British Top 30 P4P May 2014

[palooka]

I'd agree with that Murray ought to be at the same level as Macklin and a fight between those 2 would be very edgy, they are very close in ability and power. If Murray faced Golovkin he'd be beaten the same.

What do you mean by "Murray ought to be at the same level as Macklin"?

I'd say he was nearer to Matthews level and he's ranked 17. Macklin had good results and showings at high level but they aren't rewarded by a high ranking. If Murray were to box Golovkin he'd get ruined the same.

[palooka]

Then who's Murray beaten (or Afolabi) to be rated so high? Not draws or contentious losses, wins.

Look it up.

He's ranked 2 because he beat Jorge Navarro for the interim title?

There's no other wins there to put him anywhere near as high.

[palooka]

See this is where things get muddled up. You're going more on CV and achievements. I'm going on the basic concept of if all fighters were the same weight naturally, who would beat who? Achievements/CVs help predict if Fighter A beats Fighter B at Middleweight for example. However things get more complicated when bringing differing weights into the equation. For example Afolabi is 9 years older than Quigg and in arguably in easier division so of course he's mixed at top level more. Regardless of Afolabi mixing it at the top, I'd still pick Quigg to beat him if they were naturally the same weight, hence I'd put Quigg above him in my rankings. It's just my take on it.

Achievements are more important than perceived ability in my opinion.

If a fighter is talented then they should prove it by beating good opponents.

From the horses mouth.

Macklin has better wins than Murray and is rated 15 places behind by you.

[Horse]

I'd say he was nearer to Matthews level and he's ranked 17. Macklin had good results and showings at high level but they aren't rewarded by a high ranking. If Murray were to box Golovkin he'd get ruined the same.

You're not saying Murray should be around 17th in the rankings are you?

Murray has done more in the last couple of years than Macklin has.

If Macklin beats Geale this month then he'll move a lot closer to Murray than he is now.

[Horse]

He's ranked 2 because he beat Jorge Navarro for the interim title?

There's no other wins there to put him anywhere near as high.

Jorge Navarro is not Murray's best official win.

Murray did very well against Sturm and Martinez and he deserves a high ranking.

[Horse]

From the horses mouth.

Macklin has better wins than Murray and is rated 15 places behind by you.

Murray has performed better at world level than Macklin has.

[palooka]

He's ranked 2 because he beat Jorge Navarro for the interim title?

There's no other wins there to put him anywhere near as high.

Jorge Navarro is not Murray's best official win.

Murray did very well against Sturm and Martinez and he deserves a high ranking.

Maklin did very well against Sturm and Martinez and also beat Alcine and Asikainen.

The Martinez that Murray did so well against was injury racked.

Who's Murrays best win?

[palooka]

If Macklin beats Geale he'll be closer to where Murray is?

If Macklin beats Geale he out to oust Murray from the number 2 spot; Geale lost his title to Barker on a split and is a very live opponent. Murray ought to have dropped a spot or 2 after his showing against Khomitsky - no matter how well you do in a big fight you're only as good as your last. (I realise Murray has boxed since then)

Murray ought to box Golovkin to give a measure of how much better he is than Macklin.

I'm not being off or disrespectful; I imagine it takes a lot of figuring out to come up with a list. I've also nothing against Murray or Afolabi; you post the P4P list and say comments are welcome.

[Boxerbeetle]

Yes I think I'd still say Murray was ranked too high. I didn't think he deserved the win against either Sturm or Martinez. He had a great opportunity against a rusty, injured Martinez but it was still Sergio who finished stronger & won the championship rounds.

In what way was Martinez rusty? He hadn't been inactive for a long period before their fight.

Don't get me wrong, Murray is definitely in the top 10 British P4P, but I'd place him around 6-7 rather than 2. Who's his best win over? I can't actually remember (off the top of my head) Murray having a win over a genuine world level opponent.

He beat Martinez and Sturm on my scorecards.

Why are so many people obsessed with the opinions of judges?

