Classic American West Coast Boxing

[dagosd2000]

Carlos Palomino

[dagosd2000]

Gotta' Dance

When Sugar Ray Robinson decided to clean out his locker after the Maxim fight,he began his experiment in the field of entertainment.Robinson was a delight on the eyes to watch in the ring. How many times have they slowed the movie footage of his ring forays to capsulize the beauty and grace of the often perceived "Best Pound For Pound."Sometimes these clips are accompanied with back round music emanating from the horn of Miles Davis or a symphony orchestra. Artsy guy this Sugar Ray Robinson.

We've seen him skipping rope,out matadoring Manolete when goring the Raging Bull LaMotta in Chicago.So why not put those feet to work on the Broadway?

Ray had an enormous ego and an entourage to validate it.Who wouldn't follow him onto the stage and screen? Ray thought he could sing too.Woody Allen remarked that Ray was even thinking of singing at the Met.But no one had ever heard him sing in the squared circle.But we knew what his foot work was like.He bet he could hoof it with Astaire.

Robby got an act together with a dancing entourage behind him. Well these people could dance better than Ray.We've seen the film footage of Robinson's dance act.He looked more like the Raging Bull than the matador. Maybe Ray should have worked up a dance routine with his jump rope.Like his son Ron said laughing"He was no Fred Astaire."I bet Fred was relieved.After the curiosity wore off(and his finances)Ray had to take his pants off again.

When Robinson came back he fought bigger bulls that gave him more trouble.That and his dance legs where beginning to creak.But if it's any consolation,I don't think Fred Astaire would have Put up much of a fight against Jake LaMotta. Fred knew his limitations.



Fred Astaire

[Expug]

Hi Rog,
Whenever I think of "Ray the entertainer", I remember the story of when Carmen Basilio first met him.
I think it was Carmen. Anyway,he told the story,of seeing him somewhere in New York when Basilio was coming up.
It was probably in Times Square and Ray was outside on the street with his entourage,his pink cadillac,fancy suit,broad,the whole shebang.
Carmen told whoever he was with that he was gonna walk over and introduce himself,say hello,whatever. He did and Ray gave him the brush off. Acted like he was a nobody.Didnt give him the time of day.
From that point on,Carmen had a thing for him. Didnt like him even a little bit.
Later on, Ray found that out all right.

[Expug]

Carlos Palomino

Carlos was one of my favorite fighters. Him and Lil Red.
Class in the ring and out.
Anyone remember seeing Carlos on an episode of the great old show "Taxi"? Im certain you guys have.
Of course Tony Danza was a star on that program.

[dagosd2000]

Brian,don't remember that episode on Taxi,but I've got this channel called "MeTV" that shows old episodes of Taxi. I'll keep my eyes peeled.

My father knew Ray Robinson a little.My father worked for a Capone dairy in Chicago called Meadowmoor. One day the Outfit guys whacked a mob lawyer standing on the corner next to the dairy. Robinson was standing near by the guy.(The dairy was trying to get Ray to promote some sort of product) Well Robinson thought the hit men were shooting at him. I remember once in San Diego when Robinson was at the fights my father walked up to him and put his arm around him and joked about that incident in Chicago.
"Joe",Ray beamed at my father,"I thought those guys were after me. You know I always went along with what you guys wanted from me."(Robinson would "carry" fighters when he fought in Chicago so the Outfit would clean up with the bookies).

The point I really want to make is that if you approached Robinson you had to overpower him with an egotistical confidence that was bigger than his. Ol' Carmen was too meek and polite around the Sugar Man. A sour experience indeed.



Carmen Basilio settling the score with Sugar Ray Robinson

[dagosd2000]

The Crusade

Historians can go back and forth about the merits of the past's greatest figures. They can find good and bad with every icon in the history books. I've seen the scholars find fault with Abraham Lincoln,George Washington,and Mahatma Gandhi.I've heard that there were some positives about Stalin,Mao Zedong ,and Attila the Hun. If you're on the winning side,the pluses add up.Imagine if Togo and Hitler had of prevailed ?FDR and Churchill would have been cast as monsters.OK,these were giant people in a world of giant decisions.Their influences shaped the world they lived in and the times we live in today.But to see how people argue about the worth of an athlete on a blogspot makes me wonder if this is a foreshadowing of what the dumbing down of society is coming to.

