How great was Jimmy Wilde?

Ambling Alp II · Post by **Ambling Alp II** » 23 Apr 2014, 13:34

Jimmy Wilde has been more than any other great fighter, the one I have had the the most trouble rating.

How good was he? Top 10, 50, 100 All-Time?
Was he the # 1 flyweight, top 5, top 10?

To me, his biggest wins were over bantamweights Pete Herman and Memphis Pal Moore. Also beat top flyweights of his day such as Tancy Lee, Joe Symonds,and Sid Smith.

This is a guy who routinely gets listed as the best flyweight, and one of the best by some, but I know other people don't regard him that highly.

We have not discussed flyweight much, or fighters from a long time ago much lately.
Lets have a good discussion of how good he was and why.

gilgamesh · Post by **gilgamesh** » 23 Apr 2014, 14:06

I don't know for sure how great he was, but he has one of the coolest nicknames in the sports history. "The Ghost with a Hammer in his Hand"

Gene Tunney called him The Best fighter he ever saw, and Tunney was a man who shared the ring with Harry Greb.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 23 Apr 2014, 17:50

To me, the great Jimmy Wilde was the greatest fighter of the 1910s decade without a doubt. He is a borderline top 10 atg in my view. And the greatest flyweight of all time. Wales got a true ATG.

SaadOffTheDeck · Post by **SaadOffTheDeck** » 23 Apr 2014, 18:15

Historically overrated to me, perhaps that is due to my lack of knowledge of the fighters in his weight class at the time. Top 10?

klompton · Post by **klompton** » 23 Apr 2014, 22:29

Ive been keeping off this forum for obvious reasons but I had to post when I saw this:

I used to think Wilde was overrated. I recently got a lot of good stuff on him and I now think the guy was phenomenal and underrated. He made what he did look so easy but thats because his timing, judgement of distance, and accuracy was so on point. I think his power is overrated (but even that is hard to guage since hes always fighting guys bigger than him) but wow what a great fighter. One of the best plain and simple. Im not really sure where to rate him in list or anything but he certainly has to be way up there not only in his division but in a pound for pound since given his lack of size and the longevity he had. Cant say enough about him.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 24 Apr 2014, 04:31

He was beating world class bantamweights whilst weighing in as a minimumweight. And he was often knocking them out.

I agree he's hard to rate. You can almost rate him anywhere and come up with a decent argument as to why.

orbtastic · Post by **orbtastic** » 24 Apr 2014, 06:57

klompton wrote:Ive been keeping off this forum for obvious reasons but I had to post when I saw this:

I used to think Wilde was overrated. I recently got a lot of good stuff on him and I now think the guy was phenomenal and underrated. He made what he did look so easy but thats because his timing, judgement of distance, and accuracy was so on point. I think his power is overrated (but even that is hard to guage since hes always fighting guys bigger than him) but wow what a great fighter. One of the best plain and simple. Im not really sure where to rate him in list or anything but he certainly has to be way up there not only in his division but in a pound for pound since given his lack of size and the longevity he had. Cant say enough about him.

I've a few of his fights.

I don't understand why he's rated so highly based on the fight footage, or his wins.

SaadOffTheDeck · Post by **SaadOffTheDeck** » 24 Apr 2014, 08:47

Ezzard wrote:He was beating world class bantamweights whilst weighing in as a minimumweight. And he was often knocking them out.

What world class Bantamweights did he knock out? That's part of the Wilde story that I don't get.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 24 Apr 2014, 14:02

The great Jimmy Wilde highlights

* Undefeated in first 97 bouts.
* Won 47 in a row from March 1913 to Dec 1914
* Won 32 in a row from March 1915 to July 1919
* Was Wales, British, Europe and World Flyweight Champion
* Made first 8 successful title defenses. All by KO
* Won 132 fights out of 141. Stopped 103 opponents. And officially, lost only 3 times!

* Among his best wins:
WKO12 Joe Conn...Conn outweight him by 20lbs. He had a respectable record of 55-15-5 when he fought Wilde on August 31, 1918.

