His Greatest Hour?

Datsue
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Re: His Greatest Hour?

Post by Datsue »

misterpunch wrote:
Datsue wrote:
Ambers is a fantastic win, but the one for the featherweight title over Armstrong is hard to beat. For some reason I've got a feeling that was only for like three states'-worth of a world title, but can't be bothered to look it up.

Er. Daniel Zaragoza.
why would that happen? very strange - oops Zaragoza is not my man...someone else post :TU:

I think it's 'cos, despite what our fathers told us, it was actually common that a lot of titles back then weren't actually "undisputed". Most were, but some splintered like motherfuckers & it's basically been hushed up. Yet the same people who are happy not noting that technically Lee Savold was recognised by someone as heavyweight champion will often be the first to throw up their hands & go "Eeewwwww modern boxing fractured titles waaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!"

When Freddie Mills KO'd Len Harvey, for instance, for the British & Commonwealth light-heavy titles, Harvey apparently had some bullshit claim for the "world" title, but after winning Mills never mentioned it (probably felt embarrassed). Fred Apostoli & Freddie Steele were both middleweight champion back in the 1930s, & in fact the middleweight championship was split for ten years from 1930 to 1940.

Ezzard Charles wasn't undisputed champion until he KO'd the comebacking Joe Louis.

Old-timers & boxing "historians" just gloss over it, though, in an attempt to bolster the prelapsarian Golden Age of boxing myth & make them feel better about wringing their hands over the state of boxing today.

Mostly, they just ignore fractured titles before about 1960; ages ago they got lucky & hit upon the idea of "lineal" championships as being the time-hallowed thing to follow, but they wouldn't have had to dream that up if boxing wasn't brimming with bullshit & had been since it was invented.

PS: I've got no idea why the title was fractured at the point of the Arizmendi vs Armstrong fight, but now I've pulled my finger out my arse & checked Boxrec confirms that in fact it was. As to the specific bullshit political manipulations that led to that state of affairs... Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
Datsue
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Re: His Greatest Hour?

Post by Datsue »

Vide the wall of text above: Terry Downes. Middleweight champion of... New York & Massachusetts. & possibly Europe.
orbtastic
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Re: His Greatest Hour?

Post by orbtastic »

I could be wrong here, but seem to recall that at the time Woodcock and Mills were drawing big crowds at White City etc, their promoter tried to get the BBBoC to sanction a world title fight, distinct from the old NYSAC and NBA "world" titles.
No Tomorrow
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Re: His Greatest Hour?

Post by No Tomorrow »

@datsue

When the hell did Ezzard ever KO Louis?
Datsue
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Re: His Greatest Hour?

Post by Datsue »

No Tomorrow wrote:@datsue

When the hell did Ezzard ever KO Louis?
D'oh. Of course he didn't. Sorry, huge mistake there. Well caught. Fvck knows what I was thinking of.

I probably meant to write "beat the comebacking etc etc".

Sorry.

Ahem.

Does anyone wanna continue the game? Sorry for thread derailment & obviously huge mistake.

I think we got to Daniel Zaragoza...?
orbtastic
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Re: His Greatest Hour?

Post by orbtastic »

Best name is probably Zarate but he was far removed from his prime.

He's got some good wins on his record - Banke, McCullough, Sanchez, possibly Tatsuyoshi.

I'd say Sanchez was the most skilled out of those, so I'd go with him.

Luisito Espinoza.
palooka
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Re: His Greatest Hour?

Post by palooka »

Kennedy McKinney was a good win, Medina was a good fighter beaten twice.

I remember Luisito -very good left hook.

From the same era; Jesus Salud please?
misterpunch
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Re: His Greatest Hour?

Post by misterpunch »

why would that happen? very strange - oops Zaragoza is not my man...someone else post :TU:[/quote]


I think it's 'cos, despite what our fathers told us, it was actually common that a lot of titles back then weren't actually "undisputed". Most were, but some splintered like motherfuckers & it's basically been hushed up. Yet the same people who are happy not noting that technically Lee Savold was recognised by someone as heavyweight champion will often be the first to throw up their hands & go "Eeewwwww modern boxing fractured titles waaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!"

When Freddie Mills KO'd Len Harvey, for instance, for the British & Commonwealth light-heavy titles, Harvey apparently had some bullshit claim for the "world" title, but after winning Mills never mentioned it (probably felt embarrassed). Fred Apostoli & Freddie Steele were both middleweight champion back in the 1930s, & in fact the middleweight championship was split for ten years from 1930 to 1940.

Ezzard Charles wasn't undisputed champion until he KO'd the comebacking Joe Louis.

