1970-1977 Middleweight Division The Monzon Era

[Tomasino]

Could you please tell me how good Emile Griffith was with his skills, left jab, left hook, right hand, power punch, power, speed, body attack, strength, stamina, durability, footwork, ring general, defense and chin?

[scorpio83]

Il Duce, would you please tell me how good Emile Griffith was that I was asking about before you summarize the title fight between Monzon and Napoles?

[Giancarlo]

Il Duce, would you please tell me how good Emile Griffith was that I was asking about before you summarize the title fight between Monzon and Napoles?

[scorpio83]

Thanks Il Duce I appreciate it and continue posting the Monzon vs. Napoles fight.

[BoxBuzz]

Duce could you publish your own super accurate and certified "goodness" scale perhaps based on a mathematical formula so we could know for certain just how much "goodness" any specific fighter in history actually possessed?


Thanks in advance for your assured cooperation in this matter.

[elmersalsa]

I have seen the fight again, and it was a MASSACRE. I mean, there was nothing that the great Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles could do. If he attack full force, he would get tied up. If he tried to box, the great Carlos Monzon would put that long left jab in his face. And if he tried to counter punch, Monzon's right hand got in there first before Mantequilla knew it. I mean, King Carlos was exceptional. The best middleweight ever. He was not quick. He did not had great footwork, but he had that awareness, logic and cleverness. Maybe one of the most clever fighters that ever been inside the ring. He knew what he was doing in that ring. Nothing bothers him. A cool assassin. I don't see any other middleweight in history beating him. You could bring any of them: Robinson, Greb, Hopkins, or Hagler. Monzon would beat them all.

He was a thinking's man's fighter. Was mentally strong as well as physical strong. What a a fighter.

The fight was well stopped. Mantequilla could not withstand further punishment. It was an art of beautiful boxing cleverness by The Shotgun.

[scorpio83]

elmersala, Napoles have no business fighting Monzon who was two divisions higher weight class than the great welterweight champion. Napoles should have challenged for the junior middleweight title, but instead he took a big paycheck to fight Monzon because he was the bigger name than champions who were 1 division lower than him.

[bodyblow999]

I have seen the fight again, and it was a MASSACRE. I mean, there was nothing that the great Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles could do. If he attack full force, he would get tied up. If he tried to box, the great Carlos Monzon would put that long left jab in his face. And if he tried to counter punch, Monzon's right hand got in there first before Mantequilla knew it. I mean, King Carlos was exceptional. The best middleweight ever. He was not quick. He did not had great footwork, but he had that awareness, logic and cleverness. Maybe one of the most clever fighters that ever been inside the ring. He knew what he was doing in that ring. Nothing bothers him. A cool assassin. I don't see any other middleweight in history beating him. You could bring any of them: Robinson, Greb, Hopkins, or Hagler. Monzon would beat them all.

He was a thinking's man's fighter. Was mentally strong as well as physical strong. What a a fighter.

The fight was well stopped. Mantequilla could not withstand further punishment. It was an art of beautiful boxing cleverness by The Shotgun.

If a near light heavyweight beating a blown up lightweight is proof of greatness then Monzon was truly great the night he beat Napoles. Otherwise it was just a mismatch.

[giacomino]

I have seen the fight again, and it was a MASSACRE. I mean, there was nothing that the great Jose "Mantequilla" Napoles could do. If he attack full force, he would get tied up. If he tried to box, the great Carlos Monzon would put that long left jab in his face. And if he tried to counter punch, Monzon's right hand got in there first before Mantequilla knew it. I mean, King Carlos was exceptional. The best middleweight ever. He was not quick. He did not had great footwork, but he had that awareness, logic and cleverness. Maybe one of the most clever fighters that ever been inside the ring. He knew what he was doing in that ring. Nothing bothers him. A cool assassin. I don't see any other middleweight in history beating him. You could bring any of them: Robinson, Greb, Hopkins, or Hagler. Monzon would beat them all.

He was a thinking's man's fighter. Was mentally strong as well as physical strong. What a a fighter.

