Who are boxings greatest trainers and why?.......

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 03 Sep 2005, 15:16

I'm interested as to which trainers people admire most.... Ray Arcel and Eddie Futch come to my mind.....

Rory McCloskey · Post by **Rory McCloskey** » 03 Sep 2005, 16:50

Angelo Dundee... ali, leanard....great actor too he was in cinderella man

tiredoldngrey · Post by **tiredoldngrey** » 03 Sep 2005, 18:34

Futch, Arcel, Goldman, Bill Miller, Beristain, Freddie Brown, Rivero ( that trained DLH for awhile), come to mind. I think that they were teachers and took care of their fighters- cooked for them, were their weight and strength coaches - and that is rare today. I am forever astounded at how little so many trainers know about boxing and what poor teachers they are; so many of the technical details that are so vital are ignored today. And the idea of a conditioining coach and all that...utter crap I call it. Why in hell would you train to box by training like a track star or a swimmer? Futch was adamant about not using your muscles in new and different ways before a fight. That is why we a overloaded with Mr Olympia body beautiful; fighters that can't go 4 hard rounds; they aren't in fighting shaope. And why aren't boxers in the gym between fights to stay in shape? That is when you add to your knowledge and learn new moves and such and "training camp" is to prepare for a specific fight, not a fat farm like this stuff today. Kevin Kelly once said he did Karate between fights. Why not box? Oops...got carried away. In short I don't think there is more than a few trainers today that are an improvement over learning froma book.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 07 Dec 2005, 21:51

5. Emmanuel Steward
4. Eddie Futch
3. Ray Arcel
2. Lou Duva
1. Angelo Dundee. When you train Muhammad Ali and Sugar Ray Leonard you've got to be the best.

Irish · Post by **Irish** » 07 Dec 2005, 22:47

1. Jack Blackburn- trained Louis and Louis owes much of his Legacy to him, look at the adjustments Louis made in his rematch with Schmelling, a true testament to Blackburn.
2. Charlie Goldman- Rocky Marciano w/o Goldman is half as good, Goldman taught Rocky how to fight out of the crouch, slip jabs , cut off the ring and Rocky became very good at these skills, he was given a man with determination and a monster right hand and turned him into one of the greatest fighters of all-time.
3. Angelo Dundee- as great he was at handling Ali, Ali often didn't listen to him, but he refuse tod let him quit and pulled some tricks to help Ali, but he does gets my full credit for SRL.
4. Eddie Futch
5. Lou Duva

The first 3 are those after that IMO it is debatable.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 07 Dec 2005, 23:04

yeah defintley blackburn, who was one of the smartest fighters and trainers when it came to master boxing and figuring out styles.

blackburn taught jersey joe some pretty cute tricks before walcott got thypoid and blackburn went off to louis.

blackburn would find the weaknesses and show joe to exploit them on any fighter, and blackburn could figure out even the littlest of flaws that one could take advantage of, he was so smart.
NOTICE HOW JOE LOUIS ALWAYS DESTROYED HIS OPPONENTS IN REMATCHES, part of it was due to blackburns training

it was blackburn who changed louis from a boxer-mover to a more aggresive fighter. blackburn totally developed louis left hook into one of the best, a weapon he did not know he had .

blackburn corrected louis weakness of dropping his left after throwing a jab and pulling back. it would never be a problem again for his entire career. holmes never fully corrected his problem and throuhout his career he wass hurt by right hands.

charley goldman was also one of the greats. he was perfect for marciano, if it was anyone else they would have tried to totally change his rockys style making him nothing more than a clubfighter.
but goldman saw that marciano had some huge attributes so he simply worked on marcianos defense, balance, and philospohys of boxing without chaning marcianos overaall style. he knew rocky would always be crude, so he made marciano use it to his advantage and become an ackward target.

goldman also worked with lou ambers and marty servo.

steward should not be top 5, he made plenty of mistakes in his career. he was a very good one, but not top 5.

my top 5

1. eddie futch
2. jack blackburn
3. ray arcel
4. angelo dundee
5. Cus D amato- would have liked to see him train more people because he was one of the smartest trainers of all time

others:

Buddy mcgirt- highly underated as a trainer
charley goldman- too bad he didnt get more fighters to train
gil clancy
lou duva

crazedboxer · Post by **crazedboxer** » 07 Dec 2005, 23:11

wouldn't it be fare to say with Angelo Dundee that the fighters made the trainer. I mean c'mon you can stick most any trainer with the talent of an Ali or Leonard and get the same result. You never really saw Dundee bring up a champion. He was always hired out to guide a current star or champion.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 08 Dec 2005, 00:00

crazedboxer wrote:wouldn't it be fare to say with Angelo Dundee that the fighters made the trainer. I mean c'mon you can stick most any trainer with the talent of an Ali or Leonard and get the same result. You never really saw Dundee bring up a champion. He was always hired out to guide a current star or champion.

let me put it this way, if it wasnt for angelo yanking ali off the seat of his pants and telling him to "run" when ali was about to quit against liston, there would have never beeen muhammad ali. seems harsh but its true.

or maybe u forget the time, ali before the bell of the 5th round vs cooper still badly hurt and out on his feet and angelo dundee widens the tear on his glove to give ali more recovery time

angelo dundee was perfect for ali. never interfeared with anything outside the ring or caused trouble, he let ali do his thing as long as ali did his thing in the gym. ali always loved angelo and admired him for that, the closest white man freind ali ever had.

angelo also never tried to change his style like archie did

i believe one time ali defended angelo once during confrentation or something, someone might have made a remark toward angelo.

john2345 · Post by **john2345** » 08 Dec 2005, 06:04

Surprised there's been no mention of Whitey Bimstein.... was he regarded as more of a "second" than a trainer...? Reason to include him....He was involved with a lot of champions over the years, and was highly regarded by the people in the sport.

Other than Whitey, I'd list

Ray Arcel.... quality of fighters and champions he produced (worked with Whitey for a long time, so maybe Whitey was seen as the lesser partner of the two?)

Angelo Dundee - look at the champions he trained... plus his ability to read a fight and motivate his fighter

Of today's trainers, my favourite is Buddy McGirt...intelligent, reads a fight well, great motivator

At risk of setting the forum ablaze (!) I'd suggest that Teddy Atlas had the potential to be a great trainer, albeit he used some strange "motivational techniques" at times.

Interesting thread

J

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 08 Dec 2005, 06:55

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:yeah defintley blackburn, who was one of the smartest fighters and trainers when it came to master boxing and figuring out styles.

blackburn taught jersey joe some pretty cute tricks before walcott got thypoid and blackburn went off to louis.

blackburn would find the weaknesses and show joe to exploit them on any fighter, and blackburn could figure out even the littlest of flaws that one could take advantage of, he was so smart.
NOTICE HOW JOE LOUIS ALWAYS DESTROYED HIS OPPONENTS IN REMATCHES, part of it was due to blackburns training

it was blackburn who changed louis from a boxer-mover to a more aggresive fighter. blackburn totally developed louis left hook into one of the best, a weapon he did not know he had .

blackburn corrected louis weakness of dropping his left after throwing a jab and pulling back. it would never be a problem again for his entire career. holmes never fully corrected his problem and throuhout his career he wass hurt by right hands.

charley goldman was also one of the greats. he was perfect for marciano, if it was anyone else they would have tried to totally change his rockys style making him nothing more than a clubfighter.
but goldman saw that marciano had some huge attributes so he simply worked on marcianos defense, balance, and philospohys of boxing without chaning marcianos overaall style. he knew rocky would always be crude, so he made marciano use it to his advantage and become an ackward target.

goldman also worked with lou ambers and marty servo.

steward should not be top 5, he made plenty of mistakes in his career. he was a very good one, but not top 5.

my top 5

1. eddie futch
2. jack blackburn
3. ray arcel
4. angelo dundee
5. Cus D amato- would have liked to see him train more people because he was one of the smartest trainers of all time

others:

Buddy mcgirt- highly underated as a trainer
charley goldman- too bad he didnt get more fighters to train
gil clancy
lou duva

Wasn't Cus more of a guru? Maybe that was more with Tyson... I like your top 3.

