Arcel and Steward said Ray Robinson was protected

[cfang]

Firstly, great post by amblin' alp. Robinson fought middles in his welter years but it was the exception rather than the rule and you can't fault fighters for not fighting out of their weight class, especially when he fought lamotta so often and at the time Jake was almost certainly the best middle there was.

True he didn't fight Burley but it's fair to say that after all the years not seeing him, when I first saw Burley I could see why. Great fighter and an all time great one at that but Burley wasn't exactly box office was he? Quite a cautious fighter and too good for his own good in a way. In particular when in the 40s when the public preferred more of an all action style. It made no sense to fight him. Boxing is about the money and I'm sure if a big fight in stadium to fight burley in the late 40s was on offer with a huge purse SRR would have jumped at the chance but there really wasn't. It is professional boxing after all.

I think people are trying to pick holes in the record of the greatest fighter of all time but SRR went 131 fights with only 1 loss! In his first year as a pro he beat a former, current and future world champion. Doesn't sound protected to me!

[Controversial]

Of course you can't fight everyone. If Burley was the only top black fighter SRR missed then I'd agree that the fight just never came about. However to have such a long career with as many fights as SRR had and not fight any of these guys seems strange to me. Does it not seem odd that all the top black welterweights and middleweights would fight each other several times, often having to give weight away (some even fighting guys like LaMotta) yet SRR didn't fight any of them with the exception of Wade who was well past his best.

Okay, let's get in to specifics here. I'm willing to go on along with you on this. Which top black Middleweight fighters did Robinson avoid? And Ray won the Middleweight title five times from 1951-60, so let's focus in on those years.

Without being cheeky or argumentative, you have criticised others for not agreeing with you. So take this opportunity here to make a strong case for yourself. We know that you agre going to say Charley Burley - but who else?

I haven't criticised anyone for not agreeing with me, I'm only posting my opinion. People are arguing against it, I'm defending it thats all. I think I'm right, others think I'm wrong, thats life. I don't think SRRs team avoided anyone from the years you listed. They only fighter I think they avoided was Burley.

[Controversial]

Why do you feel the need to point out the race of every white guy, when the black guys were ducking him too?

It was more a dig at the era, just highlighting how white fighters were given title shots or they fought SRR and fighters like Burley were ignored. I'm not sure if other black guys avoided Burley, it just seemed to be the white champs, white contenders and SRRs team in my opinion.

[Ambling Alp II]

I think that white fighters got the benefit of the doubt when it came to title shots. However, if a black fighter was clearly the most deserving challenger, he usually (not always) got a title shot.

Kid Gavilan got a chance against Robinson for the welterweight title. He then got a chance at the welterweight title after Robinson gave up the welterweight title to go after the middleweight title. He even got a very controversial decision over a white opponent, (Billy Graham) in a welterweight title fight.
Tommy Bell got a title shot vs Robinson for the vacant welterweight title.

As for Burley, he did fight some of the best white fighters. He won 2 of 3 from Zivic, and had a draw with Georgie Abrams.
He fought some of the best black opponents as well. He lost to Bivins, was 0-2 vs Charles, 3-3 vs Holman Williams and beat Moore.

Something else that needs to be pointed out is World War II. Tony Zale didn't defend the middleweight title against anyone from the end of 1941 to 1946. That hurt Burley, other black contenders, and white contenders for that matter.

In the 1950s, the middleweight division just happened to be have some great white fighters. LaMotta, Basilio (after moving up), Fullmer, and Giardello. Though he retired for a couple of years, Robinson fought them all, as well as Randy Turpin (who had black and white parents).

You just can't fight everyone Basilio was mad that he didn't get a 3rd fight vs Robinson, Giardello complained that he didn't get a title shot vs Robinson. Yet who fought the best competition in the 1940s and 1950s? It's not even close. It was Robinson.

[Chuck1052]

It may be that Charley Burley didn't have a right manager. Look what happened to Jersey Joe Walcott's career when he had Felix Bocchicchio as his manager. It may be that Bocchiccho had a shady past, but Walcott's career was in the doldrums without him.

