Better resume, Froch or Calzaghe?

[n1ebf]

[*]

Froch has the better opposition on his record - obviously. But the sport is about hitting and trying not to get hit. Not really in the same ballpark as Calzaghe on that front is he?
Have I imagined that Carl Froch once defeated Rob McCracken in a fight? possibly in the BBC days? off to check :>

WTF have you been smoking

For a good couple of years now I'd always suspected that Carl beat Rob by late stoppage (domestic fight), then I thought Rob had retired not long after and become Froch's trainer - which I thought was nice, mutual respect. Turns out I was completely wrong - I hadn't even got McCracken mixed up with another fighter, it was just pure fantasy!

[lefty]

[*]

Froch has the better opposition on his record - obviously. But the sport is about hitting and trying not to get hit. Not really in the same ballpark as Calzaghe on that front is he?
Have I imagined that Carl Froch once defeated Rob McCracken in a fight? possibly in the BBC days? off to check :>

WTF have you been smoking

For a good couple of years now I'd always suspected that Carl beat Rob by late stoppage (domestic fight), then I thought Rob had retired not long after and become Froch's trainer - which I thought was nice, mutual respect. Turns out I was completely wrong - I hadn't even got McCracken mixed up with another fighter, it was just pure fantasy!

It would of been an interesting one

[Bobbyptsd]

On the whole, I'd give Calzaghe a bit of an advantage. I think their top opponents stack up, but Joe hasn't lost of course.

I think that:

Hopkins
Kessler
Lacy
Mitchell
Reid
Eubank
Woodhall

Are on a similar level to(if we exclude losses, because I can't see why we'd count them as beneficial to a resume):

Kessler
Abraham
Pascal
Groves
Taylor
Direll
Bute

Looking at that again, I wouldn't fall out of my chair if someone argued Froch's resume is better. But I think Joe nicks it, and the fact that he hasn't lost gives him extra points in my book. While fighting the best and losing might be a good thing for fans evaluation of a fighter, I don't think losses should be factored in as a positive on a resume, particularly when it isn't particularly competitive(Ward). And if we go a bit further down the list, Jones jr., Bika, Sheika and Brewer for Calzaghe I believe are still comparable, if not better than than Johnson, Reid, Mack and Magee for Froch.

[lillywhite14]

I always find those struggling to put forward a case for Joe to "easily have the better record" always resort to an entirely different question...

'Yeah but what would happen if Carl and Joe fought prime for prime'

Joe would win. Thing is, I only think one of the two would be bang up for making the fight happen!

Joe was supremely talented, more so than Froch. As mentioned above though, there are still questions left regarding how good he actually was. Its a shame. He should have sought out the big names and top, top fighters back when he was in his pomp. Joe should have been a big name in boxing stateside years before the Hopkins fight.
One word springs to mind when talking Joe Calzaghe... ( no, not 'fanboys' ) unfulfilled.

I don't think that's fair. Joe didn't put his foot down with Warren over a steady stream of poor opponents, but he never avoided anyone. Wilfried Sauerland refused to go near him with Otke, Hopkins agreed to the fight when he was a middleweight and then backed off. Who else was there for him to fight?

During the 11 years Calzaghe was WBO champion, this is a list of other super-middleweight champions: Robin Reid, Sugarboy Malinga, Richie Woodhall, Markus Beyer, Glenn Catley, Dingaan Thobela, Davey Hilton, Eric Lucas, Danny Green, Cristian Sanavia, Mikkel Kessler, Frankie Liles, Byron Mitchell, Bruno Girard, Anthony Mundine, Manny Siaca, Sven Otke, Charles Brewer, Jeff Lacy, Alejandro Berrio.

Which of that lot would have improved his legacy?

Facing a guy like Jones in his prime will have meant moving up a division, going to America for peanuts and giving up 4 options. That was never going to happen with Warren in charge. Jones was also on HBO, while Calzaghe/Warren was on Showtime. But that was the curse of the WBO title - it was easy for others to ignore.

