last time, if memory serves me that's when it got particularly nasty (with the breath comments etc).

Then the shove.

The body language is clear.... George has got under Carl skin.... the stuff from the first fight still hurts, Carl is trying to potray it hasn't.... the shove says it has.... George did nout wrong there!

The fact that Carl is trying to use mind games says 2 things.

1) He is focused on this fight and knows he needs every little edge to get the win.
2) The fact that he knows he needs every little edge means he is not ultra confident himself.

[danamba7]

I think the shove and Froch's crew/family being so uptight and full of animosity is from the fact Groves is continuing to wind them up. Groves hasn't shut up since the first fight and basically forced the fight upon Froch. Despite what Carl may say, I believe he's really p1ssed off that he has to fight Groves again.

Carl seems in a much much better place mentally this time around. I'm not sure George will have it all his own way this time. He looked visibly rattled when Carl pushed him.

If Carl is in a better frame of mind he wouldn't have his brothers squaring up to Groves, when Carl speaks he's looking to his brother - he needs reassurance. Groves didn't look the slightest rattled when Froch said; 'You didn't do anything about it did you?'; Groves was straight in his face, As soon as Groves realises that Lee Froch is there to distract him he'll be on Carl and he'll make him madder than he was before the last fight.

You're always going to see it with Groves tinted glasses on though. I suppose I side with Froch more often than not being local but I do like the way Groves handles the mind games (apart from the childish moaning). But in this case, I personally thought he looked a little rattled and Froch, although he pushed George, still remained calm. However I'm not sure much of this will matter when it comes down to it. I think even the opposing fans can agree Groves has the speed and 1 shot power, Froch has the stamina and iron chin, the question marks are on Carl's skills and George's stamina/chin.

[palooka]

You're always going to see it with Groves tinted glasses on though. I suppose I side with Froch more often than not being local but I do like the way Groves handles the mind games (apart from the childish moaning). But in this case, I personally thought he looked a little rattled and Froch, although he pushed George, still remained calm. However I'm not sure much of this will matter when it comes down to it. I think even the opposing fans can agree Groves has the speed and 1 shot power, Froch has the stamina and iron chin, the question marks are on Carl's skills and George's stamina/chin.[/quote]

Yeah, that's a fair comment

I agree with the strengths of both though can't for the life of me see how Froch is hoping to be better prepared this time around. He had sparred with Groves and McCracken said that they knew Groves was a hard fight to take because of his speed and power. Groves is a full 10 years younger and has taken 30 times the hammer that Groves has in his career. I honestly thought he looked shot in the first fight; I can't remember watching a world champion boxer showing skills and style like it. He was all over, his arms were down and he was just gritting his teeth and throwing his arms out - that is not a good style of boxing for your health.

[danamba7]

I think that it appears obvious that Carl is TRYING to play mind games says something.... the calm exterior in the actual press conference, the compliments to George the excitement about the fight and the smile - completely different to last time.

Then the refusal to do the eye to eye with George.... again start contrast to last time, if memory serves me that's when it got particularly nasty (with the breath comments etc).

Then the shove.

The body language is clear.... George has got under Carl skin.... the stuff from the first fight still hurts, Carl is trying to potray it hasn't.... the shove says it has.... George did nout wrong there!

The fact that Carl is trying to use mind games says 2 things.

1) He is focused on this fight and knows he needs every little edge to get the win.
2) The fact that he knows he needs every little edge means he is not ultra confident himself.

Point 2 can easily be flipped on it's head though. Most people noted how confident and reassured George was last time around, yet he felt he needed mind games in the build up to give him a better chance. Nothing to do with lack of confidence, just about gaining every little advantage possible.

[palooka]

Carl's not clever enough to get under Groves skin properly - the bad breath thing is about as sophisticated as it gets.

[Deserter]

I think that it appears obvious that Carl is TRYING to play mind games says something.... the calm exterior in the actual press conference, the compliments to George the excitement about the fight and the smile - completely different to last time.

Then the refusal to do the eye to eye with George.... again start contrast to last time, if memory serves me that's when it got particularly nasty (with the breath comments etc).

Then the shove.

The body language is clear.... George has got under Carl skin.... the stuff from the first fight still hurts, Carl is trying to potray it hasn't.... the shove says it has.... George did nout wrong there!

The fact that Carl is trying to use mind games says 2 things.

1) He is focused on this fight and knows he needs every little edge to get the win.
2) The fact that he knows he needs every little edge means he is not ultra confident himself.

I think this is the most accurate analysis of the situation that I've read to date.

[Taansend]

It reminds me of the Benn Eubank saga in which Froch (Benn) hates Groves (Eubank) whereas Groves is more indifferent towards him.

Or just plain antagonising him.

I don't think it will make any difference on the night. Froch is wound up but he's experienced enough to be calm in the ring.

I still don't have a danny about the outcome though.

[jeej]

Yeah, Stu's pretty much spot on.