The fight was well stopped. Mantequilla could not withstand further punishment. It was an art of beautiful boxing cleverness by The Shotgun.

If a near light heavyweight beating a blown up lightweight is proof of greatness then Monzon was truly great the night he beat Napoles. Otherwise it was just a mismatch.

Yes, a six-pound weight difference is the same as a "blown-up lightweight" fighting a light heavyweight.
Kinda hard to declare Napoles a "blown up lightweight" when he'd been welterweight champion for five or six years and had beaten the best at 147. Anyone who has seen the fight can see Monzon had a natural size advantage, but it wasn't as much as in Chavez vs Martinez and Martinez won 11 rounds vs Jr.

[elmersalsa]

It seems to me that the great Carlos Monzon was too big for any other middleweight. I cannot see no other middleweight beating him. He was clever, cool under pressure and could beat you with his mind, too. Like the greats Sugar Ray Leonard and Gene Tunney, it was one of his greatest assets: Using the mind in the ring. But the difference between him with Tunney and Leonard, was that he was not as quick as those guys, but he could use all of his physical attributes and knew how to pace himself.

[scorpio83]

Il Duce, tell me about the end of the fight.

[elmersalsa]

Carlos Monzon - Jose Napoles

Aftermath

"Unimpressive Domination"

Though Carlos Monzon won, his performance was 'not' praised by the Boxing Press.

Say what???

[scorpio83]

Why did Tony Mundine got the title shot against Monzon despite his knockout loss to "Bad" Bennie Briscoe, who instead fought Rodrigo Valdez for the vacant WBC Middleweight Title?

[scorpio83]

Thanks Il Duce, it does make sense why Mundine got the title shot against Monzon by winning 3 fights after losing to "Bad" Bennie Briscoe. You know a prime middleweight "Bad" Bennie Briscoe would have been middleweight champion in today division and even walking through GGG's punches and making him looked "Bad". Would you agree?

[BoxBuzz]

Lot of info on Monzon....gotta hand it to ya, Ducelberg, you do know how to dig!

Some know pay dirt, from donkey dumplings. So I'd leave that part to others.

But never put down that shovel!

[scorpio83]

I disagreed Il Duce. If you say that Bennie was a small middleweight standing at 5'8", then Harry Greb, Tony Zale, Marcel Cerdan, Jake La Motta, Gene Fullmer and Dick Tiger were small middleweights as well because they stood at the same height as Briscoe.

Most of the fans including me acknowledged "Bad" Bennie as an accomplishment middleweight who fought nearly everybody in his era and duck no one. Bennie outgrew the junior middleweight division and was more comfortable in the middleweight division. He might have weight problems struggling to make the junior middleweight limit in the 60s and would be weight drained in 1973. Also, he might have not being interested in the 154 lb title. I respect your opinion and I will not change your opinion. Thanks.

[scorpio83]

I always felt that 'Bad Bennie' would have been a great Light-Middleweight. Bennie was really a small 5' 8" Middleweight.

Bennie probably could have held the 154 lb. Title anywhere from {1966 thru 1973} without a problem, and still challenged
for the Middleweight Championship a few times.

How about a Bennie Briscoe vs. Jose Napoles {anywhere from 1970 thru 1973} for the Light-Middleweight Championship.

I disagreed Il Duce. If you say that Bennie was a small middleweight standing at 5'8", then Harry Greb, Tony Zale, Marcel Cerdan, Jake La Motta, Gene Fullmer and Dick Tiger were small middleweights as well because they stood at the same height as Briscoe.

Most of the fans including me acknowledged "Bad" Bennie as an accomplishment middleweight who fought nearly everybody in his era and duck no one. Bennie outgrew the junior middleweight division and was more comfortable in the middleweight division. He might have weight problems struggling to make the junior middleweight limit in the 60s and would be weight drained in 1973. Also, he might have not being interested in the 154 lb title. I respect your opinion and I will not change your opinion. Thanks.

