Can you make a solid case

[Michael bennt]

For the 185 pound Marciano and Dempsey beating super heavyweights Bowe, Lewis, Wladmir and Vitali?

[Ambling Alp II]

Yes. Don't really feel like getting into the Klitschkos for the umpteenth time; their glaring weaknesses have been mentioned many times before.

I think Dempsey would have a better chance against Lewis and Bowe than Marciano. The bigger the opponent, the more effective Dempsey seemed to be.

Both Dempsey and Marciano were extremely aggressive and could really give Bowe and Lewis a difficult time with the sheer amount of punches that they threw.

Almost anything could happen in a fight with Dempsey or Marciano vs Bowe or Lewis.

[Othro]

I respectfully disagree . They were great for their time but Dempsey throwing caution to the wind vs Bowe or Lewis would put himself to sleep.

[Bobbyptsd]

I'm not sure I'm entirely convinced about the K brothers, though I would lean toward them just on size and being better than people give them credit for.

But I'm sure on Bowe and Lewis, no.

[drunkenpiper36]

The answer is "yes". A case can be made. But its probably not something I'd favor either of them to do. Neither man was ever really tested against a super heavyweight of THAT caliber. Dempsey defeated a very large man in Jess Willard while Marciano defeated Johnny Shkor. But those men didn't have the all around package of size, skill, conditioning, and other attributes that make a quality big man. Furthermore, in Dempsey's case, he fought Jess Willard when he was 37 years of age and off for three years. And Johnny Shkor, while being a fairly large man, was more of a journeyman level fighter.

[Ambling Alp II]

Dempsey not only destroyed Willard, but the other top big fighters of his era.

vs Firpo KO2
vs Morris KO1
vs Fulton KO1

We also need to look at it from another angle:
How would Lewis and Bowe adapt?
They never fought anyone like Dempsey (or Marciano for that matter.)
They never fought anyone with anywhere near that volume of punching. Those two were constant aggression.
Yes Bowe and Lewis would have height and reach advantages. They would not have power advantages. They also would be at a severe disadvantage in speed with Demspey.

Almost anything could have happened in these fights.

[drunkenpiper36]

Dempsey not only destroyed Willard, but the other top big fighters of his era.

vs Firpo KO2
vs Morris KO1
vs Fulton KO1

We also need to look at it from another angle:
How would Lewis and Bowe adapt?
They never fought anyone like Dempsey (or Marciano for that matter.)
They never fought anyone with anywhere near that volume of punching. Those two were constant aggression.
Yes Bowe and Lewis would have height and reach advantages. They would not have power advantages. They also would be at a severe disadvantage in speed with Demspey.

Almost anything could have happened in these fights.

I don't think Firpo, Morris or Fulton can be accurately or equitably compared to Lewis, Bowe or either Klitschko. Wladimir beat some smaller quick moving boxers in Byrd, Chambers and a few others, but probably none with Dempsey's power. I can't see Marciano at 185 being able to bully those bigger men especially considering that his style relied largely on volume punching and wearing his men down through attrition. That takes a taxing amount of energy and hard work against a bigger man, let alone a super heavyweight of ATG or bordering ATG status. Even if you rate Rocky top five ( which I do ) and don't even have Vitali in your top 200, the dynamics of the match up just don't bode well for him.

[Tuan_Jim]

Tua was only ever a whisker away from Lewis's chin with his whipping hooks, and was hindered by his appalling physical condition. Certainly Lewis felt the need to box the 'small man' with a respect and fear that makes a mockery of fans who believe big men will simply run right through little men. In fact Frank Maloney is on record as saying Lewis was extremely intimidated by Tua.

That's not a criticism of Lewis in the slightest. A little bloke with fast hands and serious clout in his fists is potentially deadly against a chin that's high in the air. Watching Lewis's exaggerated caution versus fatties like Tua and Tyson I do wonder how well he'd cope with a strong, light, athletic puncher dipping under his jab and attacking him. It's a very reasonable concern.