Joe ended up just another belt holder for the majority of his 11 year WBO stint.

Lacy elevated him to boxing star. My point is he should have been at that level 5 years earlier given his talent. Taking the ultra safety first option prevented that from happening. He could have gone to the states and fought all of Jones, Hopkins, Toney etc in and around super middle/light heavy. He should have been competing with these names much earlier on. Sure he would have been the opponent to begin with, and he would have lost ( certainly to Jones at that time ) but it would enhance his legacy.

Froch on the other hand cannot do anymore than he has done. He absolutely maximised his talent, and then some. Joe didn't.
Its a shame Joe didn't have Carl's mindset. Too many arguments being made about 'being the opponent', 'travelling' and 'giving up options'
As a fan that stuff don't bother me one bit, I want to see the best talent fighting each other.

[nitro5912]

Joe fought those who were placed infrint of him and its an impressive list even if some were past there best.

Carl fought the best but has fights like dirrell where it was a split and should have gone against him, he was bossed by Taylor for 12rds but pulled a punch out. He lost to a Kessler that joe had beaten and beat a Kessler who had been beat up by ward, had a lay off due to his eye injury and wasnt te same.

Carl has impressive reading fighting those at the top of te game when they did. But how would they face up to joes opponents? Would Taylor beat Hopkins? Would buts beat a prime Kessler? Does Glenn Johnson beat jeff lacy?

I like both but for joe is streets ahead in terms of skill and ability but Carl is a tough cookie and has the ability to dig deep. Shame they weren't at there peak together. Great fight

[gobbles]

Joe fought those who were placed infrint of him and its an impressive list even if some were past there best.

Carl fought the best but has fights like dirrell where it was a split and should have gone against him, he was bossed by Taylor for 12rds but pulled a punch out. He lost to a Kessler that joe had beaten and beat a Kessler who had been beat up by ward, had a lay off due to his eye injury and wasnt te same.

Carl has impressive reading fighting those at the top of te game when they did. But how would they face up to joes opponents? Would Taylor beat Hopkins? Would buts beat a prime Kessler? Does Glenn Johnson beat jeff lacy?

I like both but for joe is streets ahead in terms of skill and ability but Carl is a tough cookie and has the ability to dig deep. Shame they weren't at there peak together. Great fight

Does Johnson beat Lacy????? Lacy is basically similar to Bute, came over here with a title and a big reputation but was totally ruined by Calzaghe/Froch. Johnson had a great 12 months against an over-the-hill Jones and Tarver, but was basically a level below.

My point was there was no one else Calzaghe could have realistically have fought at super-middleweight. Froch is in a much better time for opponents.

[stevieb_8006]

[*]

Froch has the better opposition on his record - obviously. But the sport is about hitting and trying not to get hit. Not really in the same ballpark as Calzaghe on that front is he?
Have I imagined that Carl Froch once defeated Rob McCracken in a fight? possibly in the BBC days? off to check :>

WTF have you been smoking

For a good couple of years now I'd always suspected that Carl beat Rob by late stoppage (domestic fight), then I thought Rob had retired not long after and become Froch's trainer - which I thought was nice, mutual respect. Turns out I was completely wrong - I hadn't even got McCracken mixed up with another fighter, it was just pure fantasy!

your thinking of rob losing to Eastman then training him

[Anzi]

CORRECT !

[TheGman]

Is this a trick question?? Anyone with half a brain and knew a tiny bit about boxing knows that froch has the better resume by a country mile

[n1ebf]

Howard Eastman beat McCracken (TKO 10) then McCracken later became his trainer.

