Ridiculous to claim he 'ducked' Froch, he'd moved up in weight and chose a big money fight at MSG with Jones Jr, rather than fight Froch at home for less money. I don't think he was too keen on giving Froch the payday either after he'd been calling him out since before he won the British title. One of those eliminators was due to be against Denis Inkin, I believe it was originally scheduled for the night he beat Rybacki, but Inkin pulled out, that was 3 weeks after Calzaghe beat Hopkins. He retired 2 months before the Taylor fight, so I'm not sure how an offer at that point is really relevant.
Ridiculous to claim he 'ducked' Froch, he'd moved up in weight and chose a big money fight at MSG with Jones Jr, rather than fight Froch at home for less money. I don't think he was too keen on giving Froch the payday either after he'd been calling him out since before he won the British title. One of those eliminators was due to be against Denis Inkin, I believe it was originally scheduled for the night he beat Rybacki, but Inkin pulled out, that was 3 weeks after Calzaghe beat Hopkins. He retired 2 months before the Taylor fight, so I'm not sure how an offer at that point is really relevant.
At a weight he'd left too. Froch also said he wouldn't move up for the fight.
G0mez wrote:"up and coming youngster" ? - sorry that's not right. Carl was the undefeated British & Commonwealth champion, but he was also installed as the #1 mandatory challenger to the WBC title.
Not even a Euro level champ then?
Compared to the elite level Calzaghe that is up and coming.
expe wrote:
They were beaten by Ottke on split decisions in Germany, little chance of getting anything out there with the judges in his pocket and that was a fight or two earlier.
If they were past it, why do Taylor, Kessler and Johnson count towards Froch's? Could even include Abraham in that since he'd already lost to Dirrell and he's nowhere near as good a super middleweight as he was at middleweight.
Good points tbf. I would also like to point out that Carl travelled tho.
Calzaghe did eventually go to America and went to Germany to fight Veit, but that's the same as travelling to fight me in my living room. I think the two are pretty similar resume wise, for me Calzaghe maybe nicks it by beating the better version of Kessler, as well as going up in weight, to go with his longevity, but there's certainly a very good argument for Froch having the better resume, but if the two ever met in the ring, Calzaghe would have beaten the poo out of it, wouldn't have stopped him though, unless McCracken decided he'd seen enough late on and pulled him out, but I couldn't ever see that happening, getting beat up for an extra round or two would be preferable for Carl, getting stopped would hurt him far more than anything he'd take late on.
Ward would of beaten Calzaghe though IMO on a separate note.
Ridiculous to claim he 'ducked' Froch, he'd moved up in weight and chose a big money fight at MSG with Jones Jr, rather than fight Froch at home for less money. I don't think he was too keen on giving Froch the payday either after he'd been calling him out since before he won the British title. One of those eliminators was due to be against Denis Inkin, I believe it was originally scheduled for the night he beat Rybacki, but Inkin pulled out, that was 3 weeks after Calzaghe beat Hopkins. He retired 2 months before the Taylor fight, so I'm not sure how an offer at that point is really relevant.
At a weight he'd left too. Froch also said he wouldn't move up for the fight.
Yeah but to be fair, why would Froch move up a weight to fight a guy when he's spent ages getting himself in a mandatory position to fight at that weight? On top of that, he would of been paid absolute peanuts.
columbo wrote:
Yeah but to be fair, why would Froch move up a weight to fight a guy when he's spent ages getting himself in a mandatory position to fight at that weight? On top of that, he would of been paid absolute peanuts.
Why on earth should a fighter in Froch's position at the time expect a fighter in Calzaghe's position to come to his weight?
Ridiculous to claim he 'ducked' Froch, he'd moved up in weight and chose a big money fight at MSG with Jones Jr, rather than fight Froch at home for less money. I don't think he was too keen on giving Froch the payday either after he'd been calling him out since before he won the British title. One of those eliminators was due to be against Denis Inkin, I believe it was originally scheduled for the night he beat Rybacki, but Inkin pulled out, that was 3 weeks after Calzaghe beat Hopkins. He retired 2 months before the Taylor fight, so I'm not sure how an offer at that point is really relevant.
At a weight he'd left too. Froch also said he wouldn't move up for the fight.