- Chuck Johnston

[Crease]

In the 1950s, the middleweight division just happened to be have some great white fighters. LaMotta, Basilio (after moving up), Fullmer, and Giardello.

First off I think this is an excellent post. And the above point cannot be overstated. The fact of the matter was in the 50s, the Middleweight Division's top guys were white. Now, it doesn't matter to me what colour a man's skin is, nor should this even come in to the conversation - but there's nothing unhealthy about saying things the way they are. And when Robinson was spending the decade fighting the bigger guys, they all happened to be white...

Though he retired for a couple of years, Robinson fought them all, as well as Randy Turpin (who had black and white parents).

You just can't fight everyone Basilio was mad that he didn't get a 3rd fight vs Robinson, Giardello complained that he didn't get a title shot vs Robinson. Yet who fought the best competition in the 1940s and 1950s? It's not even close. It was Robinson.

Well said.

[elmersalsa]

In the 1950s, the middleweight division just happened to be have some great white fighters. LaMotta, Basilio (after moving up), Fullmer, and Giardello.

First off I think this is an excellent post. And the above point cannot be overstated. The fact of the matter was in the 50s, the Middleweight Division's top guys were white. Now, it doesn't matter to me what colour a man's skin is, nor should this even come in to the conversation - but there's nothing unhealthy about saying things the way they are. And when Robinson was spending the decade fighting the bigger guys, they all happened to be white...

Though he retired for a couple of years, Robinson fought them all, as well as Randy Turpin (who had black and white parents).

You just can't fight everyone Basilio was mad that he didn't get a 3rd fight vs Robinson, Giardello complained that he didn't get a title shot vs Robinson. Yet who fought the best competition in the 1940s and 1950s? It's not even close. It was Robinson.

Well said.

NO no no...It was the great Ezzard Charles by far.

[Crease]

I don't think SRRs team avoided anyone from the years you listed.

But those were the years when Ray was campaigning in the Middleweight division. And a big deal has been made about Robinson avoiding black Middleweights:

In a way, the great Sugar Ray Robinson was protected. Some fighters that he should have fought in his own weight class, he did not fight: Charley Burley, Holman Williams, Cocoa Kid, Eddie Booker,

And Elmer has been your main ally all throughout this lengthy discussion. But to bring it directly back to you, your the guy who asked this question:

Who do people think the best black welterweight and the best black middleweight SRR beat was?

The truth is I asked you a trick question when I said:

Which top black Middleweight fighters did Robinson avoid? And Ray won the Middleweight title five times from 1951-60, so let's focus in on those years.
We know that you agre going to say Charley Burley - but who else?

I knew that Burley had retired in 1950 - and that Robinson never won the World Middleweight title until 1951...

So this impression that you and Elmer are making of Sugar Ray being a World Champion who was ducking Burley and a few of the other Murderer's row guys just is not factual.

And lastly you one of your responses to me was:

They only fighter I think they avoided was Burley.

Yet later on the same page, you said:

However, who specifically were the great black middleweights during this era that Robinson didn't fight?

Charley Burley, Cocoa Kid (who dropped SRR in sparring) and Bert Lytell off the top of my head

Can't you see that there's a hint of you contradicting yourself here?

[Crease]

NO no no...It was the great Ezzard Charles by far.

Elmer, let me ask you something here... Are you deliberately being provocative?

You have spent your time dismissing and disregarding others when they get in to this debate with you. It's VERY annoying.

And please stop repeating yourself, even you friend is saying it:

We are going around in circles

[Controversial]

I don't think SRRs team avoided anyone from the years you listed.

But those were the years when Ray was campaigning in the Middleweight division. And a big deal has been made about Robinson avoiding black Middleweights:

In a way, the great Sugar Ray Robinson was protected. Some fighters that he should have fought in his own weight class, he did not fight: Charley Burley, Holman Williams, Cocoa Kid, Eddie Booker,

And Elmer has been your main ally all throughout this lengthy discussion. But to bring it directly back to you, your the guy who asked this question:

Who do people think the best black welterweight and the best black middleweight SRR beat was?