I used to put in my two cents on other threads on the forum,but would scurry away when I would get countered by someone who exhorted a zeal and a passion for the opposite of what I was thinking.Often the retort would be laced with a questioning of my intellectand masculinity.When Classic West Coast Boxing opened up(originally it was a post by Brian Higgins about Indian Red Lopez),I felt more at ease. It wasn't a life and death argument about what fighter had the best chin or who was the most overrated.

There was one guy awhile back that had his head up one of the poster's asses and would want to play him off against someone else(the someone else was more and more me). This guy was a little bitch and couldn't stand it if he felt his friend liked me more than him. One time I commented that maybe Pac didn't want to take a blood test because they might find roids in his system. Well I got a reply from the "friend" that he didn't agree .No problem. I let it go at that. Well the jerk off sees the opening to play his "friend" off against me and let's me have it over the Pacman comment.His
"friend " feels vindicated and posts back with a few of those "thumbs up" icons. So much for that crap. I'm not going to get in a pissing contest on a computer. I went off the thread for a couple of years.

But sometimes I browse the other threads and smell a lot of urine. What is so important whether Muhammad Ali was a great fighter or a myth?I've never heard of any fighter he fought call him a lousy fighter. Only Joe Frazier had bad things to say,but it was about his personality. Moody Floyd Patterson insisted on calling him Clay(as did Nat Fleischer).Even a guy like Ken Norton(who should have come up with at least another decision win)wasn't as vehement as some of the nonentities that wear out a thread with their quests to see Ali go down in history as a bum



Muhammad Ali

[BoxBuzz]

Specific personalities bring out the quirky in some folks.

And a little bashing on very big Icon's such as Ali or Robinson brings lots of attention...which is
what I think it's really all about.

Most of the folks who faced him said good things about him at some point. I think Kenny opined that to hit Ali was like hitting concrete. Or some such solid substance. And he should know, Kenny got his fair amount of licks in on him.

Ali was very very good. Maybe not as good as he thought he was....but if he had thought less of

himself, he wouldn't have elevated himself up to or past his potential. lol.

And Joe Frazier? The only thing that tells us just how good Frazier was....was that he beat this kid.

So for me, it's all good. I even forgive him for whuppin' my all time #1 favorite fighter, Archie Moore.

Hell, I even think Archie liked him more than he disliked him. And I know he held BOTH opinions.

[dagosd2000]

The Little School

Early during my teaching career I was a long term substitute teacher at a school for severely handicapped children in National City.It was a little school across the street from the hospital. The kids at the school had been stricken with Cerebral Palsy.Some had suffered brain traumas due to swimming pool accidents.It was a lack of oxygen to the brain that caused the damage. The kids were between the ages of four and eighteen.They were unable to fend for themselves. They couldn't talk nor walk nor feed themselves. They wore diapers. Their limbs would atrophy from a lack of movement. They had to be constantly stretched out and massaged to get their circulation going. Some had to be placed in custom beds and chairs to contour their deformed bodies.It wasn't really clear what they should be taught,but the law said they had to go to school. The principal was a guy by the name of Gene Gallegos.He wasn't only an administrator. He did all the work the teachers and the nursing staff had to do to take care of the kids. He changed poopy diapers with the rest of the staff. He was OK. In fact everyone was OK. Because I didn't have a degree in Special Education the law made it clear I couldn't get hired onat that school.Gene said he would have hired me in a heartbeat ,but because I was an English major I couldn't get in. After my stint was up after three months,I finally landed a position at a near by school in the Sweetwater Union District.

But I would revisit the school from time to time. Most of the staff I had worked with never left. I liked working there. I didn't have to deal with any outside distractions. There were no beefs from any of the parents of those kids. In fact many of those kids never had a visitation from a parent.Maybe their folks didn't want to see their child that way.In a wheel chair. Living in a dorm. That young and being cheated out of a normal life. Most of those kids were lucky to live into their twenties.

But I think back and I would never say that maybe they were better off by not having to suffer and go on like that.You see, I didn't think they did suffer. When I walked into the so called classroom,I'd make funny faces and act all goofy. The kids would laugh and shake with life.They knew who I was. They were happy to see me.It tore me apart sometimes,but I was happy to see them too.

