SRR at LHW.

[VG_Addict]

If Robinson beat Maxim for the LHW title, where would you rank him? Would he unquestionably be the GOAT, instead of being tied with Greb and Armstrong?

[warriorpoet]

I think he was,without question,the greatest pound for pound boxer of all time!The man was once 128-1-2!He had a 93 fight winning streak,won his 1st 40 pro fights.World Welterweight and Middleweight Champ(5 times),he fought the best of his era.Undefeated amateur,Golden Gloves Champion.Unfortunately he held on too long.The Maxim thing was a fluke.He was running circles around him,he didn't answer the bell for the 14th round because of the extreme heat(The original ref,Ruby Goldstein passed out and had to be replaced),nothing Joey Maxim did.It was the only time he was officially stopped in his career.

[evrenb]

Ditto....except he did lose a couple of times as an amateur.....for me i cannot consider anyone else when asked the greatest fighter of all time...based on skill level and achievement...i remember ring magazine posing the question ' what could robinson have done to improve his historical ranking?' the answer : ' walk on water'... I like that....and true!

[HomicideHenry]

I like how Carmen Basilio said it, concerning the Robinson/Maxim fight when a commentator had asked him if Robinson lost legit or because of the heat he was robbed, "Maxim was under those hot lights too." If Robinson was the moron/idiot to do twice as much work, under those lights, which lead to his dehydration and loss--- then it was a tactical error on his part, not biological. Maxim, played it safe, collected his energies, and when the time was right pounced.

The fact that Robinson didn't try his hand again at LHW, let alone against Maxim, I think speaks more to Maxim's credit than it does Robinson. If it was all just a matter of weight and the lights--- well hell, why not make the rematch in an outdoor baseball stadium like Shea or Soldier's Field, and there would of been no excuses. It never happened. And who's fault is that, in the end, but Robinson's.

However--- since this is all hypothetical--- had he won, would I of considered him the greatest? To me, Robinson was the best welterweight of all time, just like how Charles was the best LHW of all time. Robinson, possible second or third best middleweight of all time--- I consider Harry Greb to be number one in that regard. Had he won the LHW crown, it sure would of been the cherry to put on the cake--- but I don't know how dominate, competitive, etc he would have been at the weight. The men were bigger, stronger, tougher, etc. and there were very talented guys at that weight in those days.

But would he be the greatest, in my eyes? No. For me the greatest boxer there ever was, without question, was Sam Langford. From 135 pounds to 200 pounds, he beat the world's best. I would also argue that Henry Armstrong was a shade better than Robinson. I'd argue that certain historical fighters like Fitzsimmons accomplished more, in a far more rougher and bloodier time in boxing. I'd argue that head to head, guys like Leonard and Duran probably could have beaten Robinson. And lets be honest here, theres an awful lot of guys in the lighter weight divisions who seldom ever get mentioned at all--- and who possibly accomplished more than Robinson, or who had just as great, if not slightly better talent than Robinson. Willie Pep, in my mind, was better accomplished than Robinson and was just as skilled defensively. Jimmy Wilde is also one of the best, who I may argue was every bit as good as Robinson was--- hell, Gene Tunney great scientific boxer that he was, said Wilde was the greatest boxer he ever saw, and anyone who knows anything about boxing knows that Tunney kept his opinions near and dear to himself and broke boxing down to the atoms when determining strategies and fighters worths.

[Ambling Alp II]

The Maxim fight is really the only thing that bothers me about his career. Most of what we have seen on film of his was when he was well past his best and he still looked very good.
Always difficult to compare fighters of different weight classes, but I still have to go with him as the very best of all time.

[misterpunch]

I like how Carmen Basilio said it, concerning the Robinson/Maxim fight when a commentator had asked him if Robinson lost legit or because of the heat he was robbed, "Maxim was under those hot lights too." If Robinson was the moron/idiot to do twice as much work, under those lights, which lead to his dehydration and loss--- then it was a tactical error on his part, not biological. Maxim, played it safe, collected his energies, and when the time was right pounced.

The fact that Robinson didn't try his hand again at LHW, let alone against Maxim, I think speaks more to Maxim's credit than it does Robinson. If it was all just a matter of weight and the lights--- well hell, why not make the rematch in an outdoor baseball stadium like Shea or Soldier's Field, and there would of been no excuses. It never happened. And who's fault is that, in the end, but Robinson's.

However--- since this is all hypothetical--- had he won, would I of considered him the greatest? To me, Robinson was the best welterweight of all time, just like how Charles was the best LHW of all time. Robinson, possible second or third best middleweight of all time--- I consider Harry Greb to be number one in that regard. Had he won the LHW crown, it sure would of been the cherry to put on the cake--- but I don't know how dominate, competitive, etc he would have been at the weight. The men were bigger, stronger, tougher, etc. and there were very talented guys at that weight in those days.

But would he be the greatest, in my eyes? No. For me the greatest boxer there ever was, without question, was Sam Langford. From 135 pounds to 200 pounds, he beat the world's best. I would also argue that Henry Armstrong was a shade better than Robinson. I'd argue that certain historical fighters like Fitzsimmons accomplished more, in a far more rougher and bloodier time in boxing. I'd argue that head to head, guys like Leonard and Duran probably could have beaten Robinson. And lets be honest here, theres an awful lot of guys in the lighter weight divisions who seldom ever get mentioned at all--- and who possibly accomplished more than Robinson, or who had just as great, if not slightly better talent than Robinson. Willie Pep, in my mind, was better accomplished than Robinson and was just as skilled defensively. Jimmy Wilde is also one of the best, who I may argue was every bit as good as Robinson was--- hell, Gene Tunney great scientific boxer that he was, said Wilde was the greatest boxer he ever saw, and anyone who knows anything about boxing knows that Tunney kept his opinions near and dear to himself and broke boxing down to the atoms when determining strategies and fighters worths.