Bowe, we know he's coming at you and you won't have to go looking for him. That's a potential red flag right there.

They're ultimately very hard fights to predict but for me personally it would be insane to write off born hitters like Dempsey and Marciano, particularly for them stepping into the ring all power without an ounce of fat on them. The Klitschos I won't bother to discuss, I don't rate them very highly.

[palooka]

I respectfully disagree . They were great for their time but Dempsey throwing caution to the wind vs Bowe or Lewis would put himself to sleep.

It depends if he could wear the gloves he did v Willard he'd put Oliver McCall to sleep.

[HomicideHenry]

For Dempsey, yes.

For Marciano, I can only speculate.

Why am I so certain of Dempsey's success, and not Marciano's against men such as these?

While I do believe Marciano capable of doing so--- Dempsey had more than enough proof in his life time, that he was more than capable of dealing with men much taller, much heavier, much stronger than himself. In fact, it seemed the bigger they were the easier it was for Jack Dempsey.

Carl Morris (6'4" 240 pounds), Fred Fulton (6'5" 250 pounds), Arthur Pelkey, Gunboat Smith, Jess Willard (6'6" 245 pounds), were all heads and shoulders taller than Dempsey and often times out weighed him by more than fifty pounds--- Dempsey, for instance was 187 pounds when he fought Willard in Toledo, Ohio. Even later in his career as champion, while he seemed more comfortable doing movie serials and bedding Hollywood starlets than defending the title--- once fought 7'2" 280 pound Ben Wray in an exhibition, and Wray was an 'up and coming' prospect allegedly 4-0-0 (4). Dempsey broke the giant's jaw, rendering him unconscious for several minutes, and it took less than 60 seconds for him to do so. Wray never fought again.

I know the pundits and true believers in the philosophy that 'bigger is better' and that 'athletes get better over time', will discredit this by saying Lennox Lewis and others were far superior in ability, agility, skills, etc. than the likes of which Dempsey fought--- however, often times, these big men of today have disappointed even the most hardcore fanatic to their cause. Lewis, lose to the unheralded Hasim Rahman and Oliver McCall--- the Klitschko's lost to Lamon Brewster, Chris Byrd, Corrie Sanders, and Ross Purrity. Of course--- Bowe also went life and death three times with Evander Holyfield, a man who was essentially a blown up light heavyweight (albeit one of the all-time greats). Holyfield, great as he was, determined as he was--- even when passed his best, gave Lewis two competitive fights, and even in old age danced circles and was robbed against 7'0" 328 pound Nicolai Valuev.

If Holyfield, could do it. Then in my mind at least, well conditioned, determined, fighters like Marciano and Dempsey and Louis could have done it as well.

[cfang]

I like your post Henry and I kind of agree but some of the sizes are a bit ott. Gunboat Smith was lt heavy who fought around 170-180 and Threres no way Fulton weighed 250 lbs. He was just over 6 ft 4 and weighed about 220-225. He was pretty slim for a heavy and the pictures of him show this.

Either way Fulton and Morris can't be compared to Lennox Lewis, Riddick Bowe etc. They were quite large but not in the same class. I don't think it proves a lot that Dempsey could ko some big heavy is 1919, it's more whether he could ko a vastly larger man who also happens to a world heavy champ of their era. I'd like to think he could but in all honesty, I think it'd be far too much for him.

[Broomhall]

I think for me I would look at how smallish heavyweight Mike Tyson ripped through the big heavyweights when he was on fire.For that 2/3 year period he was unbeatable. It would be fair to say with modern training methods that Marciano and Dempsey could "bulk" up a little and so yes with speed and ferocity they had you could make a case for Dempsey and Marciano to compete with the bigger men.

[Tuan_Jim]

Or rather than Dempsey and Marciano 'bulking up' perhaps the modern heavyweights would need to slim down.