I never went back to school to get a degree in Special Ed. I was caught up with bills and a family.But I would go back to the school in National City to see how things were going. By the way, the name of the school was called "Friendship Home."

As I grow older I prioritize things more. With all the greed , lies,and power trips that fill the news of the world I'm retreating into myself more. My grandchildren are growing up fast. They're about to fly away from the nest. I'm enjoying being with my wife who I always think was way ahead of me when it came to loving people and being kind. Maybe that is what faith is...being kind and being with people who are lonely.

[dagosd2000]

Fats Domino

[dagosd2000]

False Indicator

"So is Klitschko the president of Russia yet?"asked Ed the bartender as he was drawing a beer from the tap.
"You mean the Ukraine?"I replied.
Ed put the beer in front of me on the coaster.
"The Ukraine.Russia. It's all the same to me."
"The Ukraine is going to have an election at the end of May."
"You think he'll win?"
"Hard to say. Since the overthrow of the government,he hasn't been in the news much."
"Why's that?"
"The way I figure it they needed his name to win over the people of the Ukraine."
"You think he was used?"
"The people in power now are all billionaires."
"Billionaires will want to protect what they have."
"Now you're thinking,"I said.
"If he runs do you think he'll win?"
"He's very popular. The biggest hero ,with his brother, in the country."
"Do you think he'd make a good leader?"
"Hard to say.With all the billionaires grabbing up the government, and now they're getting money from the U.S. and the European Union.You have to make concessions."
"You mean sell out."
"Maybe that was the plan all along."
"Sounds like here with our politicians."
"I saw a news clip of two of the billionaires discussing Klitschko. They hope he doesn't run for president. They say he doesn't have enough political experience."
"Sounds like a phony excuse saying he's not a big enough crook."
"The same all over the world. What do they call it?A New World Order."
Ed grabbed the remote control and turned on the TV.Bowling was on ESPN.
"So who else is running against him?"asked Ed.
"The former leader. She just got out of jail.She got kicked out for stealing."
"And she thinks she's got a chance?"
"Remember she's a billionaire. Billionaires always have an edge over everyone else.They can make their money talk."
"And if they can't make it talk for themselves ,they can buy someone who can talk for them."
"Now you're thinking,"I said.

[dagosd2000]

Honest Abe

[dagosd2000]

A Friendless Faith

When Cassius Clay announced to the world, after Sonny Liston spit out his mouthpiece sitting on his stool in Miami,that he had joined up with Elijah Muhammad and the Nation Of Islam people drew their battle lines. At first there weren't that many on the side of the line where Clay was standing. It didn't seem at the time that he was that angry or involved in politics let alone civil rights.But the powers behind the Nation knew that the heavyweight champion of the world was good clout for what they had to put on the table.

Well now Clay couldn't be Cassius Marcellus anymore. He needed a Muslim moniker. Some of the name changes that the converts were picking,at least to me,didn't have much of a ring to them. They weren't very catchy. At least Clay didn't opt for Abdul Jabbar. Sometimes when I'd see Lew Alcindor ambling up and down the basketball court though,he looked like an Abdul Jabbar. No,for the Louisville lip it was going to be Muhammad Ali. Yes,that was it. Ali. The name had a presence...I guess.

Early in his indoctrinations Ali gravitated to the Nation of Islam's spokesman Malcolm X. The popular(at least within the movement and growing militant attitudes of African Americans) was the equally charismatic Muslim,Malcolm X. Malcolm X had been converted to the faith while in prison.Both Ali and Malcolm X were young,energetic,and loved to speak to an audience. Their friendship was genuine. Or at least it seemed that way.

When Malcolm X became disenfranchised with Elijah Muhammad and left the movement to start his own branch of the faith called the Muslim Mosque,Muhammad Ali was tested by the Nation of Islam. If he was going to stick with his friend Malcolm,the Nation of Islam would make things bad for him. Elijah Muhammad was a very jealous man and had a vindictive streak.He coerced Ali to move away from Malcolm X,his so called friend.Ali turned his back on Malcolm X even denouncing him in public. Malcolm X was finding himself more alone and threats were being carried out against him. In 1965 he was assassinated in Harlem by people hired by the Nation of Islam. Muhammad Ali went on to be the most poplar face on the planet.He's a living legend.