Something's not quite right with Froch, cos he's eager to tell people (when he's away from Groves) that he's going to be professional, not rise to nonsense etc., then as soon as they meet he just cracks. The breath jokes, refusal to do eye to eye, the shove.

His entourage are really doing him zero favours. His brother is a prick and is in turn making Carl look a bit of a prick. Bunch of wobbly lads in leather jackets giving it the large.

Groves is obviously no saint, but he's not acting massively out of character. Think Froch will just try anything he can to destabalise things. It just looks a bit plastic from the outside, like he's trying to beat Groves at his own game.

Still, we've got two and half more months of this!

[Bard of Boxrec]

I ARKS YOU THIS

Bet on Froch stoppage.

[danamba7]

Yeah, Stu's pretty much spot on.

Something's not quite right with Froch, cos he's eager to tell people (when he's away from Groves) that he's going to be professional, not rise to nonsense etc., then as soon as they meet he just cracks. The breath jokes, refusal to do eye to eye, the shove.

His entourage are really doing him zero favours. His brother is a prick and is in turn making Carl look a bit of a prick. Bunch of wobbly lads in leather jackets giving it the large.

Groves is obviously no saint, but he's not acting massively out of character. Think Froch will just try anything he can to destabalise things. It just looks a bit plastic from the outside, like he's trying to beat Groves at his own game.

Still, we've got two and half more months of this!

Think you'll find Groves actually is a Saint!

I agree in part but I do think people are so quick to jump on any sign of weakness from Froch but seem to be oblivious to any signs from George. All in all Groves does well with the mind games but I do see a modicum of doubt creeping in so will be interesting to see how this develops over the weeks to come.

[stujones]

Good point Danamba, I think where Froch is scoring more of a victory in the mind battle this time is over his apparent renewed focus.

Remember ahead of Fight 1, Carl expressed some lack of interest when the fight was in negotiation, but Groves made it "personal" so he had to get back onto his A game. Trying to suggest that George's comments and mind games have backfired.

Then there seemed to be some conflicting reports, post fight (immediate aftermath) about Froch's preparation, some saying "Carl is ultimate professional etc" - people who know Froch quite well posting on here saying Froch was surely on his A game.

Then McCracken started to make some oxymoron hints that Froch might not have been up for it.... "Carl's the ultimate professional".... followed by "you can only go to the well in camp 100% a certain amount of times".

Now its universal that Froch took him lightly! From Eddie, Rob and Carl himself.

Maybe there are going to be some doubts, Groves was winning but it was a tough, hard fight and Carl wasn't at 100%.... whats it going to be like for George if Carl does bring his agame.

George must either not believe the stuff that Carl took him lightly (coz I don't think George did take Carl lightly) or consider irrespective of what Carl says about now will be different, there comes a time when a fighter reaches a certain age, with a new family, life's luxuries and stunning wife that even if it was King Kong against him, he might decide to hit that snooze button on the alarm.

If George starts believing that Froch has more to offer then he won't go into the ring as confident..... BUT..... on the flip side, George thinking that Carl will be better might make him more cautious in the fight, more focused on his defence and also to prepare better himself. Many think it was when George got over confident last time was when he was playing into Carl's hands.

I think it goes back to the point many made in the aftermath of fight 1, who can improve the most.... George or Carl..... the whole theme from Team Froch in the press conference was that this is clearly Carl.

I do hope I am wrong, coz I didn't like what happened last time but I am edging for Froch and I always have done. I think Groves SHOULD be the champion, but I do think Froch would have him in a rematch irrespective if George won on points or not last year.

[Mimmy]

What ever happens in the build up I feel Froch is Nigels Benn's Chris Eubank for Groves, if you know what I mean. Groves will get knocked out or lose on points, wouldnt su[rise me if it was a draw either.

[bripez]

Froch should leave his brothers at home and take his missus to future press conferences.

The sight of her in her usual "modelling outfit" would soon distract Groves.

On second thoughts, he would need to make sure she was on Mute mode otherwise everyone within a mile radius will be annoyed and not just Groves !

[freddydoesdallas]

I do hope I am wrong, coz I didn't like what happened last time but I am edging for Froch and I always have done. I think Groves SHOULD be the champion, but I do think Froch would have him in a rematch irrespective if George won on points or not last year.

I agree with most of what you have said in that last post, Froch was definitely not fully focussed on the fight (that dancing thing he did was strange) and probably took the W for granted.

However, i don't see how you can think GG should be champion. He might have gone on to win the final few rounds, he might not. The fact is he didn't due to the fight being stopped (rightly/wrongly delete as necessary) and so there is absolutely no way of knowing if he would have won!

I think Froch needs to be angry. He does seem to have a chip on his shoulder and maybe he needs that. He didn't like Bute coming over here with all the hype and fanfare from boxing writers fans despite having a much easier time of things earning good money while the rest of the SMW were going at it every few months.