Who was the best black middleweight Sugar Ray Robinson beat?

[Controversial]

Following on the the thread about legendary trainers Emmanuel Steward and Ray Arcel saying that Sugar Ray Robinson was protected.

When you look at Robinson's middleweight career it is full mainly of quality white opponents (Jake LaMotta, Rocky Graziano, Artie Levine, Bobo Olson, Gene Fullmer, Joey Maxim (LHW), Carmen Basilio and Paul Pender). Obviously the colour line was very common in that era but it wasn't uncommon for black fighters to fight other black fighters, especially those in the black Murderers Row club.

So the criteria is, the fight needs to be at middleweight, the opponent black and SRR needs to have won. What's the best fighter that fits this criteria?

[SolomonDeedes]

Can I say Randolph Turpin? He was half black.

[elmersalsa]

At middleweight? No black fighter that I could think of.

I also doubt that he beat the great Kid Gavilan at welterweight.

[Dancin' Dan]

These threads are getting old. Who cares what color they were. He fought so many of the best. Period. He hardly avoided dangerous fighters of any color. Six times against Lamotta? Fought Henry Armstrong and Kid Gavilan (twice) - hall of famers. Yes Turpin, too.

Ali is made to sound like a mediocre champ on the site..... Who do you all actually like then?!

[bodyblow999]

Mims was very good but he wasnt in his prime yet when he fought Robinson.

[Crease]

Who was the best black middleweight Sugar Ray Robinson beat?

Guys, this question has already been answered on another thread:

Who were the top middleweights when Robinson was a full time middleweight in the 1950s? LaMotta (white), Basilio (white), Fullmer (white), and Turpin (mixed heritage). Robinson fought them all at least twice. At the time there just happened to be a lot of good white middleweights.

There you are now question answered....

[Controversial]

Who was the best black middleweight Sugar Ray Robinson beat?

Guys, this question has already been answered on another thread:

Who were the top middleweights when Robinson was a full time middleweight in the 1950s? LaMotta (white), Basilio (white), Fullmer (white), and Turpin (mixed heritage). Robinson fought them all at least twice. At the time there just happened to be a lot of good white middleweights.

There you are now question answered....

So you are saying there were no good black middleweights around at the same time except Turpin?

[Dancin' Dan]

If this is all headed towards Charles Burley again - the fight never made sense nor were they in the same division for long.

Look indepth - not at color. Or even color balance it - Joey Archer for example. Sugar's last opponent - was the number one contender. He beat Dick Tiger, Holley Mims, and Hurricane Carter. He won at least won of the bouts with Emile Griffith (one was a draw, the other super close).

Carmen Basilio fought Ike Williams, Kid Galivan, Robinson, Don Jordon, Johnny Saxton, Gil Turner and also beat Billy Graham who could hang with probably any welterweight in history - purple, pink, black, white - whatever.

Light Heavy and later Heavy Joey Maxim - fought a crazy list of opponents.... Ezzard several times, Eddie Machen, Floyd Patterson, Archie Moore, Jimmy Bivins, Jersey Joe Walcott, etc. Maxim deserves a lot of credit for who he fought.....

[Controversial]

If this is all headed towards Charles Burley again - the fight never made sense nor were they in the same division for long.

Look indepth - not at color. Or even color balance it - Joey Archer for example. Sugar's last opponent - was the number one contender. He beat Dick Tiger, Holley Mims, and Hurricane Carter. He won at least won of the bouts with Emile Griffith (one was a draw, the other super close).

Carmen Basilio fought Ike Williams, Kid Galivan, Robinson, Don Jordon, Johnny Saxton, Gil Turner and also beat Billy Graham who could hang with probably any welterweight in history - purple, pink, black, white - whatever.

Light Heavy and later Heavy Joey Maxim - fought a crazy list of opponents.... Ezzard several times, Eddie Machen, Floyd Patterson, Archie Moore, Jimmy Bivins, Jersey Joe Walcott, etc. Maxim deserves a lot of credit for who he fought.....

No it isn't heading towards Burley again. As he didn't fight him Burley is irrelevant to this thread. The question is who is the best black middleweight that SRR beat?

[raylawpc]

Who was the best black middleweight Sugar Ray Robinson beat?

Guys, this question has already been answered on another thread:

Who were the top middleweights when Robinson was a full time middleweight in the 1950s? LaMotta (white), Basilio (white), Fullmer (white), and Turpin (mixed heritage). Robinson fought them all at least twice. At the time there just happened to be a lot of good white middleweights.

There you are now question answered....

So you are saying there were no good black middleweights around at the same time except Turpin?

Turpin ain't good enough for ya?

[Controversial]

Turpin ain't good enough for ya?

I didn't say anything against Turpin. He was a good fighter and decent puncher. I wouldn't expect him to be in anyones greatest middleweight lists though but a solid fighter. A few calls for Turpin then, is that the general consensus? I would probably agree with that.

[Crease]

So you are saying there were no good black middleweights around at the same time except Turpin?

No. You are saying that and putting words in my mouth. It's already been pointed out to you that the top Middleweights of the day were all white...

Hell if Robinson didn't fight them repeatedly, people like you would be coming out and accusing him of ducking them.

[Controversial]

So you are saying there were no good black middleweights around at the same time except Turpin?

No. You are saying that and putting words in my mouth. It's already been pointed out to you that the top Middleweights of the day were all white...

Hell if Robinson didn't fight them repeatedly, people like you would be coming out and accusing him of ducking them.

Wow you are really angry aren't you. I asked you a question thats all, I wasn't putting words into your mouth. So your answer is there were no good black middleweights when SRR was fighting? (thats a question btw, you can tell by the question mark at the end)

[Crease]

Wow you are really angry aren't you. I asked you a question thats all, I wasn't putting words into your mouth.