[HomicideHenry]

Or rather than Dempsey and Marciano 'bulking up' perhaps the modern heavyweights would need to slim down.

I'm along the lines of this mindset.

Back in the day, if you were the welterweight champ, you fought at 147 pounds. There was no way of getting around this. Today, if you're the welterweight champion, you show up 147 pounds at the scales and then the next day are 165 pounds and ready to fight. Too many changes between now and yesterday--- its a shame, because for all the bluff and buster about skills improving, etc. all thats really changed is that fighters have lost discipline, stamina, and all around skills, because they reply so much on offense and size.

It isnt just boxing, but in all manner of sports. Compare an NBA basketball game today, with the games from the 1970's and 1960's--- it's two complete different mindsets and strategies. The players today are bigger, and force their way to the hoop every time--- all about getting into the paint--- rather than use methodology. You know it's a damn shame, when commentators will go absoloutely NUTS whenever someone does a standard "finger roll" and call it old school, when back in the day that was basketball 101. Much like boxing memes, where they make fun of Mayweather's shoulder roll technique, saying "Didn't we learn that in the amateurs?"--- I'd suspect a man like Larry Byrd, would probably dominate the sport far greater in today's game, than he did in his own time, because nobody would be able to do anything with a guy who mentally was two-three places ahead of you and could sink three's and half courts like nobodies business. The same logic, goes with boxing also.

If you have a heavyweight boxer, who tips the scales at 240--- when we all know damn well he could make 220--- that's all the knowledge you will ever need to know as to his mentality, commitment, drive, and discipline in the sport. Despite their diminuitive sizes, even in their own time, Dempsey and Marciano and Holyfield could not be out punched, out gunned, out hustled because they had the conditioning and went through hell in training camp. The main event, the real deal, fight night was a blessing in comparison to the rigors of the gym. Want to know why Klitschko is so dominate? A good deal of that reason is because regardless of opposition--- good, decent, bad, inbetween--- the man is always in great shape. He's a mountain of muscle, and is lean.

For me personally, if Marciano and Dempsey and Holyfield or even Tyson bulked up in size to face off against the guys of today--- it would of robbed them of true, real deal, conditioning that made them so great. It would of robbed them of the speed, mobility, and fluidity that they demonstrated in the ring. It would of made them sitting ducks for the big men to pick apart. No--- Marciano's best was at 187 pounds. As was Dempsey's prime weight. Holyfield was a beast at 195. Tyson was dominate at 210 pounds. Why be bigger? Why fix something that isn't broken? Why does everyone attribute size to meaning something grandiose and better?

Want to know greatness? Take a long look at such men as Sam Langford, Mickey Walker, Bob Fitzsimmons, and get back to me as to whether at the end of the day size means a damn in this business. Skills is skills. Size--- more so than not--- is a liability in combat sports. Not an advantage. The taller they are, the more likely they are to bend down when throwing punches, leaving the chin exposed. The taller they are, the greater their loss of balance is--- especially the real leggy ones. The heavier they are, the slower they are. The heavier they are, the more energy they have to use up in order to maintain their advantage. Think about it--- with the exception of our current and present era, was there ever a time in the sports history (since the 17th century) were tall, heavy, (giant) heavyweights ever successful or considered anything more than a novelty of one sort or another?

Outside of Willard--- who only got his shot cus McCarty died--- and Primo Carnera, who managed to land a perfect uppercut on the chin of Sharkey who was pushed into the ropes by a man who outweighed him by eighty pounds--- was there ever a large heavyweight, who was considered anything more than a freak show, or bonafide contender? And even the before mentioned men that I just listed, campaigned for the majority of their careers exactly in that mold.

Big men, are big targets. Plain and simple.