Old-timers & boxing "historians" just gloss over it, though, in an attempt to bolster the prelapsarian Golden Age of boxing myth & make them feel better about wringing their hands over the state of boxing today.

Mostly, they just ignore fractured titles before about 1960; ages ago they got lucky & hit upon the idea of "lineal" championships as being the time-hallowed thing to follow, but they wouldn't have had to dream that up if boxing wasn't brimming with bullshit & had been since it was invented.

PS: I've got no idea why the title was fractured at the point of the Arizmendi vs Armstrong fight, but now I've pulled my finger out my arse & checked Boxrec confirms that in fact it was. As to the specific bullshit political manipulations that led to that state of affairs... Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.[/quote]

thanks for that - it makes sense from what we really know about boxing chicanery :TU:
misterpunch
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Re: His Greatest Hour?

Post by misterpunch »

jesus salud has gone too far off my personal radar - I don't think it'll be the Estrada bout! - lets keep this going :TU:
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Re: His Greatest Hour?

Post by Tomasino »

Jesus Salud is a hard one for me as I've not seen his fights. What do you think was his finest hour Palooka?
palooka
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Re: His Greatest Hour?

Post by palooka »

Probably Estrada though Poll was a good fighter and he derailed Rudy Zavala who had looked class. Salud could fight, Tom.

Over to you :TU:
misterpunch
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Re: His Greatest Hour?

Post by misterpunch »

re-think - if you're my age you might have had your drink poured in the Neutral on Eighth Avenue by - Tony Janiro
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Re: His Greatest Hour?

Post by Tomasino »

Pernell Whitaker?
No Tomorrow
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Re: His Greatest Hour?

Post by No Tomorrow »

I'll go UD Greg Haugen. Not his biggest win, but Haugen was a highly rated LW and Pernell just dominated him

Shoji Oguma
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Re: His Greatest Hour?

Post by Tomasino »

Betulio Gonzalez


Bennie Briscoe
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Re: His Greatest Hour?

Post by gilgamesh »

Tomasino wrote:Betulio Gonzalez


Bennie Briscoe
With Briscoe it's probably fighting Monzon to a draw in Monte Carlo. He may well have gotten the decision anywhere else.

Leonard Dorin
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Re: His Greatest Hour?

Post by Tomasino »

gilgamesh wrote:
Tomasino wrote:Betulio Gonzalez


Bennie Briscoe
With Briscoe it's probably fighting Monzon to a draw in Monte Carlo. He may well have gotten the decision anywhere else.

Leonard Dorin

I've only seen him fight twice, Gatti and Spadafora. So I'm going with the Paul Spadafora draw.

Vitali Klitschko
gilgamesh
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Re: His Greatest Hour?

Post by gilgamesh »

Tomasino wrote:
I've only seen him fight twice, Gatti and Spadafora. So I'm going with the Paul Spadafora draw.

Vitali Klitschko
I'd probably have to say the Lennox Lewis loss was still Vitali's greatest hour because that's what made his career, and really put him on the map as a force at Heavyweight.

If you wanted it to be a win then I think it would be either Corrie Sanders or Samuel Peter.
No Tomorrow
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Re: His Greatest Hour?

Post by No Tomorrow »

gil you gotta list some one
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Re: His Greatest Hour?

Post by gilgamesh »

No Tomorrow wrote:gil you gotta list some one
Oh yeah, my bad...umm

Humberto "Chiquita" Gonzalez
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Re: His Greatest Hour?

Post by Tomasino »

gilgamesh wrote:
No Tomorrow wrote:gil you gotta list some one
Oh yeah, my bad...umm

Humberto "Chiquita" Gonzalez

His win against the Korean Hawk, Jung Koo Chang


Jim Watt
Datsue
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Re: His Greatest Hour?

Post by Datsue »

Gotta be Howard Davis Jr, hasn't it? I know it's one that's always wheeled out, but I never thought much of Sean O'Grady.

Tracy Harris Patterson?
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Re: His Greatest Hour?

Post by orbtastic »

Gotta be Zaragoza.

Kevin Kelly
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Re: His Greatest Hour?

Post by Tomasino »

Jesus Salud


Khaosai Galaxy
Datsue
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Re: His Greatest Hour?

Post by Datsue »

Israel Contreras. Probably not in terms of magnitude at the time, but he's the only Galaxy opponent I can think of off the top of my head who ever did anything else afterwards (though I think David Griman might've once held the WBA flyweight belt. But he was a novice when Galaxy beat him. & kinda shite).

Hm. I seem to remember Elly Pical was given his belt back or something as well, come to think of it. But I never liked Pical. So Contreras.

Howsabout...

Terry Norris?
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