Rocky Marciano...The Greatest?

[RazorKO]

Marciano head to head wise is not top 10. An ugly come forward slugger, no headmovement, he cut, slow as moloasis but carried a good right hand. Joe Frazier on the other hand.....HE is what you call a special fighter, its just unfournate that people have to rank Marciano over Joe Frazier when Frazier has beaten the better opposition and too many people look at his losses over Foreman.

Accomplishment wise however he is top 10 but only due to his undefeated record.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Marciano head to head wise is not top 10. An ugly come forward slugger, no headmovement, he cut, slow as moloasis but carried a good right hand. Joe Frazier on the other hand.....HE is what you call a special fighter, its just unfournate that people have to rank Marciano over Joe Frazier when Frazier has beaten the better opposition and too many people look at his losses over Foreman.

Accomplishment wise however he is top 10 but only due to his undefeated record.

slow as moloasis

then how was he able to punch with speedy HOF master boxers??

u gotta realize due to his short reach, his punches got there quicke even if his handspeed wasnt great.


even jaclem said marciano wasnr slow. he punches with people. marciano made up with his lack of handspeed with a higer volume of punches.


though marciano didnt have great handspeed, at certain times he could deliver blows very fast when he wanted too.

no headmovement

no he didnt bob and weave as much as frazier and tyson, but he made himself a very small target and got in a crouch that made him very difficult to hit cleanly. Marciano faced HOF master boxers who were incredibly accurate punchers yet they all said marciano was harder to hit than he looked . the very fact that marciano was ackward actually allowed marciano to use it to his advantage on defense.

"he aint easy to hit as they say, rocky rolled under punches, and weaves under punches. he blocks the body blows with his elbows. We've had to sacfifice some of his punching power- remember how he used to bringup his right hand we call Suzy Q from the floor- to tighten up his defense. yeah he has a defense, more than people appreciate. he has learned to block punches and roll under them and with them. - charley goldman in 1955


" rocky was a very decieving guy. goldman taught rocky so well he used to slip on punches....he was not easy to hit. he had that misconception. he used to slide on you, he would stick you with that jab much better than anyone realized."- angelo dundee


muhammad ali told angelo the 46 year old marciano was a lot tougher to hit with a jab than he looked. (ali picked marciano over frazier in fantasy matchup by the way. so did joe louis who shaked his head when he saw frazier hitting the bag and said "rocky hit harder.")




" the very ackwardness of his bobbing, weaving attack made him a difficult target."- whitney martin AP




"he fools you. when you look at him outside the ring he seems easy to hit, but if ur in the ring with him u find this isnt the case. his head his bobbing and he is in a crouch so low u cant get a clean shot at him."- opponent big keene simmons


"rocky fools you. he doesnt take as much punishment as it seems. he looks easy to hit inside but he isnt."- roland lastarza



"he has a peciuliar way of fighting. you get out of the way of his right and ur jaw catches a left. he feints with his fist and feints with his feet. and too often, you cant see where the punches are coming from."- ezzard charles



"he kept changing the speed and rythem of his propellors, that threw me off." - archie moore after there fight




walcott before there fight- "i guess he can punch, but hes got two left feet. Ive never seen anyone easy to hit. he wouldn't have qualified for joe louis bum of the month tour. If i lose to him, take my name out of the record books."


walcott after the fight - besides marciano earning walcotts respect as a great fighter, walcott said he was tougher to hit than he thought.


archie moore thought marciano was a sucker for left hooks, but he found when he tried to throw it left himself wide open for a right because of the way marciano positioned himself.



lastarza before the fight "that say hes improved. i ask you, how could a crude fighter like marciano improve"?

lastarza after " hes defintley a better fighter than when i last fought him. 5000 percent better."






watch rocky from 1953- 55, he has a new style and the new style allows him to have a better defense. watch marcianos fight with archie moore for his best display of defense.