The truth is I asked you a trick question when I said:

Which top black Middleweight fighters did Robinson avoid? And Ray won the Middleweight title five times from 1951-60, so let's focus in on those years.
We know that you agre going to say Charley Burley - but who else?

I knew that Burley had retired in 1950 - and that Robinson never won the World Middleweight title until 1951...

So this impression that you and Elmer are making of Sugar Ray being a World Champion who was ducking Burley and a few of the other Murderer's row guys just is not factual.

And lastly you one of your responses to me was:

They only fighter I think they avoided was Burley.

Yet later on the same page, you said:

However, who specifically were the great black middleweights during this era that Robinson didn't fight?

Charley Burley, Cocoa Kid (who dropped SRR in sparring) and Bert Lytell off the top of my head

Can't you see that there's a hint of you contradicting yourself here?

You are mixing threads and trying to join the dots. My thread about the best black welterweight and middleweight that SRR beat was nothing to do with Burley or SRR avoiding anyone, it was a simple question. Yes SRR didn't fight guys like Lytell or Cocoa Kid but I don't think he went of his way to avoid them. However I just think it was odd that as a black fighter SRR fought very few top black fighters, something that the Murderers Row fighters had to do with regularity and others like Moore and Charles also had to do. The reason for this is a mystery to me, maybe there is no mystery but it seems odd nonetheless.

If you want to start SRR's middleweight career from when he won the middleweight title in 1951 then of course Burley retired in 1950 so that debate is null and void. However Burley challenged SRR long before this, the cartoon shows there was a perception that SRR was avoiding Burley as early as January 1942. Remember Burley was a top 10 fighter for a very long time. Top 10 ranked by Ring Magazine for 100 continuous months (over 8 years !!!). You might have thought one of the top contenders or champs would've fought him after all that time. Weight wasn't an issue to Burley or SRR, they both fought bigger guys. Burley wasn't a huge guy, SRR was taller and so I personally don't go along with the argument that Burley was too big for him, SRR had no issues giving 16lbs away to LaMotta in 1943.

I stand by the theory that Burley was too good, hard to beat and hard to look good against. He had poor management too but ultimately few contenders would face him, far too risky and I still think SRRs team avoided him.

[Ambling Alp II]

The black/white thing is way overblown.
Robinson didn't fight every top white fighter with 2 weight classes and didn't avoid every black fighter.
He didn't fight Tony Zale, or Marcel Cerdan who were white. He did fight Henry Armstrong, Tommy Bell, Jimmy Doyle, Kid Gavilan who were black. Also fought Randy Turpin.

I think you can just as easily argue that Burley avoided Robinson. Makes more sense. Robinson was the better fighter; why avoid someone that you are better than ?
Interesting that Burley retired just about the same time that Robinson became a full time middleweight. Maybe he knew he couldn't beat Robinson.

[elmersalsa]

The black/white thing is way overblown.
Robinson didn't fight every top white fighter with 2 weight classes and didn't avoid every black fighter.
He didn't fight Tony Zale, or Marcel Cerdan who were white. He did fight Henry Armstrong, Tommy Bell, Jimmy Doyle, Kid Gavilan who were black. Also fought Randy Turpin.

I think you can just as easily argue that Burley avoided Robinson. Makes more sense. Robinson was the better fighter; why avoid someone that you are better than ?
Interesting that Burley retired just about the same time that Robinson became a full time middleweight. Maybe he knew he couldn't beat Robinson.

No alp, and again you are missing the point. Robinson fought a WASHED UP AND OVER THE HILL great Henry Armstrong. After the Fritzie Zivic fight, Armstrong was done. Finished.

The great Marcel Cerdan was not even relevant in the early 40s. The great Holman Williams fought him late.

There was Holman Williams, Charley Burley, Cocoa Kid, Eddie Booker, Shorty Hogue, Archie Moore and Ezzard Charles to name a few of great black fighters. And Sugar Ray did not fight not even a single fight agaisnt none of them? Not a single fight? But he face the great Jake LaMotta 6 times? At least Lamotta fought Holman Williams. Why not Robinson if he was "the best"?

