The Larry Holmes' Heavyweight Era: 1978-85

[elmersalsa]

Give me your best insight of the Larry Holmes heavyweight division era. Some guys that he did not fight, and who could have beaten him. Some say that this era was one of the worst in the history of heavyweight boxing.

[Nile4000]

Greg Page in 1983 could've beaten Larry, who outright ducked him. So would have Pinklon Thomas in 1984, and Tony Tubbs in 1985.

[tiny_acres]

Greg Page in 1983 could've beaten Larry, who outright ducked him. So would have Pinklon Thomas in 1984, and Tony Tubbs in 1985.

Greg page lost his chance in 1982 with loss to Trevor berbick.
Then he lost to Tim Witherspoon in 1984


Holmes lost the title in 1985,and this is the only time I would of given Pinklon Thomas a chance.
The tail end of Holmes reign.

[Nile4000]

Greg Page in 1983 could've beaten Larry, who outright ducked him. So would have Pinklon Thomas in 1984, and Tony Tubbs in 1985.

Greg page lost his chance in 1982 with loss to Trevor berbick.
Then he lost to Tim Witherspoon in 1984


Holmes lost the title in 1985,and this is the only time I would of given Pinklon Thomas a chance.
The tail end of Holmes reign.

But Greg Page stated specifically before the Jimmy Young fight that he wasn't ready for a title shot, having his ranking dropped from #2 to #3 in the WBA. Then, after defeating Snipes to become Holmes' mandatory in 1983, Larry took on Frazier and Frank instead.Bad form on Larry's part.You may be right about Pinklon, though.

[Ezzard]

There's no doubt that after the Witherspoon fight Holmes took a more safety first approach to defending his title.

After a couple of easier defences, and dumping the WBC belt and legitimising the IBF, Holmes struggled with Bonecrusher...who had been outboxed by Frank Bruno for 9 rounds before landing his equaliser.

Larry was talked up after the victory over David Bey and then went to the wire with Carl Williams.

Around this time Pinklon Thomas was ranked above Holmes by KO magazine. Thomas, Page and Witherspoon all wanted to fight Larry but Holmes wanted a soft landing for his 50-0.

Thomas, Page and Spoon II would all have taken Holmes to the limit at that point in his career and I think all 3 would have beaten him. Dokes was in a mess in his personal life...

At his best Holmes was better than them all.

One fight that I would have liked to have seen was Coetzee. Gerrie had an accurate and powerful right hand...something Holmes was susceptible to. I'd always have backed Larry but wouldn't have been surprised to have seen a KD with Holmes having a better boxer than Snipes or Shavers in front of him.

[SamWise72]

The best Holmes is better than the best Thomas, but the sluggish Holmes of the first Spinks fight....maybe. I loved Pinkie, and I wish he'd got the right fights at the right time. I don't see Page doing the job though, slick boxer though he could be.

[Ezzard]

Page, Spoon and Thomas would actually have taken the fight very seriously. Page blew his chance before he got there in his defeat to Bey. Once Thomas won the title he had no chance of getting the fight.

Agree. Larry at his best was king of the 1980s. But as he slowed down there were guys who could have beaten him.

By the way...had Holmes fought and lost to Thomas/Page/Spoon2 I would have bet on him winning a rematch...which would have only improved his stock...

[SamWise72]

I dunno. Page couldn't get up for the biggest fights he actually had, so I'm not sure I believe he would have for Larry. I do agree that he had the potential to be good enough. Spoon and Thomas, I'd believe they would find their best for the fight. The Holmes defeat might have been the best Spoon ever was; that level of desire and a bit more experience, and a slowing Larry could have made the difference.

[HomicideHenry]

I dont think in all honesty nobody could have really beaten Larry at his best. The one man that I think deserved a shot at Holmes, would have been competitive with Holmes, and due to politics and money was frozen out and that was Gerrie Coetzee. Page was just too inconsistant as a fighter, though I will admit when he made his comeback in his late 30's early 40's he put up one hell of a win streak, and seemed like whatever issues he had as a young man were behind him--- its a shame, though, what happened to him in the Dale Crowe fight.

But, as stated in the Marciano Era threa, it wasnt Holmes fault that he fought in an essentially weak era in heavyweight history--- though I have little doubt in my mind that someone like Dynamite Dokes in our time would be the undisputed heavyweight champion of the world.

[Ezzard]

HH

We've just listed fighters Holmes didn't face. And fights he didn't take. Then you list a guy too. Then you say it wasn't Holmes' fault...

[Nile4000]

Can't see Coetzee giving Holmes more problems that Page, Thomas, or possibly a prime Tate could've given him.

[Dubblechin]

In early 1978, Holmes was supposed to fight Ron Lyle. But Lyle got charged with murder and Ron was replaced with Earnie Shavers. I would've liked to have seen how Holmes and Lyle's styles meshed. That would've been a good fight at that time.

Holmes and Coetzee signed to fight each other (after Coetzee knocked out Dokes), but it was postponed several times because the money never materialized. After a year of stops and starts both guys finally walked away. I would've really liked to have seen that fight, too.

I don't think Greg Page ever would've beaten Holmes. He'd have a great performance followed by a lousy one. Holmes was too disciplined. He'd have made Page look bad.

Aside from Lyle and Coetzee, the only guys I really wanted to see Holmes fight were Michael Dokes and Pinklon Thomas.