Beat Jack Dyer (KO3) who outweight Wilde by 10 pounds on Aug 28, 1913

Beat two time world bantam king Joe Lynch who outweight him 14 pounds when they meton March 31, 1919 by decision in 15 rounds

Beat Young Zulu Kid more than once.

Tancy Lee in the rematch that Wilde avenged. It was his finest hour.

Beat Sam Keller that outweight Wilde by 8 and a half pounds

Beat Sid Smith by KO3 who outweight Wilde by 13 pounds on March 27, 1916

Beat Joe Sydmonds by W12 (who outweight him by 10 pounds at least), on Feb 14, 1916

Beat bantamweight contender Memphis Pal Moore by decision that outweighted Wilde by at least 8 pounds on July 17, 1919. Moore beat ATG Pete "Kid" Herman and future feather champ Eugene Criqui and drew with ATG Jimmy McLarnin.

Beat Tommy Harrison by KO in 8 who outweighted Wilde by 10lbs on May 29, 1916.

*Lost last 2 fights when he was over the hill.

Conclusion: No doubt about it. This guy is an ATG. A borderline top 10 ATG in my view.

bodyblow999 · Post by **bodyblow999** » 24 Apr 2014, 15:08

Dont forget Joe Lynch, world class bantamweight and future champion.

orbtastic · Post by **orbtastic** » 25 Apr 2014, 06:18

Those 1916 fights are both exhibition bouts, no?

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 25 Apr 2014, 13:43

orbtastic wrote:Those 1916 fights are both exhibition bouts, no?

No, they were not.

orbtastic · Post by **orbtastic** » 26 Apr 2014, 05:55

My mistake, I was sure he'd fought a number of exhibition bouts during the war, they must have been later.

Ambling Alp II · Post by **Ambling Alp II** » 30 Apr 2014, 11:15

Regarding the fights mentioned:
Yes he beat Jack Dyer. Dyer had one fight before this.
Yes he beat Young Zulu Kid. So did most of Young Zulu Kid's opponents.
Yes he beat Sam Keller who was a bantamweight. But Keller was a pretty ordinary bantamweight.

On the other hand, he did have some nice wins:
Joe Lynch was a very good bantamweight, and later won the bantamweight tile. Wilde beat him despite giving up 14 pounds. You could argue that Lynch had not quite reached his prime, but that is still a very good win.

Memphis Pal Moore was a very good bantamweight, and Wilde beat him despite giving up 8 pounds. This may have been Wilde's best win.

Sid Smith was a good fighter, and Wilde beat him despite giving up 13 pounds.
Joe Conn was a decent featherweight, and Wilde beat him, giving up 20 pounds.
He beat Joe Symond, despite giving up 10 pounds. (However, Symond was technically still in Wilde's weight class.)

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 30 Apr 2014, 11:23

LetAlso according to the Ring editor Williamd Detloff, he was one of the best 20 fighters of the 20th cientury. Let's not forget that he was one of boxing's all time greatest punchers according to The Ring Magazine.

"The Mighty Atom" was a true all time great.

King Carlos · Post by **King Carlos** » 30 Apr 2014, 12:39

Never seen or read anything to suggest he was anywhere near as good as his reputation suggests.

palooka · Post by **palooka** » 02 May 2014, 15:03

King Carlos wrote:Never seen or read anything to suggest he was anywhere near as good as his reputation suggests.

I've got the biography 'Fighting Was My Business' - Wilde was some fighter all right.

Crease · Post by **Crease** » 02 May 2014, 17:26

How great was Jimmy Wilde?

The answer: Very, Very, VERY Great

As a matter of fact, as I think about it - I have never seen him ranked outside the all-time top 15 in anyone's list. Of course, that's subjective and perhaps irrelevant as everyone has their own lists.

gilgamesh · Post by **gilgamesh** » 02 May 2014, 17:29

Crease wrote:How great was Jimmy Wilde?

The answer: Very, Very, VERY Great

As a matter of fact, as I think about it - I have never seen him ranked outside the all-time top 15 in anyone's list. Of course, that's subjective and perhaps irrelevant as everyone has their own lists.