He probably did Froch a favour by vacating, he could have held the title up by claiming he was going to come back down, leaving Froch to sit on his arse waiting, only to never get the fight. In a way it could be compared to the DeGale situation Froch is in now, he has the option of fighting the young up and comer at home, or going to the US for big money and fighting in Vegas in the process, no one would blame him for doing that.
columbo wrote:
Yeah but to be fair, why would Froch move up a weight to fight a guy when he's spent ages getting himself in a mandatory position to fight at that weight? On top of that, he would of been paid absolute peanuts.
Why on earth should a fighter in Froch's position at the time expect a fighter in Calzaghe's position to come to his weight?
Well it wasnt really his weight initially was it. He went up to fight Hopkins. It wasnt like he'd been campaining at light heavy for years.
columbo wrote:
Yeah but to be fair, why would Froch move up a weight to fight a guy when he's spent ages getting himself in a mandatory position to fight at that weight? On top of that, he would of been paid absolute peanuts.
Why on earth should a fighter in Froch's position at the time expect a fighter in Calzaghe's position to come to his weight?
Well it wasnt really his weight initially was it. He went up to fight Hopkins. It wasnt like he'd been campaining at light heavy for years.
No, but he'd been struggling to make weight for a while. It's hardly the stuff of dreams fighting Carl Froch back then was it? Expe just made a good point, if he goes and fight Chavez Jr in Vegas and then retires has he ducked James Degale?
columbo wrote:
Well it wasnt really his weight initially was it. He went up to fight Hopkins. It wasnt like he'd been campaining at light heavy for years.
SNG wrote:
Why on earth should a fighter in Froch's position at the time expect a fighter in Calzaghe's position to come to his weight?
Well it wasnt really his weight initially was it. He went up to fight Hopkins. It wasnt like he'd been campaining at light heavy for years.
No, but he'd been struggling to make weight for a while. It's hardly the stuff of dreams fighting Carl Froch back then was it? Expe just made a good point, if he goes and fight Chavez Jr in Vegas and then retires has he ducked James Degale?
No but the initial point was that Froch didnt have to fight Groves but he did.
columbo wrote:
No but the initial point was that Froch didnt have to fight Groves but he did.
So what? It was a mandatory, he didn't have to fight it your right, but lets be honest he isn't moving to 175 and there weren't massive fights out there seeing as they seemingly don't want to fight Ward again.
Boxerbeetle123 wrote:No doubt in my mind that Froch has by far the better resume, but Calzaghe would have absolutely dominated Froch if they ever fought.
Along these lines although I'm not sure it would have been that easy. Think Calzaghe v Kessler.
columbo wrote:
Well it wasnt really his weight initially was it. He went up to fight Hopkins. It wasnt like he'd been campaining at light heavy for years.
No, but he'd been struggling to make weight for a while. It's hardly the stuff of dreams fighting Carl Froch back then was it? Expe just made a good point, if he goes and fight Chavez Jr in Vegas and then retires has he ducked James Degale?
No but the initial point was that Froch didnt have to fight Groves but he did.
Groves was mandatory, but Froch didn't really have many other options, Kessler had headed off into semi retirement and was yet to return, a return with Ward in the US was hardly attractive financially and Chavez Jr was busy dealing with Vera after getting a gift in the first fight. Now he has other options, it's much easier to compare the situations.
Boxerbeetle123 wrote:No doubt in my mind that Froch has by far the better resume, but Calzaghe would have absolutely dominated Froch if they ever fought.
Along these lines although I'm not sure it would have been that easy. Think Calzaghe v Kessler.
That version of Kessler was better than any Carl Froch though, he's just too slow to get near Calzaghe and not tight enough technically like Kessler to have any real success. Calzaghe wouldn't have faded late either and his chin was rock solid.
ttornado wrote:If Martinez beats Cotto.
I'd like to see Froch vs Martinez @168
If Froch won I think he edges Calzaghe.
Martinez is a small middleweight and his body is in bits. Beating a 40 year old blown up light middleweight with one good leg and one good hand wouldn't really do anything for Froch. The only wins that really make any big difference to his resume now IMO are Golovkin, Hopkins, Stevenson, Kovalev and Ward. There's little chance of him moving up in weight, Ward would beat him easily again and Golovkin would do some serious damage, heavy handed, brutal puncher and accurate with it too. Best to take the money now rather than get beat up trying to further his legacy.