And then, you said that Robinson fought the best competition by far? No, that was the great Cincinnati Cobra that did that. Not Robinson.

In his weight class, Robinson was king. I got even doubts that he beat the great Kid Gavilan. For some reason those fights do not exist? hmmmm

If Robinson would have fought at least 2 or 1 of those guys mentioned, then, he would not be so scrutinized by Ray Arcel and Emmanuel Steward. Why would they say those CLEAR OBSERVATIONS?

[Chuck1052]

Jimmy Doyle and Shorty Hogue were white, not black.

Jake LaMotta took pride in being willing to fight tough black fighters throughout his career.

- Chuck Johnston

[Ambling Alp II]

The black/white thing is way overblown.
Robinson didn't fight every top white fighter with 2 weight classes and didn't avoid every black fighter.
He didn't fight Tony Zale, or Marcel Cerdan who were white. He did fight Henry Armstrong, Tommy Bell, Jimmy Doyle, Kid Gavilan who were black. Also fought Randy Turpin.

I think you can just as easily argue that Burley avoided Robinson. Makes more sense. Robinson was the better fighter; why avoid someone that you are better than ?
Interesting that Burley retired just about the same time that Robinson became a full time middleweight. Maybe he knew he couldn't beat Robinson.

No alp, and again you are missing the point. Robinson fought a WASHED UP AND OVER THE HILL great Henry Armstrong. After the Fritzie Zivic fight, Armstrong was done. Finished.

The great Marcel Cerdan was not even relevant in the early 40s. The great Holman Williams fought him late.

There was Holman Williams, Charley Burley, Cocoa Kid, Eddie Booker, Shorty Hogue, Archie Moore and Ezzard Charles to name a few of great black fighters. And Sugar Ray did not fight not even a single fight agaisnt none of them? Not a single fight? But he face the great Jake LaMotta 6 times? At least Lamotta fought Holman Williams. Why not Robinson if he was "the best"?

And then, you said that Robinson fought the best competition by far? No, that was the great Cincinnati Cobra that did that. Not Robinson.

In his weight class, Robinson was king. I got even doubts that he beat the great Kid Gavilan. For some reason those fights do not exist? hmmmm

If Robinson would have fought at least 2 or 1 of those guys mentioned, then, he would not be so scrutinized by Ray Arcel and Emmanuel Steward. Why would they say those CLEAR OBSERVATIONS?

Nope, elmer you are way off again.
-Armstrong was not washed up/ finished at all when he fought robinson. He wasn't at his absolute best, but he was still very good. After the 2nd Zivic fight and before the Robinson fight, he beat the following: Tippy Larkin, Juan Zurita, Lew Jenkins, and Sammy Angott. And he beat Zivic the 3rd time that they fought. Going into the Robinson fight, Armstrong was the #2 welterweight contender.

-Cerdan was ranked in the top 10 in 1943. He was still a great fighter until he died in 1949. So yes, he was relevant for a long time and Robinson didn't fight him. And Robinson didn't fight Zale either.

-No the Kid Gavilan fights don't seem to be available to watch. How many of Robinson's fights from the 1940s are? Not many. Do you really think this was a conspiracy to help Robinson? Please.

Btw-Robinson also beat California Johnny Wilson, a top black fighter.

Ray Arcel Steward were entitled to their opinions. There are an awful lot of people that thought Robinson fought great competition.

This is not a black/white thing. He fought many top white fighters, didn't fight several others. He fought several top black fighters, didn't fight several others.

You can't fight every single good fighter in your own weight class and the weight class above you. Nobody else has done that.

Robinson beat a lot of good white fighters, and a lot of good black fighters. Overall, he fought the best competiton of his era.

[Chuck1052]

Sugar Ray Robinson and Jake LaMotta fought each other six times because many fans were willing to pay good money to see their bouts at major boxing venues. Take a look at the attendance and gates of their bouts which I found on BoxRec

1st Bout (Madison Square Garden, New York City): attendance - 12,784 gate- $29,434.
Robinson won an unanimous decision in a ten-round bout which took place on October 2, 1942.