SO even though defense is defintley not one of rockys strongpoints, his defense is better than people like u give him credit for. i mean dont take my word, take his opponents words.


u have to remember marciano faced a lot of guys walcott, charles, lastarxza moore who were incredible accurate and fast punchers and great defensively, it wasnt like he was facing a big slower slugger like nino valdes or bob baker. u would have found they would have had a lot more trouble dealing with rocky. the fact that these HOF master boxing counterpunchers say rocky was hard to hit, shows u how underated his defense is.

[BoxBuzz]

I like reading this....but you guys have less quit in you than the Blockbuster himself!

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

by no means am i saying rocky's defense was as good as some of the other great heavyweights like dempsey, tyson, johnson , because it certainly wasnt. but it certainly wasnt the "rocky balboa take a billion punches" defense that a lot of people unfairly portray his defense as.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

HE is what you call a special fighter

I agree razor, both frazier and marciano were special. both are defintley in the top 10

[e.c.flurry]

no wayy man rocky is not the best heavy ever like ok he was a great heavy specialy when being so small and he has great heart stamina and power but common.

actually i have him like top 5 since i,ve been seeing films of dempsey i was more convinced with demspey not by much but the top 10 is hard to do all of fighters were great period if you really consider watch each of theses guys bought to the table without being biased you'll know what i mean.

My top 5 would be like

1 Joe Louis
2 Muhammad Ali
3 Jack Dempsey
4 Larry Holmes
5 Rocky Marciano

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

no wayy man rocky is not the best heavy ever like ok he was a great heavy specialy when being so small and he has great heart stamina and power but common.

actually i have him like top 5 since i,ve been seeing films of dempsey i was more convinced with demspey not by much but the top 10 is hard to do all of fighters were great period if you really consider watch each of theses guys bought to the table without being biased you'll know what i mean.

My top 5 would be like

1 Joe Louis
2 Muhammad Ali
3 Jack Dempsey
4 Larry Holmes
5 Rocky Marciano

thats a good top 5

[bull]

Rocky Marciano

[evndrbsn]

no wayy man rocky is not the best heavy ever like ok he was a great heavy specialy when being so small and he has great heart stamina and power but common.

actually i have him like top 5 since i,ve been seeing films of dempsey i was more convinced with demspey not by much but the top 10 is hard to do all of fighters were great period if you really consider watch each of theses guys bought to the table without being biased you'll know what i mean.

My top 5 would be like

1 Joe Louis
2 Muhammad Ali
3 Jack Dempsey
4 Larry Holmes
5 Rocky Marciano

thats a good top 5

Where is Gerrie Coetzee?

[The Great John L]

no wayy man rocky is not the best heavy ever like ok he was a great heavy specialy when being so small and he has great heart stamina and power but common.

actually i have him like top 5 since i,ve been seeing films of dempsey i was more convinced with demspey not by much but the top 10 is hard to do all of fighters were great period if you really consider watch each of theses guys bought to the table without being biased you'll know what i mean.

My top 5 would be like

1 Joe Louis
2 Muhammad Ali
3 Jack Dempsey
4 Larry Holmes
5 Rocky Marciano

thats a good top 5

Where is Gerrie Coetzee?

Playing golf with Ernie Els -- ummm -- I mean Corrie Sanders. Damn, I always get those two mixed up!!

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

thats a good top 5

Where is Gerrie Coetzee?

Playing golf with Ernie Els -- ummm -- I mean Corrie Sanders. Damn, I always get those two mixed up!!

[mmm]

Marciano the greatest, probably not. But undefeated is undefeated. Maybe there were no ali's Louis' or even a Holmes back then. But his record means no off nights and lack luster performances against anyone including Charles or Walcott. He may not matched up well against the top 5 but I put him there on his accomplishments.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

There wasn't even a Gerry Cooney back then.

what are you trying to say??? i mean sure there were not top contenders that were 6'7 but here were plenty of contenders that were big and that were near cooneys 225lb peak weigh, and u gotta remember, marcianos era was filled with smaller speed master boxers that were more skilled than a big slower guy like cooney so it all evens out.