As for Hopkins fouling by tying one of Calzaghe’s hand up, Ali did the same thing over and over. Cooper talked about how good Ali was at grabbing your arm, others about how he’d tuck it under his elbow. Plus he was notorious for grabbing hold of the back of the head then pulling a fighter in close. They’re tricks of the trade.

thank you
I was looking at McCracken's record last night and I thought perhaps it was Eastman - as I'm pretty sure I probably saw the fight and then next news was that McCracken was training him. That'll be it......(how the hell did you remember who was training Howard Eastman 10 years ago? )

[n1ebf]

[*]

WTF have you been smoking

For a good couple of years now I'd always suspected that Carl beat Rob by late stoppage (domestic fight), then I thought Rob had retired not long after and become Froch's trainer - which I thought was nice, mutual respect. Turns out I was completely wrong - I hadn't even got McCracken mixed up with another fighter, it was just pure fantasy!

your thinking of rob losing to Eastman then training him

[Crease]

This is a hard one.

Statistically Calzaghe has the better record, he was World Champion for longer, had more defences, multiple weight world Champion... Plus he's got a perfect professional record. But if there's one criticism of Calzaghe it is that he didn't actively seek out the best fights at his weight class, and preferred to defend his WBO Title against lower class fighters and beat them convincingly.

Froch has beaten better fighters consistently. Since beating Pascal in December 2008, his list of victims is nearly incomprehensible - it's like reading Henry Armstrong's record from the late 30s.

It's a close one, but me being a boxing purist - I have to go with Froch... He's beaten more better fighters and put it "on the line" more times that Joe did.

I voted Froch

[whiskey]

I recall when Calzaghe pulled out from fighting Brian Magee in a sold-out Kings Hall in Belfast with just 48 hours to go, because there was a better offer to go and fight that total bum Mario Veit again in Germany whom he'd already beaten before in 2 minutes.

Sky were fuming and went from being set to televise from Belfast, to refusing to air him whatsoever.

Guess who offered to step in with Magee and save the show with 1 day's notice ? The Cobra.

That sums them both up in one short story.

[n1ebf]

Guess who offered to step in with Magee and save the show with 1 day's notice ?

Don't keep us in suspense. Who??

[expe]

I recall when Calzaghe pulled out from fighting Brian Magee in a sold-out Kings Hall in Belfast with just 48 hours to go, because there was a better offer to go and fight that total bum Mario Veit again in Germany whom he'd already beaten before in 2 minutes.

Sky were fuming and went from being set to televise from Belfast, to refusing to air him whatsoever.

Guess who offered to step in with Magee and save the show with 1 day's notice ? The Cobra.

That sums them both up in one short story.

What a load of bollocks, the WBO prevented the defence after Veit's team said it was too close to the scheduled mandatory defence.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/boxing/4355237.stm
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2005/m ... oecalzaghe

[whiskey]

What a load of bollocks, the WBO prevented the defence after Veit's team said it was too close to the scheduled mandatory defence.

Your language is very unladylike.

Only a teenager would go against the truth. I would hazard a guess that your what, about 17 years old ?

This was 2005 and you would have still believed in Santa.

[gobbles]

I recall when Calzaghe pulled out from fighting Brian Magee in a sold-out Kings Hall in Belfast with just 48 hours to go, because there was a better offer to go and fight that total bum Mario Veit again in Germany whom he'd already beaten before in 2 minutes.

Sky were fuming and went from being set to televise from Belfast, to refusing to air him whatsoever.

Guess who offered to step in with Magee and save the show with 1 day's notice ? The Cobra.

That sums them both up in one short story.

Sorry mate, that's a complete lie, one of the more fanciful untruths about Joe's career you have put out there.

The fight was called off because the WBO refused to sanction it. Joe was due to face his mandatory, Mario Veit, six weeks later. Klaus Peter Kohl, who had won the purse bids for Calzaghe-Veit, objected to the fight as a voluntary and the WBO supported him. Warren tried to get it on as a WBU title fight but Sky said no. Sky then showed Eamonn Magee as top of the bill, but, obviously, they saved £600,000 on Joe's purse.

I know, I was there staying at the Europa where Joe was also staying.

I don't know who told you your daft tale, but it is ridiculous, the idea that Calzaghe, who was tight at the weight for years, would get to the day before the weigh-in then pull out of a fight to go back into training for one six weeks later. The Belfast show was a Warren show for crying out loud and they had to offer everyone refunds. If you don't believe me, look up the press reports on google, rather than just using your imagination.

