"We All Beat Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali"

[tiny_acres]

The List

'Five Convincing Beatings'

* Joe Frazier ........ Gave Muhammad Ali a thorough beating, and deposited him on his 'Coolie'.

* Ken Norton ........ Gave Muhammad Ali a thorough beating, and 'shattered' his jaw as well.

* Leon Spinks ....... An undersized Heavyweight and 7-Bout Pro, dismantled Muhammad Ali.

* Larry Holmes ..... Gave Muhammad Ali 'the beating of all beatings'.

* Trevor Berbick ... Took it easy on Muhammad Ali, while laughing throughout most of the bout.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

'Others Bouts That Were Losses As Well'

* Alonzo Johnson .... Hometown Decision

* Doug Jones ......... Horrible Decision

* Henry Cooper I .... "Oh look at this, a ripped glove", Angelo Dundee.

* Ken Norton II ...... El Stinkeroo Decision

* Jimmy Young ....... Muhammad Ali landed only '1' halfway decent punch in the entire 15-Rounds.

* Ken Norton III ..... '3 Blind Mice' rally to steal the Decision for Muhammad Ali.

Slow day at the office?

[tiny_acres]

Why the hell do I read his posts?

[DaveyMac]

Funny though, nobody devotes their life to trolling the boxrec forum insulting Fred Lewis.

So who really was The Greatest?

[DaveyMac]

The real story here was the Fred Lewis was a professional boxer at the time and had been for years but didn't bother to let any of the Amateur folks know.
And even as a seasoned pro with at least 17 pro fights under his belt he still couldn't beat the young amateur.
Thanks goodness Ali won otherwise we'd have sent a pro to the Olympics only to have his medal stripped.

[BoxBuzz]

Here's a thought on the Young fight.


Many fight historians have written that Young made Ali miss more often than did any other opponent. At close quarters, however, where Ali's strength was dominant, Young would turn passive. He retreated whenever possible, and often kept his head ducked very low to avoid serious blows when Ali would fight from the inside (the notion is that boxers are not permitted to hit in the back of the head, and due to how low Jimmy ducked there was really no way for either fighter to hit the other until the ref would restart the fight, but at that point Ali wasn't on the inside anymore), and on several occasions intentionally put his head or upper body out of the ring to compel the referee to separate the fighters. To some, Young's was a brilliant strategy of neutralizing his opponent's strengths and forcing the bout to be fought on his own terms; to others, it was boring and unworthy of a championship bout, with some detractors terming it "the coward's rope-a-dope."

and yet many consider it a winning performance on Young's part.

[BoxBuzz]

Cmon...duce....the rules is the rules.

He took money for the gig. That's a deal buster.

.....unless your fudgin' things just to make a point based on a pet bias.


oh....wait...never mind.

[Controversial]

Lewis won the Arizona state light heavyweight tile in 1957. I'm not sure how a pro managed to fight as an amateur in the Olympic Trials, I guess he just failed to disclose it. His bio says -

Shortly after joining the Air Force, Lewis joined the Air Force boxing team. He later won the 1963 National AAU Light heavyweight (178-pound) title, and a Pan-American Games title, before it was discovered that he had fought professionally before joining the Air Force. Lewis resumed his pro career in 1966 after he returned from his second tour of duty in the during the American Vietnam War. Lewis retired as an American Air Force Sergeant.

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_ ... &cat=boxer

He had 23 pro fights from 1956-58

17 wins (11 KOs)
4 losses (3 by stoppage)
1 Draw
1 NC

He then started again and fought between 1966-73 where his final pro record was

55 fights
----------
37 wins (24 KOs)
16 losses (6 by stoppage)
1 draw
1 NC

[DaveyMac]

Davey Boy

I think that you're splitting hairs with this one.

According to Fred Lewis, who grew up in Oklahoma.

He started boxing in 1953, and had boxed as an Amateur thru 1956.