I saw a documentary on Ali the other day. It said that one of his biggest regrets Ali had was that he disassociated himself with his friend. I guess his friendship didn't run that deep with Muhammad.He sold Malcolm X out.Malcolm X died for what he believed in.Sometimes I wonder how Ali didn't wind up with a bullet in him. In the documentary it also said that to this day Ali carries a photo of Malcolm X in his wallet. Maybe thinking back on everything, and how he betrayed Malcolm X,Ali decided to put all his belts and trophies in his barn and let the pigeons shit all over them.



Malcolm X

[dagosd2000]

The Good Ol' Days

I was watching this movie I hadn't seen in awhile called Night In The City. The one with Robert DeNiro and Jessica Lang. There was another Night in The City made in black and white in the 50's.It was a good flick too.It revolved around wrestling though. The one with DeNiro had to do with boxing.

DeNiro plays the part of this lowlife lawyer in Manhattan that's always hustling and running off his mouth trying to put together something that he usually is in over his head. He hangs out in this bar in lower Manhattan(I've always liked a 70's backdrop of New York City) and has this thing going with the owner's wife who's played by Jessica Lang The owner of the joint,played by Cliff Gorman,is unaware that his wife is banging DeNiro,but that isn't the point I want to make.

DeNiro becomes fascinated with the fight game after walking into a boxing gym.(I think it's Stillmans).Anyway now he wants to become a fight promoter.While he's trying to put this together he gets turned on to an old retired fighter played by Jack Warden. DeNiro needs Warden for some expertise about what he's getting into. DeNiro tells Warden that he wants to promote fights again in the local venues just like "the good ol' days." Warden buys in but remarks "there were never any good ol' days. Fighting has always been a poor man's out."It's a line that might slip by ,but it caught my attention.

Dan Hanley puts out some great interviews with ex fighters and passes them along to me and others. He doesn't go with the big name guys,but the journeymen-the pugs who typified what the sport was all about. It's great stuff. I've told Dan to put his collections of interviews together and find a publisher. They are bitter sweet recollections of guys that did what they knew how to do best, fight. They fought growing up in tough neighborhoods to survive.Why not get paid for it. It wouldn't be a stretch.

To get back to the "poor man's out" theme. None of these fighters interviewed ever reached the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. The people they had to bow to wound up with most of the dough- and didn't have to take any punches.

A recent Hanley interview was with the slick welterweight Adolpho Pruitt.He's got some fighters he works with in Los Angeles.I guess he can't get away from boxing. If anything,he knows about fighting. Dan asked him what was his biggest purse. Pruitt answered 20 grand. "When I got paid I went out and bought me a Cadillac".

Try to find a better metaphor about what I am talking about.

[dagosd2000]

The late Frankie Crawford

[El Gallo]

Carlos Palomino

Carlos was one of my favorite fighters. Him and Lil Red.
Class in the ring and out.
Anyone remember seeing Carlos on an episode of the great old show "Taxi"? Im certain you guys have.
Of course Tony Danza was a star on that program.

I will have lunch with Carlos Palomino, Armando Muniz, Bobby Chacon, Alex Ramos, Frank Santillan, and Rudy Hernandez, Alan Swyer, Frank Duarte & John Bray on thursday @ Vitello's in Studio City. West Coast Boxing Hall of Fame business for a benefit we will hold on May 25th. We do things the other West Coast Hall of Fames would never do. We are for the fighters, not the weak egos of the organizers.

[El Gallo]

The late Frankie Crawford

I forwarded this to Jeff Crawford, Frankie's son.

[dagosd2000]

The late Frankie Crawford

I forwarded this to Jeff Crawford, Frankie's son.

