leejonesjnr wrote: IBA, EBF etc are not alternatives as they are not professional boxing outfits, they are white collar set ups.
I think the BBBoC do an excellent job all in all.
I believe Bruce Baker and the PBPA are attempting to bring GBA to the UK as a full time organisation.
They are not white collar set ups. A lot of people wrongly make that assumption. They do stage some white collar events, but on the whole EBF and IBA boxers get paid. They charge for tickets. The fighters on their bills are not stockbrokers (who white collar boxing was set up for) and they aren't boxing for charity. They call themselves "semi-pro" now, but anyone who gets paid for doing anything can call themselves "professional". Likewise, most BBBofC pros have other jobs, so you could call them "semi-pro" as well if you wanted.
They are boxing associations, whether we like it or not and there is not one thing anyone can do to stop them calling themselves professional boxing organisations if they wanted.
I work in BBBofC regulated boxing and, at one time I even worked for Bruce Baker. I am a supporter of the board, but I can clearly see how boxing across all levels in the UK operates. A couple of years ago, I spoke to Robert Smith and Spencer Brown of the EBF at length on the legalities of both bodies' existence. Bruce told me at the board's EGM in 2011 that he wanted to set up his break away organisation that would include so-called professionals, alongside novice classes and some white collar fights (unpaid, for charity). I don't like it, but what can you do?
White Collar is a term that has come to mean all types of what many would call unlicensed boxing. It is not professional boxing simply because it is not recognised by the world of professional boxing. I imagine that legally speaking these organisations could call themselves professional boxing if they wanted to, but as the fighters are unable to box for credible professional titles, unrecognised by organisations such as BoxRec and generally earn a few hundred pounds ticket commission, it still wouldn't BE pro boxing now would it? I could call myself a horsey but I wouldn't win the grand national.
Interesting times are ahead certainly. Malta and GBA sanctioned shows with both versions of the WBU titles are already being contested on British soil and presumably eventually BBBoC licensed boxers may wish to fight on those shows. I believe that the BBBoC stance is that they would withdraw the license of a boxer taking part but if someone enforces legal action with regards EU restraint of trade etc then who knows what may happen?
I see the point you're trying to make, but it's not strictly correct. There is nothing, for example, to prevent an EBF or IBA boxer fighting as a "pro" overseas. No doubt they could also get a GBA or Maltese "license" and box on their shows here, while retaining the option of boxing on further EBF/IBA shows. Would these be recognised by the so-called "world of professional boxing"?
Danny Williams has done it. So by your definition, Danny is a white collar boxer and not a professional.
I see the point you're trying to make, but it's not strictly correct. There is nothing, for example, to prevent an EBF or IBA boxer fighting as a "pro" overseas. No doubt they could also get a GBA or Maltese "license" and box on their shows here, while retaining the option of boxing on further EBF/IBA shows. Would be recognised by so-called "world of professional boxing"?
Danny Williams has done it. So by your definition, Danny is a white collar boxer and not a professional.[/quote]
It is 100% correct.
Danny Williams has boxed on EBF and IBA shows? Really? I don't think that is true.
GBA and Maltese licenses are certainly easier to get than BBBoC licenses. I have no idea if they would allow a license holder to box professionally as well as boxing on EBF and IBA type shows, has it happened? Were an IBA or EBF boxer to gain any kind of professional license and box professionally he would then be making his debut, same as anyone else.
Danny Williams has boxed on EBF and IBA shows? Really? I don't think that is true.
GBA and Maltese licenses are certainly easier to get than BBBoC licenses. I have no idea if they would allow a license holder to box professionally as well as boxing on EBF and IBA type shows, has it happened? Were an IBA or EBF boxer to gain any kind of professional license and box professionally he would then be making his debut, same as anyone else.
The simple fact is, there are two types of boxing in this debate. BBBofC boxing and none BBBofC. Calling GBA and Maltese professional is a stretch. They are self-appointed bodies in the same way that the so-called unlicensed ones are. The term unlicensed merely means non-BBBofC.