[scorpio83]

I disagreed Il Duce. If you say that Bennie was a small middleweight standing at 5'8", then Harry Greb, Tony Zale, Marcel Cerdan, Jake La Motta, Gene Fullmer and Dick Tiger were small middleweights as well because they stood at the same height as Briscoe.

Most of the fans including me acknowledged "Bad" Bennie as an accomplishment middleweight who fought nearly everybody in his era and duck no one. Bennie outgrew the junior middleweight division and was more comfortable in the middleweight division. He might have weight problems struggling to make the junior middleweight limit in the 60s and would be weight drained in 1973. Also, he might have not being interested in the 154 lb title. I respect your opinion and I will not change your opinion. Thanks.

[BoxBuzz]

Mr. Scorpio

I tend to disagree here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtMV44yoXZ0&feature=kp

[scorpio83]

Thanks Il Duce for the debate whether if "Bad" Bennie Briscoe was a great uncrowned middleweight champion or not. However, I agree with you that Emile Griffith would have been a great junior middleweight champion and would whip Kim, Mazzinghi, Wajima and other great junior middleweights in his time.

[scorpio83]

Il Duce, I would please like to know how good Tony Licata was like I always ask?

[scorpio83]

How good was Licata's left jab, left hook, right hand, power punch even though he didn't have a big punch, body attack, strength, stamina, durability, ring general, defense and chin?

[BoxBuzz]

I do appreciate this thread. And I have very little that I have found to counter your info thus far.

Though I am hesitant to simply accept it all. I do follow up and verify what I can...and so far so good.


Your objective "goodness" scale is always a hoot. Some really disrespected Licata.....and thought he had no business in there with Monzon. Despite his unique record (equal to Monzon's ) of defeating every man he ever faced...hmm maybe there was a draw that he did not settle....so let's say that he either beat or fought to a draw every man he ever faced (to that point in time) Can I be considered an expert if my butt was in the seats that night? If so...I'd be happy to comment on this fight sometime. Based on my very faulty memory.

The main theme of my memory was that Monzon was a rather cruel fighter. And once in charge, he had the persona of someone experimenting with a laboratory mouse. Far more interested in enjoying the fight, and the attention of the crowd, than ending the fight. Which seemed easily within his reach to do so in this case.

With Griffith and Briscoe and maybe Napoles I suspect he was actually in a fight. But on the night with Licata, no matter how you interpret the film he was not stressed at anytime. In fact I was shocked at the impression I got being there, vs what I saw/see on film in this fight. It does not capture the full feeling of just how robotic, mechanical, non emotional Monzon was. When he got hit, it was as if it meant nothing to him. And each and every strike he delivered appeared to be with lightening speed thought and typical precision. You could see the wheels turning in this guys head. And whether you can tell our not by the film it took him about 3 minute to completely figure this guy out, and he just went about disassembling him. Like a toy he was putting away for later use. lol. He seemed willing to accept some nonsense from his opponent in the spirit of almost enjoyment. It was a bit freakishly odd. Maybe it's jusy my eccentricity, but I was not surprised to find that he had the ability to murder someone.

This is where I learned best the HUGE difference between being at a fight, and watching a film.

Eyewitness accounts, when given from a disinterested viewpoint far far outweigh what the films tell us IMHO.

[scorpio83]

Thanks Il Duce I appreciate it. BTW, Emile Griffith was 36 not 34 when Tony Licata beat him 2 days after Griffith's 36th birthday. Also, why Monzon took 8 months after slaughtering Napoles until he finally defended his title against Mundine?

[BoxBuzz]

Dr. Box Buzz

I appreciate your contribution.

But we should stay within the 'Time Frame' here, as to not confuse.

One may ask >
What was the real reason that Carlos Monzon did not want to fight Rodrigo Valdes in May/June 1974 ?

An Argentinian 'Sex Pot'

Not sure she trumps Ursula...but she just might lol

Il Duce....you use the term "as not to confuse".....when did this value become a priority for you?

I thought confusion was pretty much the core of your mission statement. Did I get this wrong?)