'A' class victories at HW

[Ezzard]

Okay...

if we graded all wins at HW which ones would you give grade 'A' to. The quality of the opposition should be the biggest factor. And if it's officially a defeat but most thought it should have been the other way I am willing to accept it.

For example... Walcott's defeat on points to Louis is often seen as a very bad decision and can count for Joe. As could Ezzard Charles's 4th fight with Walcott...in which Charles clearly should have won.

A little common sense will be needed...

Another example...

Foreman's win over Frazier is an 'A'... His second win over Joe clearly isn't...

Marciano's win over Walcott is an 'A'... Yes, Walcott was past his best BUT he was the champ and still formidable as the fight showed. Leon Spinks's win over Ali is clearly not an 'A' who was also past his bets and still the champ.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I wouldn't give Marciano an A for Walcott, as you mentioned he was past his best and he whipped Marciano's ass for most of the fight. Great comeback, but I couldn't put that with Frazier beating Ali, Ali beating Foreman, Bowe and Holyfield beating each other, Louis and Schmeling beating each other, etc..

[Ezzard]

I don't think that the fact Walcott was whipping his ass is relevant. Really, I don't think that matters to me in the slightest. Just my opinion...

[Ezzard]

Ali 'A' wins:

Liston I
Frazier II
Frazier III
Foreman
Norton II


Louis

Baer
Schmeling II
Walcott II


Holmes

Norton
Witherspoon

[dempseyfire]

I'd rank any win over another great heavyweight when they were still great an A class victory, so Marciano's win over Jersey Joe would qualify in my book.

I'd rank Larry's first win over the Acorn over beating Witherspoon. Witherspoon was one of the best of the 80s but overall not a great fighter IMO.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I don't think a great win has to come over a great opponent. I'd definitely consider Mercer an A win for Holmes. I'd consider the Witherspoon fight more of an A for Tim than I would for Larry.

[Ezzard]

I do agree that Holmes's win over Mercer is great for his standing... But it's not quite the same thing... If you like it gets an 'A' because of Larry's age at the time he beat Mercer.

[Ezzard]

Holmes and Witherspoon was pretty even. I'd be giving them both 'A's

I don't think Shavers was at the level required.

[Ezzard]

James Jeffries

Sharkey I
Sharkey II
Corbett I

[Ambling Alp II]

Ali-Liston I, Patterson I, Norton II, Frazier II, Foreman, Frazier III.

Louis - Baer, Schmeling, Walcott II

Foreman - Frazier I, Norton

Frazier - Ali I

Holmes - Norton

Marciano - Walcott I

Dempsey - Sharkey

Holyfield - Bowe II, Tyson I

Liston - Patterson I and Patterson II

Jeffries - Corbett I (Fitz and Sharkey are close)

Some guys don't really have A's but a lot "B"s (Johnson, Lewis, Tyson.)

[elmersalsa]

James J. Corbett win over John L. Sullivan
Bob Fitzsimmons "solar plexus punch" win over James J. Corbett
Jack Johnson wins over Sam Langford, Sam McVeay and Joe Jeannette

[dempseyfire]

I don't think a great win has to come over a great opponent. I'd definitely consider Mercer an A win for Holmes. I'd consider the Witherspoon fight more of an A for Tim than I would for Larry.

Well I was thinking more of for ranking. Clearly guys can put in great performances vs less than stellar competition. Archie Moore's greatest performance was probably vs Durrell in his early 40s but the tough Canadian wasn't a great fighter.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I don't think a great win has to come over a great opponent. I'd definitely consider Mercer an A win for Holmes. I'd consider the Witherspoon fight more of an A for Tim than I would for Larry.

Well I was thinking more of for ranking. Clearly guys can put in great performances vs less than stellar competition. Archie Moore's greatest performance was probably vs Durrell in his early 40s but the tough Canadian wasn't a great fighter.

As I said, an A victory for me wouldn't require a great opponent. Too many variables. Duran/Barkley is a good example.

[BoxBuzz]

Would Hearns Barkley also? I assume so.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Would Hearns Barkley also? I assume so.

Absolutely. Much bigger win than Ali/Patterson 1, though I don't think any of us expect anything less from Alp. If it was all divisions I'd be reading Leonard/Ranzany.

[BoxBuzz]

I don't think a great win has to come over a great opponent. I'd definitely consider Mercer an A win for Holmes. I'd consider the Witherspoon fight more of an A for Tim than I would for Larry.

Well I was thinking more of for ranking. Clearly guys can put in great performances vs less than stellar competition. Archie Moore's greatest performance was probably vs Durrell in his early 40s but the tough Canadian wasn't a great fighter.

Good call, Archie was not coming back to overcome a great fighter, but a very tough, nearly impossible situation. Durelle scored that miracle moment that happens once in a lifetime....and.....sadly for him it didn't quite pan out.