['Rocket'Rigby]

What you guys have got to remember is the bare facts of Marciano's career, OK it all may have come together for him at the right moment but you can't take anything away from him. Marciano v Walcott I, did not only show how good Marciano had to be but also how good Walcott was taking him 13 rounds. Walcott was no push over (with the boxers he had in his past) he only got better in age. Marciano in fight II, had done his homework and trained for every fight he had as though it was his last, this was the downfall of Walcott in the fight II. LaStarza, previously thought he had beaten Marciano and blabbed off about it upsetting Marciano with a few short words in doing so. So, The 'Rock' had one thing and one thing only in mind...demolition, and that was Rocky at his best. Charles again had proved a worthy fighter and nearly caused the upset of a stoppage when his ELBOW split Marciano's nose. Despite this Charles cleary showed he had what it took to beat Marciano but couldn't finish him, so Marciano finished him instead. Cockell not sure about this one, but again Marciano trained for every fight differently and put Cockell on the canvas in round 9. Now, a lot was said about the Moore fight and that it was thrown, if so 2 questions; 1) why would moore risk knocking Rocky down in the Round 2 and 2) why would Moore get up from the five knock-downs inflicted on him and not just stay down after the first. Simple, the 'Rock' beat him and beat him good. The thing about Marciano was he was an ugly boxer to watch, he had no style, skill and couldn't move like a boxer should. He was too small, too light and found it harder than other boxers and all these made it easier for other boxers to catch him. But, Marciano's attitude was simple, get hit, get hit, get close, get close and then set to work. All the things that created a disadvantage for Marciano he had to overcome to get him where he is and in doing so he remained undefeated.

[Ezzard]

I don't think Rocky was the greatest, but I do think he was a great champion and in terms of rating him in achievements he should be quite high. My problem with him is in head-to-head match ups. BUT saying that I do believe he was a sueprbly conditioned HW with possibly the greatest stamina and endurance of any champion (maybe Ali though).

I think if Rocky gets anyone into the championship rounds that he's got a really good chance, especially against some of the bigger men who simply couldn't match his work rate. It's whether Marciano can avoid taking too much punishemnt early on in the fights that is the key for me.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

ezzard was finished after that heroic guts and glory first marciano fight. in the rematch, charles was knocked down and shutout for 6 rounds until charles was able to cause a freakish cut with his elbow(or w/e it was) and nearly win the fight right there. but marciano had been dominating winning basically every round. charles was not the same, u could see it. in the 2nd fight, charles looked slower, sluggish, aged, battle worn.


poor lastarza was never the same after that terrible beating he took from rock in the 2nd fight. rocky really wanted to punish roland for his pre fight words "rocky takes so many punches hes got to be punch drunk". rocky hated seeing people like that and hated the thought of it. roland called him "punch drunk" was like waking a tiger from a deep sleep. Rocky made roland pay for his words breaking lastarzas arms and blood vessels, and chipping bones in his elbows requiring 6 different surgeries.



what do you guys like watching better....

the 51-52 one punch ko slugger marciano or

the 54-55 grind u down swarmer marciano??


- first theory is one of the reasons marciano didnt have one punch knockouts late in his career was golderman tinkered with and changed rock'y style making him more polished and better defensively and it taught rocky to throw shorter punches so he could have a higher volume and attrition of punches, but because of it he lost some power.

watch marciano vs layne compared to marciano vs moore u will see the difference
- and dont question laynes chin, because a couple months before he was able to take bob satterfields best punches and climb off the floor.




or you could believe the other theory about his KO punch, he lost it later on because of age (Rocky was 32 against cockell and moore compared to 27 when he beat louis in 1951)


or you could believe the last theory



he was never a one punch KO guy and once he faced "top" competion late in his career(cockell, charles, moore compared to louis,walcott,lastarza,layne,mathews,vingo and 30 other victims of suzie Q) he wanst able to knock the best guys out.



I will go with choice A.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

the most exciting rocky fight was prob.....


walcott-marciano I


and the next best were charles I and moore fights, what do u think?

[Ezzard]

the most exciting rocky fight was prob.....


walcott-marciano I


and the next best were charles I and moore fights, what do u think?

I agree.

BB, here's an ugly question for you, but it's a legitimate one... Rocky's greatness is partly derived from his 49-0 record, his exciting come from behind victories (both are sound principles) but does the fact that he was white alos enhance his reputation?