But he needed money, so in June 1956 {Age; 21} he started fighting in 'Smoker Bouts' where he got anywhere
between $50 and $125, depending on the opponent.

According to Fred Lewis these were little more than 'unsupervised bouts' that he took almost one every 2-Weeks
from June thru December 1956.

As Fred Lewis stated, there were a bunch of Amateur Boxers joining in during these 'Smoker Bouts', just to make
some spending Money or 'weekend' Drinking Money.

Duce Boy.

Tell it to Jim Thorpe.

No doubt if Fred had gone to the Olympics it would have come out and he would have been stripped.

Oh, and he fought until Dec of 1958, not 1956, so 2 and a half years not six months, but hey don't start letting the facts get in the way of your arguments now it would be a real let down if you did.

[Controversial]

What a cheat is probably more apt.

[Controversial]

So in hindsight an 18 year old Ali beating a 25 year old Lewis who had 23 pro fights under his belt and had previously done 12 rounds to win the state LHW title, wasn't so bad after all.

[Giancarlo]

Il Duce busted for lying.

Again.

[Flump]

Here's a thought on the Young fight.


Many fight historians have written that Young made Ali miss more often than did any other opponent. At close quarters, however, where Ali's strength was dominant, Young would turn passive. He retreated whenever possible, and often kept his head ducked very low to avoid serious blows when Ali would fight from the inside (the notion is that boxers are not permitted to hit in the back of the head, and due to how low Jimmy ducked there was really no way for either fighter to hit the other until the ref would restart the fight, but at that point Ali wasn't on the inside anymore), and on several occasions intentionally put his head or upper body out of the ring to compel the referee to separate the fighters. To some, Young's was a brilliant strategy of neutralizing his opponent's strengths and forcing the bout to be fought on his own terms; to others, it was boring and unworthy of a championship bout, with some detractors terming it "the coward's rope-a-dope."

and yet many consider it a winning performance on Young's part.

I can never score this fight for Young either, it's still frustrating to watch because Young should have beaten him out of sight, but he cheated himself with his tactics. I did have Young edging Norton.

[Controversial]

Is there a point to this thread? We have discovered that Lewis was a former pro and was trying to cheat the system. Just as well Ali got the decision otherwise Lewis would've been found out and stripped anyway. If anything trying to build Lewis up is making Ali's win all the more impressive.

[Controversial]

Is there a point to this thread? We have discovered that Lewis was a former pro and was trying to cheat the system. Just as well Ali got the decision otherwise Lewis would've been found out and stripped anyway. If anything trying to build Lewis up is making Ali's win all the more impressive.

Why you lack of depth fool.

This is about Fred Lewis, who is a fantastic human being and a giving man.

No need to be abusive, was I, or have I ever been abusive to you?

I'm sure Lewis was a fantastic man, just a cheat.

[tiny_acres]

Getting Things Straight,

Fred Lewis was born in April 1935 {The Gazette > Colorado Springs, Colorado}

After losing in the February 1956 Oklahoma Golden Gloves {Middleweight} > Fred Lewis married his Sweetheart 'Jean'.

The 21 year-old, in need of money to support his family, moved to Phoenix, Arizona in April 1956.

Fred wanted to continue with his Amateur Career, but he needed some extra money.

He hooked up with his friend/boxer > Nathan Ish at the Phoenix Boxing Club.

Fred Lewis >
"I never had any intentions of turning Professional. I really didn't like Boxing, as I liked Football, Baseball and Basketball
much better. But, there was an opportunity to make an extra $50 or $75 {here and there} in these little 4-Round and 6-Round
Preliminary bouts and 'Smokers'."

"It doesn't sound like much, but $75 in Phoenix, Arizona in 1956 was a lot of money."

I remember back as a kid.When the old timers in the gym would talk about fighting as an amateur and then
get a smoker fight for 10-30 bucks at a local bar the same week.
It was a common practice way back when,and i am talking way before Ali's time.
Money was hard to come by and they had to do what they had to do.
I do not fault them.