Thanks Rick. Nice of you to do that. Rog

[dagosd2000]

12 To 6

I was watching the Padre game on TV behind a glass of beer at Champs Lounge. Ed the bartender had his back to me watching the game also.The Padres had opened the season at home with the LA Dodgers.
"Well what do you think of the Padres chances this year?,"Ed asked me with his back still at my face.
"They won't get out of the second division,"I answered.
"They didn't get anyone in the off season that can help them much."
"The owners are a bunch of cheapskates."
"They're making money with the club,"said Ed leaning his back against the bar."What do they care?"
"That's why I won't go to any games,"I said moving the glass of beer around ."Why should I give them any of my money."
"It's like a restaurant with bad food.Why would you keep going back?"
"That's the way I see it.The Padres are a lousy product. But they get good crowds every year."
Ed turned around and began wiping off the bar with a towel.
"They say times are tough,but they can still draw a couple of million,"said Ed.
"I remember when you could sit behind home plate for five bucks when they first arrived."
"And they could never hit a million."
"I don't see how people can buy into it.It's not cheap to go to a game today and take your family."
Ed turned around to watch the game again. The Dodger pitcher on the mound was Greinke.He was one of their aces. He had a Cy Young in his trophy case. Greinke was working on a Padre hitter. The Padre announcer Mark Grant was talking about his 'stuff'.
"Greinke's got a 12 to 6 curve ball,"he said.
"Wow,that was a cool way to describe his curve ball,"said Ed with his back to me again.
"Yeah,he knows all the 'in' jargon.He was with the team for awhile. He can throw those expressions out there forever,"I said.
"He also calls a curve ball a 'yacker' ".
"That's real cool.I'll have to remember that one," I said still moving the glass around.
Greinke struck out the Padre batter.The Dodgers were up by a couple of runs. The game broke to a commercial. Ed turned around again.
"I still don't understand all the interest,"he said. "They had a record crowd Sunday."
"Maybe they all want to learn those fancy words."

[dagosd2000]

Roberto Clemente

[Randyman]

Roberto Clemente

[Randyman]

Butterflies and Canaries

I got a call from my trainer Mel Epstein telling me that the Main Street Gym would be closed for a couple of days and that I would be working out at Jake Shugrue's Seaside gym in Long Beach. I picked up Mel at mid morning and we headed to the gym. This was the first time I met Jake. Like most trainers of that time He was a little rough around the edge and Runyunesque in character.

I was told I would be sparring. I was feeling good and was anxious to get started. I warmed up and began my work out, keeping in mind that I would be sparring. I had only sparred once before. Mel called me over and told me I would be sparring in a few minutes. He laced up my gloves and in a few minutes I was standing in the ring. I watched as the guy I would be sparring with climbed into the ring. A black guy more or less my age, maybe a little younger. He looked lean and hard.

As the round started I began to box him. He was very quick. I did not have the sense yet to realize that we were sparring, not fighting. Mel was on the ring apron leaning on the ropes. I could hear him talking to me but I was focused on the guy in front of me. I was trying too hard. I was trying to make a fight of it. One round ended and another began.

I don't know where it came from but I heard a loud explosion. It seemed to come from far off. I felt confused. Next I heard a whooshing sound , whoosh, whoosh, whoosh, and I felt myself falling like a freshly cut tree. I landed hard and I remember thinking, “Did I faint?” Again I was confused. I got on my hands and knees slowly and looked up and there they were, yellow butterflies and canaries all around me, all I could see was yellow. I shook my head from side to side, still wondering what happened. As the butterflies and canaries began to clear Mel came into view. He had a smirk on his face and let out a little laugh and then it hit me. I was knocked down.

I should have kept my cool but I could not. I was furious. I jumped up and went at him with everything I had but I was too angry, too prideful. The round ended, I climbed through the ropes and Mel was wiping me down. The guy walked up to me with an extended hand and said “I'm sorry but it seemed like you wanted to fight”. That guy had a lot of class. I shook his hand and said, “That's okay, no problem” My pride was hurt and I had embarrassed myself. I was told later that it was a right hand. that caught me because I kept my left too low. I cannot remember the punch for the life of me, just my reaction. I don't remember his name, or if I ever knew it but I remember him.

I learned a few things that day. From that day on I kept my cool. It was a lesson in humility ( I would have more). I stopped thinking so highly of myself. It also made me sharper and more determined. I can't say I had much of a career but I can say that those things we learn at the gym and in the ring carry over into our lives. I raised my children on that belief. Boxing is a microcosm of life, you just have to look closely.

[dagosd2000]

Butterflies and Canaries

I got a call from my trainer Mel Epstein telling me that the Main Street Gym would be closed for a couple of days and that I would be working out at Jake Shugrue's Seaside gym in Long Beach. I picked up Mel at mid morning and we headed to the gym. This was the first time I met Jake. Like most trainers of that time He was a little rough around the edge and Runyunesque in character.