[dempseyfire]

Dempsey not only destroyed Willard, but the other top big fighters of his era.

vs Firpo KO2
vs Morris KO1
vs Fulton KO1

We also need to look at it from another angle:
How would Lewis and Bowe adapt?
They never fought anyone like Dempsey (or Marciano for that matter.)
They never fought anyone with anywhere near that volume of punching. Those two were constant aggression.
Yes Bowe and Lewis would have height and reach advantages. They would not have power advantages. They also would be at a severe disadvantage in speed with Demspey.

Almost anything could have happened in these fights.

I don't think Firpo, Morris or Fulton can be accurately or equitably compared to Lewis, Bowe or either Klitschko. Wladimir beat some smaller quick moving boxers in Byrd, Chambers and a few others, but probably none with Dempsey's power. I can't see Marciano at 185 being able to bully those bigger men especially considering that his style relied largely on volume punching and wearing his men down through attrition. That takes a taxing amount of energy and hard work against a bigger man, let alone a super heavyweight of ATG or bordering ATG status. Even if you rate Rocky top five ( which I do ) and don't even have Vitali in your top 200, the dynamics of the match up just don't bode well for him.

I'd easily rank Fulton ahead of Wlad. Basically a carbon copy of Klitschko except Fred actually defeated quality competition. A prime Willard would've knocked his a$$ out too . . .Willard had the chin and power of Wach, but unlike Wach actually had some athleticism and skills.

[Othro]

Dempsey not only destroyed Willard, but the other top big fighters of his era.

vs Firpo KO2
vs Morris KO1
vs Fulton KO1

We also need to look at it from another angle:
How would Lewis and Bowe adapt?
They never fought anyone like Dempsey (or Marciano for that matter.)
They never fought anyone with anywhere near that volume of punching. Those two were constant aggression.
Yes Bowe and Lewis would have height and reach advantages. They would not have power advantages. They also would be at a severe disadvantage in speed with Demspey.

Almost anything could have happened in these fights.

I don't think Firpo, Morris or Fulton can be accurately or equitably compared to Lewis, Bowe or either Klitschko. Wladimir beat some smaller quick moving boxers in Byrd, Chambers and a few others, but probably none with Dempsey's power. I can't see Marciano at 185 being able to bully those bigger men especially considering that his style relied largely on volume punching and wearing his men down through attrition. That takes a taxing amount of energy and hard work against a bigger man, let alone a super heavyweight of ATG or bordering ATG status. Even if you rate Rocky top five ( which I do ) and don't even have Vitali in your top 200, the dynamics of the match up just don't bode well for him.

I'd easily rank Fulton ahead of Wlad. Basically a carbon copy of Klitschko except Fred actually defeated quality competition. A prime Willard would've knocked his a$$ out too . . .Willard had the chin and power of Wach, but unlike Wach actually had some athleticism and skills.

Finally someone who knows what they're talking about

[crusader]

I think Marciano and Dempsey would've lost to all of them (definitely Vitali). With day before weigh-ins those two would have a good chance of making SMW, and I'm not remotely convinced that guys like Willard, Firpo, and Fulton were in the same league as Lewis, Bowe, or the Klitschkos. dempseyfire always goes on about how fighter of the past X was so much better than contemporary fighter Y, but whenever I see tape*I pretty much always disagree completely. In fact, I really don't see much to suggest that Dempsey was any more skilled than someone like Edwin Valero, and if someone disagrees perhaps they could tell me what Dempsey did that I can't find Valero doing.

Someone mentioned Tyson, but he was about 220 (bigger than the supposed super-heavyweight Fulton), not 185. I don't see small men like Marciano and Dempsey being able to bully and overpower Lewis, Bowe, or the Klitschkos as Tyson did to his opponents.

*If there is tape--makes you wonder how someone can be so confident without actually seeing the fighter whose specific abilities are being compared. Imagine someone claiming to be an expert about a current fighter's abilities and style and then finding out they've never seen them box.

[Tuan_Jim]

You lost me the moment you said Marciano could make super middleweight.

How? By chopping off his arm?