2nd Bout (Olympia, Detroit): attendance- 18,930 gate- not listed
LaMotta won an unanimous decision in a ten-round bout which took place on February 5, 1943.

3rd bout (Olympia, Detroit): attendance- 15,149 gate- $60,710.
Robinson won an unanimous decision in a ten-round bout which took place on February 26, 1943.

4th bout (Madison Square Garden, New York City): attendance- 18,060 gate- $93,185.
Robinson won an unanimous decision in a ten-round bout which took place on February 23, 1945.

5th bout (Comiskey Park, Chicago): attendance- 14,755 gate- $74,434.
Robinson won a split decision in a twelve-round bout which took place on September 26, 1945

6th bout (Chicago Stadium, Chicago): attendance- 14,802 gross gate- $180,619.
Robinson won the world middleweight title by TKOing the reigning champion in the thirteenth round during a scheduled fifteen-round bout which took place on February 14, 1951.

- Chuck Johnston

[elmersalsa]

The black/white thing is way overblown.
Robinson didn't fight every top white fighter with 2 weight classes and didn't avoid every black fighter.
He didn't fight Tony Zale, or Marcel Cerdan who were white. He did fight Henry Armstrong, Tommy Bell, Jimmy Doyle, Kid Gavilan who were black. Also fought Randy Turpin.

I think you can just as easily argue that Burley avoided Robinson. Makes more sense. Robinson was the better fighter; why avoid someone that you are better than ?
Interesting that Burley retired just about the same time that Robinson became a full time middleweight. Maybe he knew he couldn't beat Robinson.

No alp, and again you are missing the point. Robinson fought a WASHED UP AND OVER THE HILL great Henry Armstrong. After the Fritzie Zivic fight, Armstrong was done. Finished.

The great Marcel Cerdan was not even relevant in the early 40s. The great Holman Williams fought him late.

There was Holman Williams, Charley Burley, Cocoa Kid, Eddie Booker, Shorty Hogue, Archie Moore and Ezzard Charles to name a few of great black fighters. And Sugar Ray did not fight not even a single fight agaisnt none of them? Not a single fight? But he face the great Jake LaMotta 6 times? At least Lamotta fought Holman Williams. Why not Robinson if he was "the best"?

And then, you said that Robinson fought the best competition by far? No, that was the great Cincinnati Cobra that did that. Not Robinson.

In his weight class, Robinson was king. I got even doubts that he beat the great Kid Gavilan. For some reason those fights do not exist? hmmmm

If Robinson would have fought at least 2 or 1 of those guys mentioned, then, he would not be so scrutinized by Ray Arcel and Emmanuel Steward. Why would they say those CLEAR OBSERVATIONS?

Nope, elmer you are way off again.
-Armstrong was not washed up/ finished at all when he fought robinson. He wasn't at his absolute best, but he was still very good. After the 2nd Zivic fight and before the Robinson fight, he beat the following: Tippy Larkin, Juan Zurita, Lew Jenkins, and Sammy Angott. And he beat Zivic the 3rd time that they fought. Going into the Robinson fight, Armstrong was the #2 welterweight contender.

-Cerdan was ranked in the top 10 in 1943. He was still a great fighter until he died in 1949. So yes, he was relevant for a long time and Robinson didn't fight him. And Robinson didn't fight Zale either.

-No the Kid Gavilan fights don't seem to be available to watch. How many of Robinson's fights from the 1940s are? Not many. Do you really think this was a conspiracy to help Robinson? Please.

Btw-Robinson also beat California Johnny Wilson, a top black fighter.

Ray Arcel Steward were entitled to their opinions. There are an awful lot of people that thought Robinson fought great competition.

This is not a black/white thing. He fought many top white fighters, didn't fight several others. He fought several top black fighters, didn't fight several others.

You can't fight every single good fighter in your own weight class and the weight class above you. Nobody else has done that.

Robinson beat a lot of good white fighters, and a lot of good black fighters. Overall, he fought the best competiton of his era.

