Boxing Blasphemy

[Ezzard]

I think the Marciano stuff has been done so much it doesn't feel like blasphemy. In fact the opposite would be true.

- Despite having Ali as #1 at heavy his overall reputation is enhanced by beating Liston and Foreman...who were both tailor made for him...and were hugely overrated going into the fights.

- Foreman without the punch that KO'd Moorer is not a top 10 HW.

- Despite Whittaker getting a moral win against Chavez in their fight, Chavez has the better record.

[Ambling Alp II]

Some of these are legit points which goes against the grain. Some are silly. Some are actually reasonable statements, but there doesn't seem to be an something that contradicts general opinion.

Anyway, here are few of my own:

-Styles makes fights. It's a gross exaggeration.
-It's a good thing that fights were change from 15 to 12 rounds. Everybody remembers some classics where something dramatic happened in the 13th-15th rounds. However, the vast majority of the time, the guy ahead after 12 coasted to victory.
-Lennox Lewis had as good of a chin as Mike Tyson.
-Jimmy Young didn't deserve the decison vs Ali. His offense was almost non-existent in the fight.
Ezzard Charles is not clearly the best light heavy. You can argue for him, but there are a few others right with him.

[The End]

Lennox Lewis would beat Muhammad Ali and Jack Johnson.

Roy Jones would beat Marvin Hagler and I know there isn't any footage of him but I'd put money on Jones beating Greb too.

Michael Spinks was a greater light heavyweight than Gene Tunney and Sam Langford.

Paul Williams did beat Lara.

Duran would be slaughter by Hearns 10 out of 10 times at any weight.

Edit: I also believe Monzon would be soundly out boxed by Hagler,Robinson,Leonard,Jones and Toney.

[TheWigwam]

Lennox Lewis is the most overrated boxer I can think of (still great but not as great I keep hearing imo) Don't like saying it but I think it's true.

[elmersalsa]

The great Sugar Ray Robinson was not the most complete fighter ever. I could name about 10 fighters that were more complete than he.

The Duran vs Leonard I fight was not a close fight at all.

I do not see a middleweight on earth beating the great Carlos Monzon at his very best.

The ONLY WAY to beat the great Thomas Hearns is applying a substantial amount of pressure. You cannot outbox The Hitman.

Oscar De LaHoya was not a great fighter. Neither Felix "Tito" Trinidad. They should not enter in the top 100 p4p list in no book.

The jr. middleweight and middleweight divisions were TOO BIG for the great Roberto Duran

Duran did not lose to the greats Wilfred Benitez, Thomas Hearns nor Marvin Hagler in his own weight and prime.

The great Sugar Ray Leonard CAUGHT DURAN in an OFF NIGHT in the "No Mas" match.

The great Mike Tyson blows out any heavyweight champion before the great Sonny Liston with the exception of the great Jack Johnson.

Hagler and Monzon would beat Robinson and Greb.

I'll put my money and heart on Duran against any welterweight in history, including Robinson.

The great Eusebio Pedroza was ducked by the top champions.

[Ambling Alp II]

editor's note: elmer salsa himself once said that he had Duran winning the first fight by 3 points.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

If you mean the first Leonard fight, that's a bit close.

[BoxBuzz]

The great Sugar Ray Robinson was not the most complete fighter ever. I could name about 10 fighters that were more complete than he.

The Duran vs Leonard I fight was not a close fight at all.

I do not see a middleweight on earth beating the great Carlos Monzon at his very best.

The ONLY WAY to beat the great Thomas Hearns is applying a substantial amount of pressure. You cannot outbox The Hitman.

Oscar De LaHoya was not a great fighter. Neither Felix "Tito" Trinidad. They should not enter in the top 100 p4p list in no book.

The jr. middleweight and middleweight divisions were TOO BIG for the great Roberto Duran

Duran did not lose to the greats Wilfred Benitez, Thomas Hearns nor Marvin Hagler in his own weight and prime.

The great Sugar Ray Leonard CAUGHT DURAN in an OFF NIGHT in the "No Mas" match.

The great Mike Tyson blows out any heavyweight champion before the great Sonny Liston with the exception of the great Jack Johnson.

Hagler and Monzon would beat Robinson and Greb.

I'll put my money and heart on Duran against any welterweight in history, including Robinson.