I didn't even mention the judges scorecards, I specifically said that I didn't think Murray beat either Sturm or Martinez. I just don't see how there's any justification at all to rate Murray as the no 2 P4P fighter in Britain, particularly if you're using those 2 fights as the basis of your decision.

[Horse]

Maklin did very well against Sturm and Martinez and also beat Alcine and Asikainen.

The Asikainen win was almost 5 years ago now.

Murray has done better in the last couple of years than Macklin has. Do you disagree with that?

The Martinez that Murray did so well against was injury racked.

Excuses, excuses.

Who's Murrays best win?

Unofficially: Sergio Martinez.

Officially: Nick Blackwell.

[Horse]

If Macklin beats Geale he'll be closer to where Murray is?

Yes.

If Macklin beats Geale he out to oust Murray from the number 2 spot; Geale lost his title to Barker on a split and is a very live opponent,

Geale is world class, it would be a very good win for Macklin.

Murray ought to box Golovkin to give a measure of how much better he is than Macklin.

That is the plan.

[Horse]

I just don't see how there's any justification at all to rate Murray as the no 2 P4P fighter in Britain, particularly if you're using those 2 fights as the basis of your decision.

Well, you are wrong.

[Horse]

Murray ought to have dropped a spot or 2 after his showing against Khomitsky - no matter how well you do in a big fight you're only as good as your last. (I realise Murray has boxed since then)

I don't drop fighters if they win, unless it is a robbery.

I'm not being off or disrespectful; I imagine it takes a lot of figuring out to come up with a list. I've also nothing against Murray or Afolabi; you post the P4P list and say comments are welcome.

Yes.

[palooka]

Since June 2011 Macklin has boxed; Sturm, Martinez, Alcine, Golovkin and Lamar Russ.

Since June 2011 Murray has boxed; Blackwell (8 fights), Sturm, Achour (13/2/2), Navarro (12/0), Martinez, Khomotsky, Tetteh.

That's the last few years, if you feel Murray has faced the better opposition and performed better then OK, but by 15 places - Murray ranked 2nd and Macklin ranked 17th?

Murray did well against Martinez and he maybe has the style to do that - he didn't win, he did better than people thought he would away from home. He looked shocking v Khomotsky and Macklin faced the best middle in Golovkin and is facing another excellent one in Geale next. Macklin operates at top level - Tetteh is 2nd division.

[palooka]

Murray ought to have dropped a spot or 2 after his showing against Khomitsky - no matter how well you do in a big fight you're only as good as your last. (I realise Murray has boxed since then)

I don't drop fighters if they win, unless it is a robbery.

I'm not being off or disrespectful; I imagine it takes a lot of figuring out to come up with a list. I've also nothing against Murray or Afolabi; you post the P4P list and say comments are welcome.

Yes.

If a highly rated boxer looks shocking and to have receded then they ought to dropped down the rankings.

I don't get the impression that you enjoy or welcome any sort of dialogue about your rankings; you seem brittle, dismissive and aloof.

[Boxerbeetle]

I just don't see how there's any justification at all to rate Murray as the no 2 P4P fighter in Britain, particularly if you're using those 2 fights as the basis of your decision.

Well, you are wrong.

The general consensus seems to suggest that you are wrong. You haven't made a single convincing argument to back up your ridiculously high ranking of Murray.

[Horse]

Since June 2011 Macklin has boxed; Sturm, Martinez, Alcine, Golovkin and Lamar Russ.

Since June 2011 Murray has boxed; Blackwell (8 fights), Sturm, Achour (13/2/2), Navarro (12/0), Martinez, Khomotsky, Tetteh.

That's the last few years, if you feel Murray has faced the better opposition and performed better then OK, but by 15 places - Murray ranked 2nd and Macklin ranked 17th?

Fighters fall faster the lower down the rankings they are. Macklin was 13th three months ago, but he's getting overtaken by more active fighters.

If Murray doesn't do anything decent in the next year then he'll be in a similar position to Macklin.