Let's start with the great Henry Armstrong. Armstrong by 1941, was already over the hill. To say that he was in his prime when Robinson fought him one is either delusional, blind or they do not know what are they are talking about. Yeah, he beat Larkin, Zurita, Angott and Jenkins when he was not at his very best. In his prime. That is more points for Henry in his favor. Can we see the greatness of Henry Armstrong now?

Now, with Sugar Ray. Great fighter? No doubt. Did he beat the best of his era. Yes, but not the very best. He missed at least 2 guys from the Black Murderers Row. Why he did not fight at least one time with any of them?

I believe that it was in the case of BIGGER RISK but LESS MONEY. That is the only conclusion that anybody that defends Robinson has to say. The great Charley Burley was a well known fighter after he beat Fritzie Zivic twice.

Don't you think if he would have fought at least one of the guys from the Black Murderers Row, his legacy would have been enhanced? I think so.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Robinson pretty much just fought Armstrong to get him a nice check. Hank wasn't shot, but he wasn't near his best.

[elmersalsa]

Plus, the great Marcel Cerdan became to our attention after he beat the great Holman Williams on Feb 7, 1946. A date when it was CLEARLY seen as Williams was not in his prime by that time. Williams started fighting in 1932. That is 14 years in the ring, with more than 171 fights as a pro. That is a lot of fights!

Then the great Jake LaMotta fought him next. Williams lost to LaMotta on Aug 7, 1946. The great Charley Burley fought Williams 3 times in less than a year? Are we serious? By 1942-43, that is what they did. They fought each other very often. In their primes.

Robinson was no where to be found.

Forget Burley and Williams.
What about Cocoa Kid?
What about Eddie Booker?
Or Bert Lytell? or Ezzard Charles?

If we are going to defend Sugar Ray about not fighting those guys, then it should be "More Risk, Less Money" than fighting the great Jake LaMotta 6 times. What do you got to prove fighting LaMotta 5 times in the 1940s? What does that prove? Nothing. You have already beaten him 4 times. It does not make sense, legacy wise. But moneywise? it was all good for Sugar Ray.

[Controversial]

The black/white thing is way overblown.
Robinson didn't fight every top white fighter with 2 weight classes and didn't avoid every black fighter.
He didn't fight Tony Zale, or Marcel Cerdan who were white. He did fight Henry Armstrong, Tommy Bell, Jimmy Doyle, Kid Gavilan who were black. Also fought Randy Turpin.

-Armstrong was not washed up / finished at all when he fought robinson. He wasn't at his absolute best, but he was still very good. After the 2nd Zivic fight and before the Robinson fight, he beat the following: Tippy Larkin, Juan Zurita, Lew Jenkins, and Sammy Angott. And he beat Zivic the 3rd time that they fought. Going into the Robinson fight, Armstrong was the #2 welterweight contender.

-Cerdan was ranked in the top 10 in 1943. He was still a great fighter until he died in 1949. So yes, he was relevant for a long time and Robinson didn't fight him. And Robinson didn't fight Zale either.

-No the Kid Gavilan fights don't seem to be available to watch. How many of Robinson's fights from the 1940s are? Not many. Do you really think this was a conspiracy to help Robinson? Please.

Btw-Robinson also beat California Johnny Wilson, a top black fighter.

Ray Arcel Steward were entitled to their opinions. There are an awful lot of people that thought Robinson fought great competition.

This is not a black/white thing. He fought many top white fighters, didn't fight several others. He fought several top black fighters, didn't fight several others.

You can't fight every single good fighter in your own weight class and the weight class above you. Nobody else has done that.

Robinson beat a lot of good white fighters, and a lot of good black fighters. Overall, he fought the best competiton of his era.

It is widely known that SRR carried Armstrong in their fight. SRR and Armstrong were long time close friends and it was said Armstrong asked for the fight because he was riddled with debts and needed the money. Reports of the fight say it was very boring, uneventful and SRR toyed with Armstrong, winning all 10 rounds without any real punch thrown in anger. Armstrong, who had originally retired in 1941 after being stopped by Zivic, retired again after the SRR fight. He of course made another comeback 6 months later.