But I think Holmes would've beaten all of them nine times out of 10.

He was the best of his era.

[Nile4000]

Pinklon had a strong jab, which Dokes didn't have.Larry himself admitted when Dokes was his sparring partner that Michael could punch, but he couldn't handle his jab.

[HomicideHenry]

HH

We've just listed fighters Holmes didn't face. And fights he didn't take. Then you list a guy too. Then you say it wasn't Holmes' fault...

Well, in the case of Coetzee, I can see where it was Holmes' fault because he kept bitching about South African politics and wanting huge money, while Coetzee on the other hand just wanted to make a little more money than what he was already making as WBA champ and determine who the true top man was.

[dempseyfire]

Give me your best insight of the Larry Holmes heavyweight division era. Some guys that he did not fight, and who could have beaten him. Some say that this era was one of the worst in the history of heavyweight boxing.

The period 1978-80 but the early 80s got better with a new influx of talent that took to boxing following Ali (Page, Berbick, Thomas, Witherspoon, Snipes, Smith, Tucker etc.) Compared to today it was a golden age.

None could have beaten Holmes before 1983.

[Ambling Alp II]

Even in the late 1970s you had Norton and Shavers.

There were many guys in the 1980s that were very close. Most were inconsistent. We naturally think of the WBS champions but Carl Williams and Renaldo Snipes were right there as well.

Holmes did get some breaks; both the Norton and the Witherspoon fights could have gone the other way; he was knocked down and hurt by Snipes and the fight was not stopped, yet Snipes was not allowed to continue when he didn't seem to be as hurt.
The Williams fight was a very bad decision.

Holmes fought some of the top guys and didn't fight others. After winning the title, he wouldn't have lost to any that he missed had he fought them in his prime.

[Ezzard]

My guess is that a fit Tim would always go 50-50 with Larry...agree on the rest...

[Ezzard]

The 1980s was comparable to today's division.

[Ambling Alp II]

Outside of Shavers that isn't very impressive.

[dempseyfire]

The 1980s was comparable to today's division.

Today is far, far worse.

[Ambling Alp II]

I have to diagree with you on this one dempseyfire. I think it is far, far, far, far, worse.

There is no one remotely close to the level of Holmes and Tyson.

Witherspoon, Thomas, Page, Dokes, etc. had performances that ranged from awful to great.

The top heavyweights now have had performances that range from awful to mediocre.

[SteveO]

Look at who Larry defeated on his way to a Championship Bout..
* March 25, 1978
* Earnie Shavers ~ 54-6-1 {52 KO's}.........{W Dec 12}
* The hardest punching Heavyweight 'Knockout Artist'
* Coming off a 'razor-thin' 15-Round Decision Loss to Muhammad Ali for the Heavyweight Championship {September 29, 1977}.
* #2 WBC-ranked/#2 WBA-ranked

I wouldn't call it a 'razor thin' decision loss to Ali:
1977-09-29 : Muhammad Ali 225 lbs beat Earnie Shavers 211¼ lbs by UD in round 15 of 15 Location: Madison Square Garden, New York, New York, USA
Referee: Johnny LoBianco 9-5
Judge: Eva Shain 9-6
Judge: Tony Castellano 9-6
Unofficial AP scorecard: 10-5 Ali
Unofficial UPI scorecard: 8-6-1 Ali

[Giancarlo]

The 1980s was comparable to today's division.

Today is far, far worse.

True.

[HomicideHenry]

I had Shavers narrowly beat Ali I think 8-7 if I remember correctly

Following that fight MSG banned Muhammad Ali from ever fighting there again, because it was painfully obvious that he lost all his reflexes and speed.

[Nile4000]

Look at who Larry defeated on his way to a Championship Bout..
* March 25, 1978
* Earnie Shavers ~ 54-6-1 {52 KO's}.........{W Dec 12}
* The hardest punching Heavyweight 'Knockout Artist'
* Coming off a 'razor-thin' 15-Round Decision Loss to Muhammad Ali for the Heavyweight Championship {September 29, 1977}.
* #2 WBC-ranked/#2 WBA-ranked

I wouldn't call it a 'razor thin' decision loss to Ali:
1977-09-29 : Muhammad Ali 225 lbs beat Earnie Shavers 211¼ lbs by UD in round 15 of 15 Location: Madison Square Garden, New York, New York, USA
Referee: Johnny LoBianco 9-5
Judge: Eva Shain 9-6
Judge: Tony Castellano 9-6
Unofficial AP scorecard: 10-5 Ali
Unofficial UPI scorecard: 8-6-1 Ali

So those scorecards mean the bout wasn't close.

Earnie gave Muhammad a 'right-hand' beating.

* The bout was all 'Even' after 8-Rounds {4-4-0}.
* Muhammad won Rounds 9, 10, 11 and 12 - but he still took heavy punches.
* Muhammad was up {8-4-0} after 12-Rounds.
* Earnie gave Muhammad a good scare in Rounds 13 and 14.
* That made it {8-6-0} after 14.
* Lets not forget that Earnie won the first-half of Round 15 big, and had Muhammad 'out-on-his-feet'.

Greg Aiello of UPI, still called it.... "Another Disputed Decision For Muhammad Ali"

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Shavers should've won 8-6-1