I recently saw a quote suggesting that Rocky was both the most overrated and underrated champion. I know it sounds crazy but on some level I understand the sentiment behind this contradiction. So does the race issue work in reverse too? Could it eb that people somethimes dismiss Marciano becasue he was white? Even Lennox Lewis in an interview late on in his career mentioned teh stigma of losing to a white HW.

Interested to hear your take on this.

['Rocket'Rigby]

the most exciting rocky fight was prob.....


walcott-marciano I


and the next best were charles I and moore fights, what do u think?

Surely Marciano v LaStarza II must be up there somewhere??? The 'Rock' was just unstoppable.

['Rocket'Rigby]

[/quote]

I agree.

BB, here's an ugly question for you, but it's a legitimate one... Rocky's greatness is partly derived from his 49-0 record, his exciting come from behind victories (both are sound principles) but does the fact that he was white alos enhance his reputation?

I recently saw a quote suggesting that Rocky was both the most overrated and underrated champion. I know it sounds crazy but on some level I understand the sentiment behind this contradiction. So does the race issue work in reverse too? Could it eb that people somethimes dismiss Marciano becasue he was white? Even Lennox Lewis in an interview late on in his career mentioned teh stigma of losing to a white HW.

Interested to hear your take on this.[/quote]

I think the fact that he was white and in a sport predominantley ruled by coloured men stands out because of that reason, as far as enhancing his reputation or legacy for that matter, I don't think so. Marciano was like a neutral balance, his admiration for Louis (Joe) and being of Italian descendants made him a icon for everybody. He gets the respect he deserves for being who he was, a very good boxer that remained undefeated through out his career, an establishment many coloured men could have had! As far as dismissing Marciano how could you and for what reason?

[Ezzard]

I agree.

BB, here's an ugly question for you, but it's a legitimate one... Rocky's greatness is partly derived from his 49-0 record, his exciting come from behind victories (both are sound principles) but does the fact that he was white alos enhance his reputation?

I recently saw a quote suggesting that Rocky was both the most overrated and underrated champion. I know it sounds crazy but on some level I understand the sentiment behind this contradiction. So does the race issue work in reverse too? Could it eb that people somethimes dismiss Marciano becasue he was white? Even Lennox Lewis in an interview late on in his career mentioned teh stigma of losing to a white HW.

Interested to hear your take on this.[/quote]

I think the fact that he was white and in a sport predominantley ruled by coloured men stands out because of that reason, as far as enhancing his reputation or legacy for that matter, I don't think so. Marciano was like a neutral balance, his admiration for Louis (Joe) and being of Italian descendants made him a icon for everybody. He gets the respect he deserves for being who he was, a very good boxer that remained undefeated through out his career, an establishment many coloured men could have had! As far as dismissing Marciano how could you and for what reason?[/quote]

Rocket

Do you think Rocky's standing in the sport, or on this site, is about right then? or do you feel he is underrated/overrated?

[barry]

Most of the top fighters of Marciano's era were better than Cooney ever dreamed of! Cooney was along the lines of Rex Layne, just a bit bigger. Fighters like Bob Baker and Tommy Jackson would have feasted on Cooney and boxed his ears off, while someone like Nino Valdes and Earl Walls could have just as easily put him out as he could have them.

[Rory McCloskey]

rocky marciano is a top 5 imo.

great stamina great power smart fighter, great heart.

but i think its impossible to put him at number 1. top 3?... i would be ok with that, but nomber 1 is too much of a stretch

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

before i answer all the replies and questions,



my take is marciano is not overated now, he was simply underated for his time. a lot of champs like rocky had there legacy and rating increased in time. does that mean rocky was overated?? no, IMO it means he was underated for his time. holmes was another one who was underated for his time.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

On the subject of how to rank Marciano, he doesn't make my top 10. Sure, he fought in a weak era, but he didn't even clean it out

this is one area where u will get an arguement from me,


marciano cleaned out his division more than most heavy champs. all 6 of his defenses were over # 1 or # 2 contenders. rock wasnt one to take on 2nd rate contenders or no name matches.