So you are saying

When you start off a question, statement or whatever else with this beginning then you are attempting to put words in people's mouths. But maybe English isn't your first language.

So your answer is there were no good black middleweights when SRR was fighting? (thats a question btw, you can tell by the question mark at the end)

No. My answer is: Why does it matter? What does the colour of a man's skin have to do with anything?

[Controversial]

Wow you are really angry aren't you. I asked you a question thats all, I wasn't putting words into your mouth.

So you are saying

When you start off a question, statement or whatever else with this beginning then you are attempting to put words in people's mouths. But maybe English isn't your first language.

So your answer is there were no good black middleweights when SRR was fighting? (thats a question btw, you can tell by the question mark at the end)

No. My answer is: Why does it matter? What does the colour of a man's skin have to do with anything?

Your original reply was "There you are now question answered...." which was a copy of someone else's reply where the only black middleweight listed was Turpin. I assumed Turpin was your answer but you accused me of putting words in your mouth. You then said all the top middleweights at that time were white. I then ask if your now saying there were no good black middleweights but your reply was 'what does it matter'. I didn't think the question was that difficult. So basically you have written a lot without giving any answer, your not an MP are you?

It's a question that has been asked about SRR by others, not just me. As an example the black murderers row were a group of black fighters who were avoided and I was surprised myself when I looked at SRR record as there was a distinct lack of top black fighters on his resume at middleweight. Considering some rank SRR as one of the greatest middleweights ever, and he too was black and the good black fighters tended to fight each other with some regularity, it seemed odd to me that SRR didn't fight many top black fighters, hence the question.

Black fighters were often overlooked and might explain why so many white fighters dominated the division. I'm not saying the white fighters were no good, far from it but I was interested to think who people thought SRR best win over a black middleweight was.

[Controversial]

Thread bump

[Ambling Alp II]

Obviously "You Know Who" has not seen this thread yet or we would have heard all about Ralph Jones for the millionth time.

A couple of things worth noting:
Robinson was already 28 when the decade started and was 38 by the time it ended. People constantly talk about Robinson as if he was in his prime in his late 30s; probably because that is when many of big fights are available on Youtube.
He had already been fighting professional for about 10 years before the 1950s started. He had beaten LaMotta 8 years before the decade started.

Outside of Robinson, the middleweight division was dominated by white fighters in the 1950s. Robinson and Turpin were not just the only black middleweight champions in the 1950s; no other black middleweight was even a #1 or #2 challenger during this time.

[Kalan]

Randy Turpin obviously was the best ... but there weren't any really great boxers at Middleweight besides Robinson in the 50's... No lightning fast slicksters -- just sort of poky Dago journeyman types like LaMotta, Castellani, Basilio, and Graziano. I'm not sure what ethnicity Fullmer was.

There was a very good Middleweight from Germany named Gustov Scholz. He came over to the US to go after a Robinson shot, but Jim Norris worked like Hell to shut him out everywhere he went. He got one fight over here and that's it.

Marcel Cerdan was fairly good but died in a plane crash while training for his rematch with LaMotta... An injured shoulder cost Cerdan the 160 Title.

Lazlo Papp was a brilliant boxer who won 3 or 4 Olympic Gold Medals. Papp came along too late for Robinson... Papp said "I stayed in the amateurs about 10 years too long or I would have beaten everybody." He did beat Ralph Jones very handily and that fight is on Youtube.. He did go undefeated.. But he never came over here because he was never offered a fight.. Jim Norris pretty much controlled the sport.

[keithmoonhangover]

Why skin colour? Why not eye colour or shoe size?

[Tomasino]

Randy Turpin obviously was the best ... but there weren't any really great boxers at Middleweight besides Robinson in the 50's... No lightning fast slicksters -- just sort of poky Dago journeyman types like LaMotta, Castellani, Basilio, and Graziano. I'm not sure what ethnicity Fullmer was.

There was a very good Middleweight from Germany named Gustov Scholz. He came over to the US to go after a Robinson shot, but Jim Norris worked like Hell to shut him out everywhere he went. He got one fight over here and that's it.

Marcel Cerdan was fairly good but died in a plane crash while training for his rematch with LaMotta... An injured shoulder cost Cerdan the 160 Title.

Lazlo Papp was a brilliant boxer who won 3 or 4 Olympic Gold Medals. Papp came along too late for Robinson... Papp said "I stayed in the amateurs about 10 years too long or I would have beaten everybody." He did beat Ralph Jones very handily and that fight is on Youtube.. He did go undefeated.. But he never came over here because he was never offered a fight.. Jim Norris pretty much controlled the sport.

What a mis-mash of Wikipedia and boxrec history this post is

Stop prentending, we know you are an imbecile

[Kalan]

Tomas a-ho, go find reading material other than boxing posts you clearly lack the mental faculties to grasp.. Try “The 3 Little Pigs” for starters idiot.

[Controversial]

Why skin colour? Why not eye colour or shoe size?

The original discussion was about SRR not fighting Burley. It then moved on to other Black Murderers row fighters having to fight each other numerous times and never really getting anywhere near a title shot. It was then pointed out that SRR didn't appear to fight many decent black fighters, which is unusual as he was black himself.

[Kalan]

It's not so much that he failed to fight top black Middleweights.. Just who were all those top black Middleweights anyway??? There weren't any.

He fought Ralph Jones and Randy Turpin... Not that they had tremendous skills -- but who exactly was he supposed to fight????

It's a little like saying Marciano ducked all the great black Heavyweights of his era... Really??? Besides Patterson, I'm not aware of any who were around.