The great Eusebio Pedroza was ducked by the top champions.

Let me get this straight......and I'm just wondering...not reacting.

IF Duran is the best WW ever.....is he ALSO the best LW ever? I am of the opinion he was a better LW than WW....are you? I think he performed a bit better at LW than WW. Surely more tested? And would you give him this WW honor based soley on his WW performance against Leonard?

Like I say....just takin' it in here.

[elmersalsa]

Hello Boxbuzz:

Of all the welterweights in history that I have seen perform on tape, to me, I will put that Duran that beat Sugar Ray in Montreal against anybody of any era. What a fighter he was that night. The way he fought Sugar Ray, was one of the greatest performances I have seen of any fighter. How he made Leonard miss, his durability, counterpunching and giving angles in a position to fire his shots, ferocity and ring generalship was off the chain. He would have KO'd Leonard if Leonard would have not be doing all that clutching and grabbing. That fight was not a close fight. It just looked close because of the clutching and grabbing by Leonard.

Duran in Montreal and Duran in New Orleans are two different fighters. It is like salt and sugar, oil and water, or night and day.

I do not see no lightweight in history beating him, either.

[Ezzard]

In the interests of an argument which is sort of what this thread is about… I will list a few points made that I think are a touch too far. In other words, I don’t agree with many things posted but can see that they could be argued and don’t have a problem with them. I am only listing the things where I think it’s a little too much

Seamus - Jack Johnson was a fraud

This seems a step too far. His pre-title record was as good as anyone’s and he was written about with great reverence. Overrated for some (not me) but a fraud is too much.

Saad - Bob Foster wasn't a Top 15 Light Heavyweight

Foster was champion, that’s the proper champion, for 6 years and made 14 defences… I think that’s either the record or the second best after Archie Moore. That’s extremely impressive. Titles mean very little these days but back then they did. And challengers raised their game for that once in a lifetime shot. Wins over Finngean (Fight Of the year), Rondon and Tiger…draw with Ahumada.

It’s a strong division but Bob was the greatest LHW between Moore and Spinks…and would only come second to Spinks in the last 50 years of the division.

Saad - Holman Williams was greater than Charley Burley

I think this is just a case of people not really knowing too much about Holman

Alp - It's a good thing that fights were change from 15 to 12 rounds. Everybody remembers some classics where something dramatic happened in the 13th-15th rounds. However, the vast majority of the time, the guy ahead after 12 coasted to victory.

You could apply this to round 10 or round 8 or round 5. You can also apply it to almost all sports. 15 to 12 changed the sport in a fundamental way.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Bob might not make my top 25.

[palooka]

Bob might not make my top 25.

You can list 25 light heavyweights better than Bob Foster?

[Ezzard]

Bob might not make my top 25.

And from the last 50 years?

[tiny_acres]

Bob might not make my top 25.

This is laughable.

[palooka]

I don't think Salvador Sanchez ducked Pedroza and I think Gomez and Nelson would have boxed him.

[IKSRTFO]

The great Sugar Ray Robinson was not the most complete fighter ever. I could name about 10 fighters that were more complete than he.

The Duran vs Leonard I fight was not a close fight at all.

I do not see a middleweight on earth beating the great Carlos Monzon at his very best.

The ONLY WAY to beat the great Thomas Hearns is applying a substantial amount of pressure. You cannot outbox The Hitman.

Oscar De LaHoya was not a great fighter. Neither Felix "Tito" Trinidad. They should not enter in the top 100 p4p list in no book.

The jr. middleweight and middleweight divisions were TOO BIG for the great Roberto Duran

Duran did not lose to the greats Wilfred Benitez, Thomas Hearns nor Marvin Hagler in his own weight and prime.

The great Sugar Ray Leonard CAUGHT DURAN in an OFF NIGHT in the "No Mas" match.

The great Mike Tyson blows out any heavyweight champion before the great Sonny Liston with the exception of the great Jack Johnson.

Hagler and Monzon would beat Robinson and Greb.

I'll put my money and heart on Duran against any welterweight in history, including Robinson.

The great Eusebio Pedroza was ducked by the top champions.

Don't think that's blasphemous at all. I thought that was common knowledge.

[palooka]

The great Sugar Ray Robinson was not the most complete fighter ever. I could name about 10 fighters that were more complete than he.