The list of BBBofC boxers that have appeared and continue to appear on EBF shows is as long as both your arms. Trust me.
Enlighten me, which EBF or IBA shows did Danny Williams box on?
Which current pros have boxed on then since getting their license?
I don't trust anyone who doesn't take accountability for their word stranger.
Unlicensed means not professional boxing, not none BBBoC. Like it or not a GBA show is recognised by the world of professional boxing.
The BBBoC is also self appointed, that is a none point.
A recent EBF boxer made his "debut" on a GBA show at York Hall. Recorded on Boxrec as well.
Lets, for example, say he's offered a fight next week on an EBF show and accepts. The board can't do anything because he's not licensed with them and isn't their problem. Can the GBA do anything? They could take his "licence", but wouldn't that make them hypocrites? They'd be guilty of doing the exact same thing they have such a problem with the board doing.
The waters are very murky and by condoning these dodgy foreign bodies with their bogus "licenses", you contribute to helping them make things even more muddy. Boxing needs one strong, forward thinking board. Not a bunch of charlatans out for a quick buck.
Last edited by Wake up call on 26 Mar 2014, 13:01, edited 1 time in total.
leejonesjnr wrote:Enlighten me, which EBF or IBA shows did Danny Williams box on?
Which current pros have boxed on then since getting their license?
I don't trust anyone who doesn't take accountability for their word stranger.
Unlicensed means not professional boxing, not none BBBoC. Like it or not a GBA show is recognised by the world of professional boxing.
The BBBoC is also self appointed, that is a none point.
I am not at liberty to mention names. It could lead to people getting into trouble with their board. I will happily debate this subject, but I will not give information which has the potential to put a boxer's license at risk. Go to an "unlicensed" show, particularly in the North West and you'll see who is around.
I don't see what point you are trying to make. You say a former EBF boxer has turned pro on a German license? Okay. Fine with me. I personally would always choose to license with the BBBoC but I do not claim that there are not alternatives, simply that EBF, IBA and the like are not professional boxing. Yes they use boxing gloves and a boxing ring but if I were to hit someone with a cricket bat that isn't the same as playing in the ashes.
leejonesjnr wrote:I don't see what point you are trying to make. You say a former EBF boxer has turned pro on a German license? Okay. Fine with me. I personally would always choose to license with the BBBoC but I do not claim that there are not alternatives, simply that EBF, IBA and the like are not professional boxing. Yes they use boxing gloves and a boxing ring but if I were to hit someone with a cricket bat that isn't the same as playing in the ashes.
Difference, they get paid. That's all professional means. The GBA shows in the UK are no more professional than any other. That is the point. Calling them pro when they are doing the exact same things "unlicensed" bodies do is stupid. They are professional only because people get paid, not because they make up their own "licenses", which legally are nothing more than membership cards and have about the same value as one that allows you to rent DVDs from Blockbuster.
The term unlicensed was coined by the board to mean not licensed by them. The GBA isn't licensed by them so, using the way you see things, the GBA is unlicensed.
Last edited by Wake up call on 26 Mar 2014, 13:18, edited 1 time in total.
Wake up call wrote:
The simple fact is, there are two types of boxing in this debate. BBBofC boxing and none BBBofC.
This is the whole point.
The BBBofC are not the "law", they are a self appointed body just like all of the others.
It is just that they have enjoyed a monopoly in this country, up until now - however they have no divine right to continue as the only representative body and excluding all others.
Wake up call wrote:
The simple fact is, there are two types of boxing in this debate. BBBofC boxing and none BBBofC.
This is the whole point.
The BBBofC are not the "law", they are a self appointed body just like all of the others.
It is just that they have enjoyed a monopoly in this country, up until now - however they have no divine right to continue as the only representative body and excluding all others.