Ring Magazine had him ranked #3 on the list of "100 Greatest Punchers of All Time"

His record is pretty staggering to look at too. I'm sure it's different on Boxrec than in The Ring, it always is with the old timers it seems, but it's something like 131-3 with 99 KO's.

And though he often weighed less than 100 pounds, he even knocked out Bantamweight greats like Pete Herman....who by the way is doing pretty damn well in the Sim at the moment

SaadOffTheDeck · Post by **SaadOffTheDeck** » 02 May 2014, 18:24

gilgamesh wrote:
Crease wrote:How great was Jimmy Wilde?

The answer: Very, Very, VERY Great

As a matter of fact, as I think about it - I have never seen him ranked outside the all-time top 15 in anyone's list. Of course, that's subjective and perhaps irrelevant as everyone has their own lists.

And though he often weighed less than 100 pounds, he even knocked out Bantamweight greats like Pete Herman....who by the way is doing pretty damn well in the Sim at the moment

Herman stopped Wilde.

Ambling Alp II · Post by **Ambling Alp II** » 03 May 2014, 15:54

That is one thing that that has always puzzled me about Wilde; why do so often people say he did something that he didn't?

He does have some very nice wins and hardly any negatives. He was great. I guess what I am trying to get a handle on is how great? And why?
People saying that he is ranked highly and that Ring Magazine thought he was awesome and so on. To me that isn't evidence.

Other people downgrade him, but don't really say why either.

gilgamesh · Post by **gilgamesh** » 03 May 2014, 16:11

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
gilgamesh wrote:
Crease wrote:How great was Jimmy Wilde?

The answer: Very, Very, VERY Great

As a matter of fact, as I think about it - I have never seen him ranked outside the all-time top 15 in anyone's list. Of course, that's subjective and perhaps irrelevant as everyone has their own lists.

And though he often weighed less than 100 pounds, he even knocked out Bantamweight greats like Pete Herman....who by the way is doing pretty damn well in the Sim at the moment
Herman stopped Wilde.

My bad on that one.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 04 May 2014, 02:27

Wilde, as I said before, beat two-time bantam king Joe Lynch. Did Lynch beat Pete Herman? I will look it up

Senya13 · Post by **Senya13** » 04 May 2014, 15:54

The decision in the 15-round bout between Wilde and Lynch was a very controversial one. Many English writers disagreed with it. Frank Morley, a veteran English sporting scribe, thought Wilde won only two rounds (1 and 9). In an interview to 'The News of the World' Jim Driscoll (he seconded Wilde in this bout), in explaining why he thought Lynch justly was given the decision started with an excuse: "Well, I think it was a good decision, though in saying this I know I am up against the majority of press critics, and also very likely a lot of my fellow professionals." Wilde started as a 5-to-2 or 3-to-1 favorite (even 4-to-1 was mentioned in London Times), but by the 9th round the betting was at evens, and most agreed that Lynch finished the stronger and fresher of the two. Among those who disagreed with the verdict were the writers for The Mail, Daily Dispatch, B. Bennison of Daily Telegraph, Edward Wood of Daily Sketch, Frank Morley, R. H. Carlisle, London correspondent of New York Herald. Sporting Life attributed the defeat to Lynch's holding for which he was warned repeatedly, because of which "Lynch had just about got there". The Sportsman thought Wilde won by very narrow margin. Daily Express reported that "Wilde won simply because he refused to admit defeat". The Times gave decision to Wilde mostly because he forced the fight.

SaadOffTheDeck · Post by **SaadOffTheDeck** » 04 May 2014, 15:58

Ambling Alp II wrote:That is one thing that that has always puzzled me about Wilde; why do so often people say he did something that he didn't?

He does have some very nice wins and hardly any negatives. He was great. I guess what I am trying to get a handle on is how great? And why?
People saying that he is ranked highly and that Ring Magazine thought he was awesome and so on. To me that isn't evidence.

Other people downgrade him, but don't really say why either.

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me about the numerous world class Bantamweights he knocked out. For me, I admittedly am not overly familiar with a lot of his opposition. That could be a lack of knowledge of the weight classes in that era or his ledger is weaker than people like to say. I'm guessing it's a combination of both.