The Duran vs Leonard I fight was not a close fight at all.

I do not see a middleweight on earth beating the great Carlos Monzon at his very best.

The ONLY WAY to beat the great Thomas Hearns is applying a substantial amount of pressure. You cannot outbox The Hitman.

Oscar De LaHoya was not a great fighter. Neither Felix "Tito" Trinidad. They should not enter in the top 100 p4p list in no book.

The jr. middleweight and middleweight divisions were TOO BIG for the great Roberto Duran

Duran did not lose to the greats Wilfred Benitez, Thomas Hearns nor Marvin Hagler in his own weight and prime.

The great Sugar Ray Leonard CAUGHT DURAN in an OFF NIGHT in the "No Mas" match.

The great Mike Tyson blows out any heavyweight champion before the great Sonny Liston with the exception of the great Jack Johnson.

Hagler and Monzon would beat Robinson and Greb.

I'll put my money and heart on Duran against any welterweight in history, including Robinson.

The great Eusebio Pedroza was ducked by the top champions.

Don't think that's blasphemous at all. I thought that was common knowledge.

The under rated Bob Foster would have brought plenty to the table to box with Hearns (at light heavy), he was as tall, had a left held low and serious power in both mitts. Michael Spinks at light heavy would have had a good argument with Hearns as well without having to resort to insane pressure tactics.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Bob might not make my top 25.

You can list 25 light heavyweights better than Bob Foster?

I'd have to dig deep into the records for anything concrete, but I can list 25 off of the top of my head that can be debated. It's a loaded division.

Greb, Charles, Tunney, Moore, Loughran, Rosenbloom, Slattery, Pastrano, Spinks, Delaney, Gibbons, Stribling, Marshall, Bivins, Lewis, Saad Muhammad, Maxim, Johnson, Fox, Norfolk, Langford, Knight, Carpentier, Bettina, Berlenbach, O'Brien, Dillon.

[palooka]

That's really impressive and a fantastic list I've seen only 4 of those men box - Ezzard Charles (only seen at heavyweight), Archie Moore, Michael Spinks, Matthew Saad Muhammed. I've read about Greb, Loughran, Tunney and Rosenbloom (slapsy Maxie?).

I'd imagine that it'd be better to seperate modern boxers from the antiquated ones, many of the write ups are very romantic and overblown whereas with the modern boxers we can evaluate with our own eyes and minds.

I'd not put Foster at the bottom of the list though.

[IKSRTFO]

The great Sugar Ray Robinson was not the most complete fighter ever. I could name about 10 fighters that were more complete than he.

The Duran vs Leonard I fight was not a close fight at all.

I do not see a middleweight on earth beating the great Carlos Monzon at his very best.

The ONLY WAY to beat the great Thomas Hearns is applying a substantial amount of pressure. You cannot outbox The Hitman.

Oscar De LaHoya was not a great fighter. Neither Felix "Tito" Trinidad. They should not enter in the top 100 p4p list in no book.

The jr. middleweight and middleweight divisions were TOO BIG for the great Roberto Duran

Duran did not lose to the greats Wilfred Benitez, Thomas Hearns nor Marvin Hagler in his own weight and prime.

The great Sugar Ray Leonard CAUGHT DURAN in an OFF NIGHT in the "No Mas" match.

The great Mike Tyson blows out any heavyweight champion before the great Sonny Liston with the exception of the great Jack Johnson.

Hagler and Monzon would beat Robinson and Greb.

I'll put my money and heart on Duran against any welterweight in history, including Robinson.

The great Eusebio Pedroza was ducked by the top champions.

Don't think that's blasphemous at all. I thought that was common knowledge.

The under rated Bob Foster would have brought plenty to the table to box with Hearns (at light heavy), he was as tall, had a left held low and serious power in both mitts. Michael Spinks at light heavy would have had a good argument with Hearns as well without having to resort to insane pressure tactics.

Not saying it isn't possible at all but generally speaking not many boxers have a chance boxing with Hearns.

[palooka]

Don't think that's blasphemous at all. I thought that was common knowledge.[/quote]

The under rated Bob Foster would have brought plenty to the table to box with Hearns (at light heavy), he was as tall, had a left held low and serious power in both mitts. Michael Spinks at light heavy would have had a good argument with Hearns as well without having to resort to insane pressure tactics.[/quote]

Not saying it isn't possible at all but generally speaking not many boxers have a chance boxing with Hearns.[/quote]


No, I agree; Tommy had tremendous natural advantages and had learnt how to box in a tough gym from a master trainer. I'd not be able to think of many people at all that would able to out manouver him .