Not at all. The market is open and has always been open. The problem is, people now seem to be supporting these new bodies and that will ultimately be to the detriment of the sport.
These planning legal action want it both ways. They want to be able to stage none board shows, but still retain their right to be board license holders. The board doesn't allow it with other "unlicensed" bodies and shouldn't with these. Don't want to play by the board's rules? Fine f**k off.
I'm not pro GBA, never been to a show, couldn't care less about them. The world of professional boxing recognises them.
IBA and EBF themselves don't think they are professional boxing outfits, so why you do is a mystery.
Just remind me, who was the last IBA or EBF boxer to win a WBC or WBA title?
I'm not pro GBA, never been to a show, couldn't care less about them. The world of professional boxing recognises them.
IBA and EBF themselves don't think they are professional boxing outfits, so why you do is a mystery.
Just remind me, who was the last IBA or EBF boxer to win a WBC or WBA title?
I don't Lee. That's what you're not getting.
My argument is. If you think GBA are pro, then so are every other body that meets the universal definition of pro - ie getting paid.
Because unlicensed merely means unlicensed by the board. The GBA are unlicensed. And if other unlicensed bodies are not pro, then neither are the GBA. They are a made up body, like all the others. What is this "world of professional boxing" you are so obsessive about? The GBA aren't even recognised in Germany and are not members of the EBU. Their standing is no greater than bodies you are so keen to dismiss as "not professional". That is the point.
I'm not pro GBA, never been to a show, couldn't care less about them. The world of professional boxing recognises them.
IBA and EBF themselves don't think they are professional boxing outfits, so why you do is a mystery.
Just remind me, who was the last IBA or EBF boxer to win a WBC or WBA title?
I don't Lee. That's what you're not getting.
My argument is. If you think GBA are pro, then so are every other body that meets the universal definition of pro - ie getting paid.
Because unlicensed merely means unlicensed by the board. The GBA are unlicensed. And if other unlicensed bodies are not pro, then neither are the GBA. They are a made up body, like all the others. What is this "world of professional boxing" you are so obsessive about? The GBA aren't even recognised in Germany and are not members of the EBU. Their standing is no greater than bodies you are so keen to dismiss as "not professional". That is the point.
Best thing for you to do is box on whatever shows you like and call yourself a pro if you wish.
I'm happy to stick with the BBBoC and legit pro boxing.
I'm not pro GBA, never been to a show, couldn't care less about them. The world of professional boxing recognises them.
IBA and EBF themselves don't think they are professional boxing outfits, so why you do is a mystery.
Just remind me, who was the last IBA or EBF boxer to win a WBC or WBA title?
I don't Lee. That's what you're not getting.
My argument is. If you think GBA are pro, then so are every other body that meets the universal definition of pro - ie getting paid.
Because unlicensed merely means unlicensed by the board. The GBA are unlicensed. And if other unlicensed bodies are not pro, then neither are the GBA. They are a made up body, like all the others. What is this "world of professional boxing" you are so obsessive about? The GBA aren't even recognised in Germany and are not members of the EBU. Their standing is no greater than bodies you are so keen to dismiss as "not professional". That is the point.
Best thing for you to do is box on whatever shows you like and call yourself a pro if you wish.
I'm happy to stick with the BBBoC and legit pro boxing.
Please don't pretend GBA is legitimate then. If you think what you've just said, you'd be against the GBA unlicensed brigade as well.
I would assume , if your not licensed by
The bbboc then your unlicensed .
Gba/Malta ? Suppose They do fall I to that unlicensed category ,but only cause the rule of "one sanctioning body one country" has evolved ,but I haven't been to one but I would imagine the standard is maybe not the same? As for white collerd/Eba etc that is def unlicensed by any definition ...
Alba wrote:I would assume , if your not licensed by
The bbboc then your unlicensed .