Murray did well against Martinez and he maybe has the style to do that - he didn't win, he did better than people thought he would away from home. He looked shocking v Khomotsky and Macklin faced the best middle in Golovkin and is facing another excellent one in Geale next. Macklin operates at top level - Tetteh is 2nd division.

Golovkin has not proven that he is the best middleweight in the world. His best win is against Macklin.

[Horse]

If a highly rated boxer looks shocking and to have receded then they ought to dropped down the rankings.

I don't get the impression that you enjoy or welcome any sort of dialogue about your rankings; you seem brittle, dismissive and aloof.

Am I not being friendly enough?

[Horse]

The general consensus seems to suggest that you are wrong. You haven't made a single convincing argument to back up your ridiculously high ranking of Murray.

"I just don't see how there's any justification at all to rate Murray as the no 2 P4P fighter in Britain, particularly if you're using those 2 fights as the basis of your decision." If you really believe that then you are simply wrong and not worth arguing with.

[palooka]

Golovkin is by far the most active highly ranked middle in the world and is on a real run of impressive wins, he is ranked 1st by BoxRec with 833 points; Martinez is no longer active enough to be regarded as an active fighter.

I don't know anything about 'friendly' though you do seem dismissive. I understand you put a lot of thought into your ratings and I don't think that every single one stands up to scrutiny - that's not me trying to score points. Murray has had a very high rating based really on the Martinez bout - which he lost and he pulled out of a Golovkin bout. If his best official win is against Nick Blackwell who was 8 fights unbeaten going in then he has a lack of good quality wins.

Murray is an excellent boxer and on his day will cause a lot of problems for anyone -he's not the 2nd best fighter in Britain though and is not 15 places above Macklin.

[Horse]

Golovkin is by far the most active highly ranked middle in the world and is on a real run of impressive wins, he is ranked 1st by BoxRec with 833 points; Martinez is no longer active enough to be regarded as an active fighter.

Golovkin has hardly fought anyone decent.

Rosado, Ishida, Macklin, Stevens & Adama. That's not an impressive run for a world level fighter.

I don't know anything about 'friendly' though you do seem dismissive. I understand you put a lot of thought into your ratings and I don't think that every single one stands up to scrutiny - that's not me trying to score points. Murray has had a very high rating based really on the Martinez bout - which he lost and he pulled out of a Golovkin bout.

Murray didn't pull out of a fight with Golovkin.

Murray is an excellent boxer and on his day will cause a lot of problems for anyone -he's not the 2nd best fighter in Britain though and is not 15 places above Macklin.

In your opinion.

[palooka]

There's just no point is there? i didn't imagine you'd alter the rankings and you won't concede that someone has even half a point.

[Boxerbeetle]

There's just no point is there? i didn't imagine you'd alter the rankings and you won't concede that someone has even half a point.

I've already given up arguing with him mate, waste of time.

[Horse]

There's just no point is there?

There's no point in trying to convince me that Murray's performances against Martinez and Sturm are worthless because he wasn't given the official wins. I have absolutely no respect for that opinion at all.

i didn't imagine you'd alter the rankings and you won't concede that someone has even half a point.

Sometimes people do have a good point and I will admit that.

I'm not going to pretend I'm wrong when I'm not though. Murray doesn't get anywhere near the respect that he deserves.

[palooka]

Macklin did really well against Sturm and nearly got it; Macklin also gave Martinez a bit of a mauling until coming unstuck - it wasn't worlds away on the cards from the Murray fight.

Martin would get more respect if he boxed at a high level consistently - he did well v Martinez then boxed who, who and who? He hasn't capitalised on a good showing and he didn't ought to rewarded for a good showing for 2 or 3 years. Macklin boxed Sturm, Martinez, Golovkin and is in next with Geale. The only one (yet) to wreck him was Golovkin and like it or not, there aren't many other top middles want to take Golovkin on. Murrays next bout is Max Bursak. It's not ambitious and it's not a good career trajectory.

I'd think a bout between Murray and Macklin would be pretty tight and if an armchair viewer were told that one man was rated 2nd and the other 17th they'd be surprised at how well matched they were.