I also agree that Dundee was good becaue he did not interefere with Ali. He knew how to motivate him and make it work for him. Ali had a lot of respect for him and this went beyond race and Islam. A lot of the black muslims wanted Ali to drop Dundee becasue of his jewish connections.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 08 Dec 2005, 07:39

Ezzard wrote:
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:yeah defintley blackburn, who was one of the smartest fighters and trainers when it came to master boxing and figuring out styles.

blackburn taught jersey joe some pretty cute tricks before walcott got thypoid and blackburn went off to louis.

blackburn would find the weaknesses and show joe to exploit them on any fighter, and blackburn could figure out even the littlest of flaws that one could take advantage of, he was so smart.
NOTICE HOW JOE LOUIS ALWAYS DESTROYED HIS OPPONENTS IN REMATCHES, part of it was due to blackburns training

it was blackburn who changed louis from a boxer-mover to a more aggresive fighter. blackburn totally developed louis left hook into one of the best, a weapon he did not know he had .

blackburn corrected louis weakness of dropping his left after throwing a jab and pulling back. it would never be a problem again for his entire career. holmes never fully corrected his problem and throuhout his career he wass hurt by right hands.

charley goldman was also one of the greats. he was perfect for marciano, if it was anyone else they would have tried to totally change his rockys style making him nothing more than a clubfighter.
but goldman saw that marciano had some huge attributes so he simply worked on marcianos defense, balance, and philospohys of boxing without chaning marcianos overaall style. he knew rocky would always be crude, so he made marciano use it to his advantage and become an ackward target.

goldman also worked with lou ambers and marty servo.

steward should not be top 5, he made plenty of mistakes in his career. he was a very good one, but not top 5.

my top 5

1. eddie futch
2. jack blackburn
3. ray arcel
4. angelo dundee
5. Cus D amato- would have liked to see him train more people because he was one of the smartest trainers of all time

others:

Buddy mcgirt- highly underated as a trainer
charley goldman- too bad he didnt get more fighters to train
gil clancy
lou duva
Wasn't Cus more of a guru? Maybe that was more with Tyson... I like your top 3.

I also agree that Dundee was good becaue he did not interefere with Ali. He knew how to motivate him and make it work for him. Ali had a lot of respect for him and this went beyond race and Islam. A lot of the black muslims wanted Ali to drop Dundee becasue of his jewish connections.

great post ezzard, are they ur top 3 as well?

- well wasnt it cus who taught tyson and patterson and torres the adamant and art of that peek a boo style?? so wouldnt that clasify him as a trainer?? he was kinda both

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 08 Dec 2005, 07:41

Dan florio, trained jersey joe walcott and floyd patterson and others.

anyone know if he taught jersey joe some of those moves, or did joe invent them on his own??

i believe when blackburn had walcott early in his career, he taught walcott a couple tricks that walcott perfected on his own later in his career

KO Artist · Post by **KO Artist** » 08 Dec 2005, 10:32

silkov wrote:I'm interested as to which trainers people admire most.... Ray Arcel and Eddie Futch come to my mind.....

Jackie Blackurn
Bill Miller
Ray Arcel
Freddie Brown
Freddie Hill
George Francis
Jimmy Williams
Eddie Futch

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 10 Dec 2005, 12:12

crazedboxer wrote:wouldn't it be fare to say with Angelo Dundee that the fighters made the trainer. I mean c'mon you can stick most any trainer with the talent of an Ali or Leonard and get the same result. You never really saw Dundee bring up a champion. He was always hired out to guide a current star or champion.

That's not really true. For example, he helped Jimmy Ellis to the WBA title. Ellis started his career out at middleweight and didn't have that good of a record. No one dreamed he would ever do as well at heavyweight as he did.
Dundee also helped Willie Pastrano win the light heavyweight title in the early 1960's. Pastrano certainly was no phenomenal talent.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 10 Dec 2005, 12:16

I don't think anyone mentioned Jack Kearns. He helped turn Dempsey's career around as his manager/trainer. Dempsey lost the title after he let Kearns go.
He also trained Mickey Walker,Joey Maxim and Archie Moore.