Sklar wrote:Groves has still got some work to do to prove himself, mate. He's lost twice to a Carl Froch who is past his best. Who has he beaten beyond the prospect stage other than a geriatric road warrior? Time will tell with him.
Who says Froch is past his best though? I mean beyond the age next to his name. He doesnt really look any worse to me from 5 or so years ago.
expe wrote:
Martinez is a small middleweight and his body is in bits. Beating a 40 year old blown up light middleweight with one good leg and one good hand wouldn't really do anything for Froch.
His as big as Groves and handled JCCJr. Why is his body in bits? He had an injury, yes.
But Cotto will show us if his in bits.
I think Joe avoided a Froch fight because he viewed it as a no win situation. Carl wasn't bringing too much money to the table at the time and Joe knows a dangerous fighter when he sees one. Does that equate to a duck? Depends on your perspective, I suppose.
expe wrote:
Martinez is a small middleweight and his body is in bits. Beating a 40 year old blown up light middleweight with one good leg and one good hand wouldn't really do anything for Froch.
His as big as Groves and handled JCCJr. Why is his body in bits? He had an injury, yes.
But Cotto will show us if his in bits.
He's nowhere near as big as Groves, he used to be a welterweight for gods sake, there's always been talk of him moving down to 11st to fight Mayweather, there's no way Groves could make middleweight, let alone light middleweight and Martinez has never weighed more than 11st 5 1/2, he's not going to move up at 39. One of his knees has gone completely, he had to have major surgery after the Chavez Jr fight and again after the Murray fight and his left hand has broken in at least his last two fights, been cut in both too, his body is falling apart after 17 years as a professional and it just can't stand up to a 3 month training camp followed by a hard 12 rounds. The reflexes and punch resistance are going too, he's been down 3 fights in a row and Murray caught him square on a number of occasions. He didn't really handle Chavez Jr physically either, he completely outboxed him, but if he tried to wrestle or go toe to toe for 12 rounds he wouldn't have stood a chance. Cotto himself is past his best as well and shouldn't really be fighting at middleweight, but if he does win, there's the chance of a lucrative Mayweather rematch so it's worth taking the chance.
Froch got the better resume and not had an easy 'guided' career like Calzaghe had for massive portions of it.
Calzaghe would probably still have beaten Froch on points, especially at the time when they could have potentially fought each other as I think Froch was still not experienced at world level so it could have been a bit too soon for him to face such a well-schooled boxer like Joe, but it sure would have been interesting.
I believe that yes Joe did 'duck' Carl in my eyes, because there was better money on the table elsewhere and because Carl was a young and hungry guy who was a risky guy to face. So again you have to give props to Carl, because when in the same situation with a young British pretender calling him out he took the Groves fight and put him away.
That's the contrast between the 2 careers, Joe probably the better boxer, but Carl has laid it all on the line and had to do it the hard way travelling about for world title fights and not ducked a lively young British challenger when one came along at the tail-end of his career.
Boxerbeetle123 wrote:No doubt in my mind that Froch has by far the better resume, but Calzaghe would have absolutely dominated Froch if they ever fought.
This is the only logical answer to the poll
I'd agree with this line of logic: Froch has a far superior résumé but Calzaghe was a far superior boxer.
The problem is that Froch has proven on several occasions that logic goes out of the window as soon as Froch climbs between the ropes. The bloke has the most unbelievable win I've ever seen from a British sportsman.
The smart money would obviously be on Calazaghe but I just don't think you can write Froch off.
Ridiculous to claim he 'ducked' Froch, he'd moved up in weight and chose a big money fight at MSG with Jones Jr, rather than fight Froch at home for less money. I don't think he was too keen on giving Froch the payday either after he'd been calling him out since before he won the British title. One of those eliminators was due to be against Denis Inkin, I believe it was originally scheduled for the night he beat Rybacki, but Inkin pulled out, that was 3 weeks after Calzaghe beat Hopkins. He retired 2 months before the Taylor fight, so I'm not sure how an offer at that point is really relevant.
D