[Ambling Alp II]

In the interests of an argument which is sort of what this thread is about… I will list a few points made that I think are a touch too far. In other words, I don’t agree with many things posted but can see that they could be argued and don’t have a problem with them. I am only listing the things where I think it’s a little too much

Seamus - Jack Johnson was a fraud

This seems a step too far. His pre-title record was as good as anyone’s and he was written about with great reverence. Overrated for some (not me) but a fraud is too much.

Saad - Bob Foster wasn't a Top 15 Light Heavyweight

Foster was champion, that’s the proper champion, for 6 years and made 14 defences… I think that’s either the record or the second best after Archie Moore. That’s extremely impressive. Titles mean very little these days but back then they did. And challengers raised their game for that once in a lifetime shot. Wins over Finngean (Fight Of the year), Rondon and Tiger…draw with Ahumada.

It’s a strong division but Bob was the greatest LHW between Moore and Spinks…and would only come second to Spinks in the last 50 years of the division.

Saad - Holman Williams was greater than Charley Burley

I think this is just a case of people not really knowing too much about Holman

Alp - It's a good thing that fights were change from 15 to 12 rounds. Everybody remembers some classics where something dramatic happened in the 13th-15th rounds. However, the vast majority of the time, the guy ahead after 12 coasted to victory.

You could apply this to round 10 or round 8 or round 5. You can also apply it to almost all sports. 15 to 12 changed the sport in a fundamental way.

-In regard to fights changing from 15 to 12 rounds: There is a big difference between a fighter being behind after 12 rounds and being behind after 5 rounds. The losing fighter wins a much higher % of the time after trailing after only 5 rounds than he did after trailing after 12 rounds in 15 round fight.
I think 12 rounds is a reasonable amount to see who the better fighter is.
I agree that the move did change the sport in a fundamental way; however I think it was a fundamental way for the good. Imagine if they were still 15 rounds. Fighters would pace themselves even more and you would have more boring fights.

-As for Bob Foster:He did have 14 titles defenses; no one has had more at light heavy. Archie only had 10. I find it interesting that some people use Joe Louis' record of title defenses as reasoning why he was the best heavyweight of all time. Yet the same people not only don't consider Bob Foster the best light heavy, but don't even have him remotely close.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

That's really impressive and a fantastic list I've seen only 4 of those men box - Ezzard Charles (only seen at heavyweight), Archie Moore, Michael Spinks, Matthew Saad Muhammed. I've read about Greb, Loughran, Tunney and Rosenbloom (slapsy Maxie?).

I'd imagine that it'd be better to seperate modern boxers from the antiquated ones, many of the write ups are very romantic and overblown whereas with the modern boxers we can evaluate with our own eyes and minds.

I'd not put Foster at the bottom of the list though.

I might not have him at the bottom of it either, though I forgot Conn who I would definitely have ahead of him. Even Jones is arguable.

[elmersalsa]

I don't think Salvador Sanchez ducked Pedroza and I think Gomez and Nelson would have boxed him.

As great as Wilfredo Gomez or Azumah Nelson were, I could not phantom those two outboxing a master like Eusebio Pedroza. I cannot imagine those guys beating Pedroza either.

[Ezzard]

-In regard to fights changing from 15 to 12 rounds: There is a big difference between a fighter being behind after 12 rounds and being behind after 5 rounds. The losing fighter wins a much higher % of the time after trailing after only 5 rounds than he did after trailing after 12 rounds in 15 round fight.
I think 12 rounds is a reasonable amount to see who the better fighter is.
I agree that the move did change the sport in a fundamental way; however I think it was a fundamental way for the good. Imagine if they were still 15 rounds. Fighters would pace themselves even more and you would have more boring fights.

My problem with this is 12 rounds is just arbitrary. I think it was harder to just hold on to the win. DLH-Trinidad was a big moment... DLH thought he had 7 rounds in the bank and decided he didn't want to play anymore. Whilst I thought he won the fight I don't have much sympathy for him.

I also consider 15 round distance when taking fighters into consideration. It became a recognised standard