He didn't have a lb to lose by the time he weighed in. Unlike say Areolla and Stiverne, who will way in this week I'm confident around 40 to 50lbs what would be their peak overweight.

[crusader]

Through dehydration.

Loads of fighters today have hardly any body fat yet weigh significantly more the day of the fight than they did during the weigh-in; it's not about fat. Marciano was roughly the same size as contemporary super-middleweights and light-heavyweights, although most are taller than him and have a much longer reach. And he absolutely could've healthily dropped more weight. The picture below, which shows that he had nothing close to a heavyweight frame by recent standards, is him at 184 without notable definition; many fighters that look like that today are said to look 'soft'.

You mentioned Tua, but he was 245 when he fought Lewis and he naturally has a thicker build (see his legs at any weight) than Dempsey and Marciano. In fact, when he was around 225 (roughly Tyson's weight too) he didn't look softer than Marciano does in the picture I've posted, and 225 is heavier than Firpo and Fulton typically weighed, even though they're considered super heavyweights by some of you.

[drunkenpiper36]

I'd easily rank Fulton ahead of Wlad. Basically a carbon copy of Klitschko except Fred actually defeated quality competition. A prime Willard would've knocked his a$$ out too . . .Willard had the chin and power of Wach, but unlike Wach actually had some athleticism and skills.

Let's just cut to the chase. If someone posts a hypothetical match up between Wladimir Klitschko and Joe Grimm, the only correct answer to the winner on THIS forum is Joe Grimm, right?

[Othro]

Through dehydration.

Loads of fighters today have hardly any body fat yet weigh significantly more the day of the fight than they did during the weigh-in; it's not about fat. Marciano was roughly the same size as contemporary super-middleweights and light-heavyweights, although most are taller than him and have a much longer reach. And he absolutely could've healthily dropped more weight. The picture below, which shows that he had nothing close to a heavyweight frame by recent standards, is him at 184 without notable definition; many fighters that look like that today are said to look 'soft'.

You mentioned Tua, but he was 245 when he fought Lewis and he naturally has a thicker build (see his legs at any weight) than Dempsey and Marciano. In fact, when he was around 225 (roughly Tyson's weight too) he didn't look softer than Marciano does in the picture I've posted, and 225 is heavier than Firpo and Fulton typically weighed, even though they're considered super heavyweights by some of you.

This . He brings up Tua as the small man but Tua is a short man but has 60 pounds on Dempsey and Marciano.

[palooka]

[quote="Tuan_Jim"]You lost me the moment you said Marciano could make super middleweight.

How? By chopping off his arm?

He didn't have a lb to lose by the time he weighed in. Unlike say Areolla and Stiverne, who will way in this week I'm confident around 40 to 50lbs what would be their peak overweight.[/quote]

Marciano had chubby legs

[Bobbyptsd]

I'd easily rank Fulton ahead of Wlad. Basically a carbon copy of Klitschko except Fred actually defeated quality competition. A prime Willard would've knocked his a$$ out too . . .Willard had the chin and power of Wach, but unlike Wach actually had some athleticism and skills.

Let's just cut to the chase. If someone posts a hypothetical match up between Wladimir Klitschko and Joe Grimm, the only correct answer to the winner on THIS forum is Joe Grimm, right?

That might be taking it a bit far.

Just a bit, though.

[palooka]

I'd easily rank Fulton ahead of Wlad. Basically a carbon copy of Klitschko except Fred actually defeated quality competition. A prime Willard would've knocked his a$$ out too . . .Willard had the chin and power of Wach, but unlike Wach actually had some athleticism and skills.

Let's just cut to the chase. If someone posts a hypothetical match up between Wladimir Klitschko and Joe Grimm, the only correct answer to the winner on THIS forum is Joe Grimm, right?

That might be taking it a bit far.

Just a bit, though.

It depends if Jack Dempsey was swinging Grimm round by the ankles.

[Bobbyptsd]

Well I just assumed that was implied, of course.