Gba/Malta ? Suppose They do fall I to that unlicensed category ,but only cause the rule of "one sanctioning body one country" has evolved ,but I haven't been to one but I would imagine the standard is maybe not the same? As for white collerd/Eba etc that is def unlicensed by any definition ...
You're first sentence is right Gary.
As for one sanctioning body in each country, that's never really been the case because of a lack statutory status. The world "licensed" is thrown about too much. Even the so-called "unlicensed" bodies have their own licenses. I could set up my own body, stick someone's photo on a piece of plastic or the back of a cereal box and call that a licence. They hold no legal status like a drivers licence etc does.
The picture is clearer when you call things non BBBofC and BBBofC in this country.
I'm not pro GBA, never been to a show, couldn't care less about them. The world of professional boxing recognises them.
IBA and EBF themselves don't think they are professional boxing outfits, so why you do is a mystery.
Just remind me, who was the last IBA or EBF boxer to win a WBC or WBA title?
I don't Lee. That's what you're not getting.
My argument is. If you think GBA are pro, then so are every other body that meets the universal definition of pro - ie getting paid.
Because unlicensed merely means unlicensed by the board. The GBA are unlicensed. And if other unlicensed bodies are not pro, then neither are the GBA. They are a made up body, like all the others. What is this "world of professional boxing" you are so obsessive about? The GBA aren't even recognised in Germany and are not members of the EBU. Their standing is no greater than bodies you are so keen to dismiss as "not professional". That is the point.
Best thing for you to do is box on whatever shows you like and call yourself a pro if you wish.
I'm happy to stick with the BBBoC and legit pro boxing.
Not too hard for any Tom, Dick or Harry to be a 'legit; pro with BBBoC:
Wake up call wrote:
The simple fact is, there are two types of boxing in this debate. BBBofC boxing and none BBBofC.
This is the whole point.
The BBBofC are not the "law", they are a self appointed body just like all of the others.
It is just that they have enjoyed a monopoly in this country, up until now - however they have no divine right to continue as the only representative body and excluding all others.
Not at all. The market is open and has always been open. The problem is, people now seem to be supporting these new bodies and that will ultimately be to the detriment of the sport.
These planning legal action want it both ways. They want to be able to stage none board shows, but still retain their right to be board license holders. The board doesn't allow it with other "unlicensed" bodies and shouldn't with these. Don't want to play by the board's rules? Fine f**k off.
Again, that is the point - the market is not (and has never been) open.
The BBBofC are saying to (some, not all) boxers/managers/promoters/seconds/trainers etc. that if they appear on a show that is not licensed by them, then they will not be allowed to appear on one of their licensed shows.
That doesn't strike me as being very democratic.
Also, it wouldn't be as bad if the BBofC had clear and transparent rules and applied them equally across the board, but they do not. They apply sanctions to some people but not others- although on what criteria nobody knows.
I don't see the problem with the BBBoC not being democratic.
They are clear what their terms and conditions when you apply for a license. You then choose to become a license holder or you don't. Vote with your feet. If you want a Big Mac go to a place that sells them, don't turn up at KFC and kick up a fuss.
leejonesjnr wrote:I don't see the problem with the BBBoC not being democratic.
They are clear what their terms and conditions when you apply for a license. You then choose to become a license holder or you don't. Vote with your feet. If you want a Big Mac go to a place that sells them, don't turn up at KFC and kick up a fuss.
Does anyone on here think that having the WBC,WBA,WBO and the IBF have been good for boxing? They have certainly helped the collapse of boxing as a mainstream sport in the USA.
What some people are trying to do is create the same mess here.
If people want to promote out with the Board good luck. But keep your fingers crossed that nothing goes wrong.
I'm about finished with boxing anyway, it's on it's last legs, so I say let them carry on and do what they want - who really cares anymore. Look at all the national newspapers today and pick out the boxing news. Watch the sports sections on the main news on TV, any mention there? The BBC and ITV are falling over themselves to show boxing aren't they. Dying sport destroyed by greed and selfishness.