Armstrong was far from the fighter he once was, to say he was still a very good fighter just isn't true.

The Afro American {Sept 4th 1943}
"It was a pathetic pantomime, with Armstrong, burdened by taxes, shuffling futilely and Robinson showing sympathy refusing to let go against his opponent. Described as a staged lovefest. The fans constantly booed and showed their disappointment. Armstrong with the boos ringing in his ears and looking visibly worn and dejected muttered 'Thats it I'm through, no use to go on. I'm on fighting for Uncle Sam as taxes are heavy'. There is little to report in this tag contest, with Robinson doing all the tagging, winning every round with ridiculous ease and many times showed much unwillingness to hurt his idol. Armstrong was easy to hit but Robinson only elected to do this in intervals. Armstrong only landed about 17 punches the entire fight with only 3 being anything close to potent. It was the easiest fight on record to judge, landslide scores and no one in doubt. Armstrong announced his retirement after the fight" (précis of article but you get the drift)
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2 ... 420,584289

You mentioned Jimmy Doyle, he was white, but the point wasn't to make it a black and white issue, it was more to highlight the lack of fights SRR had against the top black fighters which is interesting for someone who had over 200 fights and for someone who was himself black. For someone with that many bouts its odd to me that only a few black fighters can be named, especially at middleweight. Turpin was a huge shock and he wasn't really expected to beat SRR. SRR was on his Europe tour and by all accounts was "enjoying himself" and not looking that great in these fights.

Black fighters tended to be avoided by the good white fighters, not so common for fellow black fighters to not fight each other.

Cerdan fought mainly in Europe and Morocco, his first fight in America was in December 1946 so he really wasn't someone Americans would fight especially in the middle of WW2 where Europe was in tatters. Even Holman Williams had to travel to Paris to fight him so he really wasn't an option during the WW2 years.

[Ambling Alp II]

Even so he could have fought him 1946 or 1947 or 1948 or 1949. The point is that you can't fight everybody in your own weight class, not to mention a weight class above you. Nobody else has done this.

As for Armstrong, no he wasn't as good as he once was. Robinson really couldn't have fought him in his prime. Robinson had only been a pro for 3 years when they fought. Armstrong was the #2 welterweight in the world when they fought. He was the highest rated black welterweight in the world besides Robinson himself.

Yes Robinson did fight arguably the best middleweight in the world 6 times. How gutless of him. As Chuck mentioned, there was a huge demand for their fights. In the real world of boxing, you don't turn down big paydays like that. Yet somehow this is spun around that he ducked people. Makes no sense.

Elmer keeps bring up opponents a weight class above him. How about Archie Moore? Did Archie fight Jersey Joe Walcott, Hurricane Jackson, Sonny Liston, Zora Folley, Cleveland Williams, Eddie Machen, Doug Jones? Nope. They were all black contenders.
Yet he fought white fighters Maxim 3 times, and Durelle 2 times.
Are we going to start ripping Moore as well?

Now he is bringing up that Robinson didn't fight Ezzard Charles and Archie Moore. Really? Most of their careers, they outweighed Robinson by more than 20 pounds. Much of the time they were 2 weight classes (if there were weight classes for 154 and 168 it would have been 4 weight classes.) higher than Robinson.
At one time, Robinson was the welterweight champion when Charles was the heavyweight champion.
How silly is this going to get?

[raylawpc]

But moneywise? it was all good for Sugar Ray.

You are aware, I hope, that they are called "prizefighters" for a reason . . .

[Chuck1052]

Eddie Booker had his last bout during 1944, retiring due to eye trouble. Except for a bout in Montana during 1941 and a stint in New York and Connecticut during late 1938 and early 1939, Booker fought exclusively in California during a career which started in 1935.

- Chuck Johnston

[Controversial]

Thread bump. Any more thoughts on SRR being protected?

[Cojimar 1946]

Dick Tiger was a top middleweight in the late 50s and a match for the white guys mentioned if not better

[Ambling Alp II]

Robinson was 38 before Tiger won a major fight. Ridiculous to say Robinson ducked him.