Chuck1052 · Post by **Chuck1052** » 10 Dec 2005, 15:08

Other top trainers included:

1. Billy Delaney
2. Jack Hurley
3. Jackie McCoy
4. Spider Kelly of San Francisco
5. Freddie Roach

- Chuck Johnston

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 29 Dec 2005, 00:28

I always had alot of respect for the Petronellis. Very proffesional in the corner. Also took Hagler from scratch.They were always very calm when things got tough.Yelling and carrying on in the corner does not always work to motivate.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 29 Dec 2005, 05:19

i agree manny steward is overated

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 29 Dec 2005, 12:32

But how many of the trainers listed above have started the guys from scratch?

Most times a top amateur gets put together with an established trainer, normally a `celebrity` trainer, and by then most of the work has been done its just a case of fine-tuning things.

But Brendan Ingle has started almost all of his best known boxers from day1, that has to count for alot more.
The little I know of the Ingle way of teaching looks a very good way to do it, he really teaches boxing in a way I would encourage others to do.

I think I am correct in saying that Johnny Nelson was in the gym for about 3yrs before he was said to be good enough to be allowed to have his 1st amateur fight...that says it all for me......almost all amateur gyms I have been to will put a boy in to fight as soon as a card is sortted for him.

What other trainer can compare with Ingle in having started with a youngster and turned him into a world class operator?

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 29 Dec 2005, 13:24

So who do you have in mind?

ferroz · Post by **ferroz** » 29 Dec 2005, 15:15

Decagon wrote:Ingle? If you're going to talk about a trainer taking fighters from day 1, at least pick someone better.

By the way I have a question about Ingle, how the hell was he able to train Hamed with that Crazy style?

ferroz · Post by **ferroz** » 30 Dec 2005, 01:58

But alot of the things Hamed did clearly broke the cardinal sins of boxing like backing straight out with your hands down after a combination, and the leaping thing. How could he not correct those things without losing the originality of the fighter?

tiredoldngrey · Post by **tiredoldngrey** » 30 Dec 2005, 05:00

In boxing today there is a deadly shortage of good trainers, at both ends of the spectrum. There is a woeful lack of teachers out there starting off boxers properly, with sound fundamentals both offensively and defensively. Simple things like keeping the right hand in placew to catch your opponents jab seem to be lost arts; using the shoulder to block the right hand is considered advanced fair when it should be in lesson 1 or 2. Most fighters today face their foes square up, legs too far apart to move well and too far apart to get weight into punches. They are all arm-punching, defensively ignorant boxer punchers.
There is also a profound lack of trainers that can really improve a guy after he turns pro, much less make him a polished professional. The sport is full of guys with world titles that look like they are drowning when they fight, and when can any one last recall seeing a boxer come out and fight like he had a plan?

ferroz · Post by **ferroz** » 01 Jan 2006, 05:04

tiredoldngrey wrote:In boxing today there is a deadly shortage of good trainers, at both ends of the spectrum. There is a woeful lack of teachers out there starting off boxers properly, with sound fundamentals both offensively and defensively. Simple things like keeping the right hand in placew to catch your opponents jab seem to be lost arts; using the shoulder to block the right hand is considered advanced fair when it should be in lesson 1 or 2. Most fighters today face their foes square up, legs too far apart to move well and too far apart to get weight into punches. They are all arm-punching, defensively ignorant boxer punchers.
There is also a profound lack of trainers that can really improve a guy after he turns pro, much less make him a polished professional. The sport is full of guys with world titles that look like they are drowning when they fight, and when can any one last recall seeing a boxer come out and fight like he had a plan?

I'm sure there must be some exceptions to what you are saying. Like Toney, Hopkins, and Mayweather (old school fighters) and Freddie Roach (taught by the master Futch himself), Teddy Atlas (Cus pupil). Those guys are good.

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 01 Jan 2006, 05:15

At the present time, I would say Buddy McGirt.

He's worked wonders with his fighters.

Who are boxings greatest trainers and why?.......

Who are boxings greatest trainers and why?.......

Re: Who are boxings greatest trainers and why?.......

Other Trainers