[BoxBuzz]

Il Duce busted for lying.

Again.

Does he lie? Or does he "create"?

[BoxBuzz]

Is there a point to this thread? We have discovered that Lewis was a former pro and was trying to cheat the system. Just as well Ali got the decision otherwise Lewis would've been found out and stripped anyway. If anything trying to build Lewis up is making Ali's win all the more impressive.

Why you lack of depth fool.

This is about Fred Lewis, who is a fantastic human being and a giving man.

Then show respect for this good human being (Lewis,) who would not approve of your disrespectful attitude toward those who simply disagree.

Do not call others names again from the back seat. You don't want me to come back there.

Fair warning.

[BoxBuzz]

Tiny-Acres,

Is 100% correct.

Many Southwest Boxers {Oklahoma, New Mexico, Arizona and West Texas} would venture into Mexico and
take bouts in the 'Bull Ring' Circuit.

The pay was generally good. And if the fans liked the action, they would throw 'coins' into the Ring.

Also, there were many 'Smoker Bouts' in Mesa, Tucson and Phoenix {Arizona}, as well as in {New Mexico}.

Many Amateurs took these {$50 and $100} bouts, and maintained there Amateur Ranking.

No Harm - No Foul

I call bullshit....

This is disingenuous at it's best. In this context, the foul is big. And furthermore...YOU KNOW IT.

Not that it means you'll acknowledge it.

[tiny_acres]

Tiny-Acres,

Is 100% correct.

Many Southwest Boxers {Oklahoma, New Mexico, Arizona and West Texas} would venture into Mexico and
take bouts in the 'Bull Ring' Circuit.

The pay was generally good. And if the fans liked the action, they would throw 'coins' into the Ring.

Also, there were many 'Smoker Bouts' in Mesa, Tucson and Phoenix {Arizona}, as well as in {New Mexico}.

Many Amateurs took these {$50 and $100} bouts, and maintained there Amateur Ranking.

No Harm - No Foul

I would not go so far as to say no harm no foul.
I just was pointing out that several fighters did this.fighting what i would classify
as semi-pro bar room brawls in a ring.
I am talking about depression era or just post depression era fighters that did just that.
By the late 50's to early 60's the economy was good enough to not justify this.

[BoxBuzz]

....and, his record goes a little beyond what could be classified as bar room brawls....some were rather significant and with some positive consequences in his behalf.

[DaveyMac]

Yeah it's not like he had one fight, he had at least 23, and probably had 15-20 more that we don't know about. And these were professional enough fights that they were in the newspaper or there would be no record of them so it's not like they happened in some guys basement with ten people watching.

And frankly 50-125 dollars in the 50's was a helluva lot of money. There are tons of guys today in the USA fighting for 500-600 a night and I guarantee you that is way less than 50-125 dollars was in 1956.

He was a pro.
He fought an amateur and lost and thank God for the USA that he did.

[BoxBuzz]

So...are you saying that a bunch of different fighters claimed HIS name, and ran up his record while assuming his name? And laid all that reputation on the poor boy to inherit unfairly?


Yes....I see now......he was railroaded.

Good point.

[DaveyMac]

So...are you saying that a bunch of different fighters claimed HIS name, and ran up his record while assuming his name? And laid all that reputation on the poor boy to inherit unfairly?


Yes....I see now......he was railroaded.

Good point.

C'mon Man,

Everybody knows that Cassius Clay fought a 'Smoker Bout' with Amos Johnson in 1959, after the Pan Am Games.

A 4-Rounder, where both boys received 'gratuities'.

When you say "boys" wtf do you mean?
Do you have any idea the depths of your racism?

[DaveyMac]

DaveyMac is my name nitwit.

[DaveyMac]

Really?
The guy who chose the nickname of a fascist dictator who fought with Hitler as his screen name is lecturing me on where I need to put a space in mine?