when marciano beat moore, he virtually cleanedo out the division because moore had already beaten all the other top contenders like valdes, baker. after the moore victory, there was simply NO BIG match on the table for rocky, and rocky said he did not want to defend against anything other than the best guys. rocky could have easily added 4 more victims to his list but he informed weill never to match him vs anything but big names and top contenders. guys like baker , valdes were losing a lot and simply didnt do enough to earn themselves a clear title shot. valdes did get his chance but blew it vs mooore.

and after the moore victory, marciano had no big matches. he spent the next year just waiting around for a potentially big matchup then retired at 33. patterson was said to be a year away, and it didnt look like cus D amato was about to send patterson in there until rock slowed down a little. rocky would have had to waited till late 56 or early 57 for a big match with machen.


the only mistake weill made IMO was cockell fight instead of nino valdes. weill actually planned a matchup for valdes AFTER cockell fight, but wanted to cockell fight first because he wanted to test rocky's nose before sending him in vs big slugger like nino. plus cockell was ranked # 2 so it wasnt off the wall to give him the shot. if weill wanted to face a champ in europe, IMO he should have gone after heinz nuehas, the big hard hitting euro champ. IMO better matchup. but i think im underating cockell who had quite fast hands, VERY TOUGH, and decent boxing skill. but if i had one regret, its the cockell fight instead of valdes or neuhas or baker.

of course, marciano did not duck anyone. weill like any manager was protective, but he wasnt steering rocky away from valdes, baker like some people exxagerate. weill simply saw bigger money matchups with charles who proved in the 1st fight to be more than a deserving challenger. fact is nino was losing a lot and didnt really earn his shot till 54 or 55. it was only when nino started to win regulary in 54 did weill pursue a match in 55, but moore also was craving a shot so the two squared off in eliminator and moore won. only time weill really protected rock during his title reing was taking cockell fight instead of moore or valdes to test rockys nose. one main reason charles got the title shot vs marciano was jim norris always remembered how charles defended his title a lot and followed IBC's orders during his reign of champion, and norris wanted to repay charles for his good services and charles clinched the title shot with two back to back wins over ranked contenders. marciano was a lot more protected by weill before he won the title than after. i always thought the two mistakes weill made was matching rocky vs savold instead of a clarence henry or satterfield, and then matching rocky vs cockell instead of a baker or walls.



but once again i dont see how rocky didnt clean out his division?? look at the great fighters he beat in his title defenses. just because he didnt defend it 20 times doesnt mean anything. rocky always took on # 1 or # 2 contenders. check out out of the holmes 20 defenses, how many were top contenders?


IMO a champion cleans out division when

- he defends his title over all the major and leading contenders

- virtually beats all the challengers to the point where there are no big matches anymore

- decisevely beats his opponents meaning in close fights he gives rematches

- does not leave his throne when there are big matchups awaiting or deserving challengers looking for a shot



all those things rock did clearly. its safe to say he cleaned out his division. check out ring magazine articles in 55, moore was considered by nearly everyone the next heavy champion. marcianos win over moore totally put the icing on the cake.



say what u want about valdes, baker, walls, neuhas, henry..... these guys simply lost too much and never did enough to really earn a shot. valdes like i said had his chance but lost to moore.




and how was marcianos era weak when the best 5 heavyweights were all in the hall of fame??


1. marciano
2. walcott
3. charles
4. moore
5. harold johnson

name me another era when the 5 top heavyweights are all in the hall of fame??


so u say moore and johnson were light-H.

well moore beat all the top contenders in heavy division including very big men and established himself top 50 heavyweight of all time. even at 48 years old moore was a top 10 contender in the 60s

harold johnson was a great heavy as well and beat many good heavies. even when johnson was past his prime, he beat eddie machen who is considered close to top 50 heavy of all time.


u think the alpha champs in the 80s would would have beat moore or johnson???

seens decagon underated his era because of some of top heavies in that era were small.



and how u dont rate rocky in the top 10 is beyond me.... unless ur list is head to head... u have no reason not to place rocky in top 10 based on accomplishments/ all time greatness