I was told I would be sparring. I was feeling good and was anxious to get started. I warmed up and began my work out, keeping in mind that I would be sparring. I had only sparred once before. Mel called me over and told me I would be sparring in a few minutes. He laced up my gloves and in a few minutes I was standing in the ring. I watched as the guy I would be sparring with climbed into the ring. A black guy more or less my age, maybe a little younger. He looked lean and hard.

As the round started I began to box him. He was very quick. I did not have the sense yet to realize that we were sparring, not fighting. Mel was on the ring apron leaning on the ropes. I could hear him talking to me but I was focused on the guy in front of me. I was trying too hard. I was trying to make a fight of it. One round ended and another began.

I don't know where it came from but I heard a loud explosion. It seemed to come from far off. I felt confused. Next I heard a whooshing sound , whoosh, whoosh, whoosh, and I felt myself falling like a freshly cut tree. I landed hard and I remember thinking, “Did I faint?” Again I was confused. I got on my hands and knees slowly and looked up and there they were, yellow butterflies and canaries all around me, all I could see was yellow. I shook my head from side to side, still wondering what happened. As the butterflies and canaries began to clear Mel came into view. He had a smirk on his face and let out a little laugh and then it hit me. I was knocked down.

I should have kept my cool but I could not. I was furious. I jumped up and went at him with everything I had but I was too angry, too prideful. The round ended, I climbed through the ropes and Mel was wiping me down. The guy walked up to me with an extended hand and said “I'm sorry but it seemed like you wanted to fight”. That guy had a lot of class. I shook his hand and said, “That's okay, no problem” My pride was hurt and I had embarrassed myself. I was told later that it was a right hand. that caught me because I kept my left too low. I cannot remember the punch for the life of me, just my reaction. I don't remember his name, or if I ever knew it but I remember him.

I learned a few things that day. From that day on I kept my cool. It was a lesson in humility ( I would have more). I stopped thinking so highly of myself. It also made me sharper and more determined. I can't say I had much of a career but I can say that those things we learn at the gym and in the ring carry over into our lives. I raised my children on that belief. Boxing is a microcosm of life, you just have to look closely.

Great story Randy.For fighters,fighting is a business. Sometimes I'd see guys want to get in the ring wanting to test themselves for courage when the bottom line is fighting is a business.Ego for the most part is not an issue. If it's a matter of trying to prove something then find something where you don't have to pit yourself against another human being.

[Expug]

Great stuff Randy.
The main thing in that event is you got back up and carried on. You got back in there again.
Just think of how many people,not just in boxing,but in all walks of life run into the proverbial right hand and spit the bit. Never go back at it,never try again.
Its true what the first "Rocky" movie was really about. It is about going the distance and standing at the end. It really is all about getting back up. Its not corny at all. There is a great book out there called I believe,"The Art of Learning" by chess prodigy Josh Waitzkin. There is a segment in it about there being two types of people when it comes to success. There is the naturally gifted super star that everything comes naturally to and there is the person who has to work super hard for everything and really push through adversity.
There really is nothing revealing about that theory, but what is interesting,is how it evolves from there. The super naturally gifted one often does not know how to cope with any failure. when he gets knocked on his dupa he freaks out. "Wait,this cant happen to me". He cant regroup.
Whereas the hard worker who has struggled through tough times and situations is able to brush it aside keep on swinging. Keep on going.
It isn't just boxing, its true with everything. We see this all the time.
Without a doubt, the greatest thing about boxing is we learn about ourselves in a real hurry.
Do you believe there are actually men walking around in the world who have never had a fight in their lives?
Some people would regard this as a great thing. Not me, I feel sorry for that guy. He probably doesnt know about himself eh?

[dagosd2000]

Alfred Hitchcock

I saw an interview once with the great director. I think it was on the Dick Cavett show. Hitchcock said that he would never direct a cowboy movie or a movie about boxing. Somehow I think he knew his limitations.

[Chuck1052]

Roger- Alfred Hitchcock did direct a boxing movie called "The Ring" in 1927. I saw it on the Turner Classic Movie channel last year.

- Chuck Johnston