Armstrong better than robinson? but you must mean at welterweight which goes against what you already said!

[evrenb]

I like how Carmen Basilio said it, concerning the Robinson/Maxim fight when a commentator had asked him if Robinson lost legit or because of the heat he was robbed, "Maxim was under those hot lights too." If Robinson was the moron/idiot to do twice as much work, under those lights, which lead to his dehydration and loss--- then it was a tactical error on his part, not biological. Maxim, played it safe, collected his energies, and when the time was right pounced.

The fact that Robinson didn't try his hand again at LHW, let alone against Maxim, I think speaks more to Maxim's credit than it does Robinson. If it was all just a matter of weight and the lights--- well hell, why not make the rematch in an outdoor baseball stadium like Shea or Soldier's Field, and there would of been no excuses. It never happened. And who's fault is that, in the end, but Robinson's.

However--- since this is all hypothetical--- had he won, would I of considered him the greatest? To me, Robinson was the best welterweight of all time, just like how Charles was the best LHW of all time. Robinson, possible second or third best middleweight of all time--- I consider Harry Greb to be number one in that regard. Had he won the LHW crown, it sure would of been the cherry to put on the cake--- but I don't know how dominate, competitive, etc he would have been at the weight. The men were bigger, stronger, tougher, etc. and there were very talented guys at that weight in those days.

But would he be the greatest, in my eyes? No. For me the greatest boxer there ever was, without question, was Sam Langford. From 135 pounds to 200 pounds, he beat the world's best. I would also argue that Henry Armstrong was a shade better than Robinson. I'd argue that certain historical fighters like Fitzsimmons accomplished more, in a far more rougher and bloodier time in boxing. I'd argue that head to head, guys like Leonard and Duran probably could have beaten Robinson. And lets be honest here, theres an awful lot of guys in the lighter weight divisions who seldom ever get mentioned at all--- and who possibly accomplished more than Robinson, or who had just as great, if not slightly better talent than Robinson. Willie Pep, in my mind, was better accomplished than Robinson and was just as skilled defensively. Jimmy Wilde is also one of the best, who I may argue was every bit as good as Robinson was--- hell, Gene Tunney great scientific boxer that he was, said Wilde was the greatest boxer he ever saw, and anyone who knows anything about boxing knows that Tunney kept his opinions near and dear to himself and broke boxing down to the atoms when determining strategies and fighters worths.

I agree that Langford is up there though I feel Robinson competed at a time when the talent pool was far deeper.

[HomicideHenry]

Armstrong better than robinson? but you must mean at welterweight which goes against what you already said!

Armstrong held three world titles at the same time, in different weight classes, and was robbed in his bid for the middleweight title as well. Being a blown up lightweight and accomplishing as much as he did, in nearly 300 some odd fights, against a rather steep pool of competition--- is just as great, if not greater, than what Robinson accomplished. At least in my mind.

[evrenb]

Sugar Ray defeated so many good and great fighters : I do consider Armstrong and Langford top 10 also. . It's busy at the top! Ray beat amongst others : -

Sammy Angott
Marty Servo
Fritzie Zivic
Maxie Berger
Jake Lamotta
Jackie Wilson
Henry Armstrong
Tommy Bell
Jose Basora
Joe Curcio
Artie Levine
George Abrams
Jimmy Doyle
Bernard Docusen
Kid Gavilan
Steve Belloise
Jean Walzack
Robert Villemain
Charlie Fusari
Bobo Olson
Bobby Dykes
Jean Stock
Luc Van Dam
Hans Stretz
Randy Turpin
Rocky Graziano
Rocy Castellani
Gene Fullmer
Carmen Basilio
Denny Moyer
Ralph Dupas...


not a bad resume...

[warriorpoet]

Thanks for all the feedback guys.It says Robinson was undefeated as an amateur,85-0.The Maxim fight was definitely a strange fight and I could not tell you why there was no rematch.Maxim was an ok fighter,82-29-4 but only had 21 ko's in those wins.He did beat Armstrong who was far more experienced at the time.Greb and Langford definitely have to be in the discussion for greatest of all time.I think that debate will go on forever!

[evrenb]

Thanks for all the feedback guys.It says Robinson was undefeated as an amateur,85-0.The Maxim fight was definitely a strange fight and I could not tell you why there was no rematch.Maxim was an ok fighter,82-29-4 but only had 21 ko's in those wins.He did beat Armstrong who was far more experienced at the time.Greb and Langford definitely have to be in the discussion for greatest of all time.I think that debate will go on forever!

Im sure it was proved that Robinson lost a couple of times as an amateur...someone dug the info up...cant remember where I heard it...

[warriorpoet]

Thanks for all the feedback guys.It says Robinson was undefeated as an amateur,85-0.The Maxim fight was definitely a strange fight and I could not tell you why there was no rematch.Maxim was an ok fighter,82-29-4 but only had 21 ko's in those wins.He did beat Armstrong who was far more experienced at the time.Greb and Langford definitely have to be in the discussion for greatest of all time.I think that debate will go on forever!

Im sure it was proved that Robinson lost a couple of times as an amateur...someone dug the info up...cant remember where I heard it...

I've read undefeated a few times and seen it some where he had like 2 or 3 losses,who knows?