As for "that bum Mario Veit". The only man who beat him in his first 50 fights was Joe, and he beat Jurgen Braehmer and Charles Brewer, so he wasn't that bad. I'd like to see what you would say about an opponent for Froch who turned up with a 30-0 record. Kohl was so confident Veit would win, he bid 1.5million Euros for home advantage.

[expe]

What a load of bollocks, the WBO prevented the defence after Veit's team said it was too close to the scheduled mandatory defence.

Your language is very unladylike.

Only a teenager would go against the truth. I would hazard a guess that your what, about 17 years old ?

This was 2005 and you would have still believed in Santa.

Did the BBC and the Guardian report false stories? Were they lying? Why did your remove them from the quote, was it because they didn't suit your lies? I'll add RTE and the Telegraph in as well then.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/boxing/2005/031 ... -calzaghe/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2356845 ... fence.html

[whiskey]

Funny how the WBO never enforced anything at all in all those years... until the offer of 700,000 euro appeared to rematch the quickest and easiest win of his entire professional career landed.

I think it was even mentioned in his promoter's book as one of the stand out moments.

Mmm, he could have been injured against Magee - fancy such a ruling coming into play just 48 hours before? it's fascinating isn't it?

[whiskey]

Did the BBC and the Guardian report false stories? Were they lying? Why did your remove them from the quote, was it because they didn't suit your lies? I'll add RTE and the Telegraph in as well then.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/boxing/2005/031 ... -calzaghe/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2356845 ... fence.html

Remove what quotes? you see it says "edited" when someone changes their post. But hey, you continue with your agenda you sad little spotty teenager.

I can see you now, mashing your keyboard with your vitriolic google-search powered responses. You've already posted 20 plus times on this thread, attacking everyone.

One of the biggest reasons people say this forum is going down the pan, is that there are too many you's and not enough me's.

All the great and interesting debaters have left. Because turnips sign up and machine gun every thread with 20-30 posts of the same old shite, over and over.

[palooka]

I don't think you're being fair GOmez.

[gobbles]

Funny how the WBO never enforced anything at all in all those years... until the offer of 700,000 euro appeared to rematch the quickest and easiest win of his entire professional career landed.

I think it was even mentioned in his promoter's book as one of the stand out moments.

Mmm, he could have been injured against Magee - fancy such a ruling coming into play just 48 hours before? it's fascinating isn't it?

Well it didn't come into play 48 hours before. The WBO never sanctioned it, Warren kept stringing everyone - Calzaghe, Magee, Sky - along saying it would be OK and when the WBO dug their feet in, he tried to get the WBU to sanction it. I seem to remember Eric Teymour was the WBU champion and refused to vacate the title. Then Sky said they wouldn't pay for a WBU title fight anyway. That's why Sky were furious at Warren and soon after he had signed Amir Khan and gone off to ITV.

[expe]

Funny how the WBO never enforced anything at all in all those years... until the offer of 700,000 euro appeared to rematch the quickest and easiest win of his entire professional career landed.

I think it was even mentioned in his promoter's book as one of the stand out moments.

Mmm, he could have been injured against Magee - fancy such a ruling coming into play just 48 hours before? it's fascinating isn't it?

Fwank VVarren offered full refunds to anyone who had bought a ticket, there's no way he would have done that without a fight. It wasn't an offer from Universum, it was a mandatory defence that went to purse bids, Universum won and put the fight on in Germany, very little can be done about that, they were a powerful promotional group and the WBO probably didn't fancy messing about with the sanctioning fee from a 1.5 million euro purse bid.

[lefty]

The forum should be made invitation only or something then. That way only the people who are deemed worthy can be allowed in.

[palooka]

The forum should be made invitation only or something then. That way only the people who are deemed worthy can be allowed in.

we'd still sneak in somehow, like gatecrashing question time