Was Ernie Terrell a real champion?

Ambling Alp II · Post by **Ambling Alp II** » 11 Jun 2014, 15:49

Thought this might be interesting. I have seen some books that recognize him in their list of champions and some that don't. He was the WBA champion when "governing Bodies" has less clout.

So was Terrell a legitimate champion? Or do you consider him a WBA champion similar to say Mike Weaver and Michael Dokes?
Or should he be considered just a beltholder akin to the IBO champion?

Othro · Post by **Othro** » 11 Jun 2014, 16:38

Ambling Alp II wrote:Thought this might be interesting. I have seen some books that recognize him in their list of champions and some that don't. He was the WBA champion when "governing Bodies" has less clout.

So was Terrell a legitimate champion? Or do you consider him a WBA champion similar to say Mike Weaver and Michael Dokes?
Or should he be considered just a beltholder akin to the IBO champion?

Weaver /Dokes type to me not a knock on him. I think he's under rated and he beat decent opposition to get to the belt.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 11 Jun 2014, 20:32

I'd rank him slightly above most post-80s non-undisputed champs as there were still only two recognized champs at the time and Ernie had beaten at one point practically all of the top contenders not named Ali.

yancey · Post by **yancey** » 11 Jun 2014, 23:23

A minor belt holder, not a real champion.

p4p1 · Post by **p4p1** » 12 Jun 2014, 00:01

I don't see how people can consider him the real champion when the guy who was stripped was still active and defending his championship, when he had the chance to be champ he got beaten handily.

evrenb · Post by **evrenb** » 12 Jun 2014, 04:21

p4p1 wrote:I don't see how people can consider him the real champion when the guy who was stripped was still active and defending his championship, when he had the chance to be champ he got beaten handily.

I agree with this....there should only be one champion of course....if there was an argument as to who was the champ then Ali answered it when they fought...Terrell was very difficult to beat at that time though...

Cap · Post by **Cap** » 14 Jun 2014, 19:40

Never thought much of Terrell. He was just holding the belt for safe-keeping until Ali wanted it back.

SenorPipino · Post by **SenorPipino** » 15 Jun 2014, 16:54

Nowadays, in this pathetic era of bloated titles, Terrell would probably be considered as legitimate a champion as anyone else.
Very few care if you're a true linear champ or just a belt carrier.

But back then, few actually considered Terrell a champion, unless you were a vehement Ali detractor and recognizing someone else as king of the boxing world made you feel better.

"What's my name? What's my name?"

drunkenpiper36 · Post by **drunkenpiper36** » 16 Jun 2014, 16:23

He was an alphabet champion in a similar sort of sense to the way that a lot of fragment holders would later become in the 80's, 90's, etc. He was a good fighter who beat some respectable contenders, but Muhammad Ali was " The champ."

Cap · Post by **Cap** » 17 Jun 2014, 07:36

Kinda' like being the World Boxing Society or the International Pugilism Assembly title holder today.

Sheila · Post by **Sheila** » 24 Jun 2014, 07:16

Yes he was. He followed the rules and won without controversy.

The WBA had the right to establish a proper Champion for their association.

Simon Lock · Post by **Simon Lock** » 25 Jun 2014, 07:28

It depends how strict you are being. Ali took over a year to fight again after beating Liston for the first time. If you strip a fighter of the title after a year of inactivity, there is a strong argument that Ernie was the best active fighter. He was the next best ranked by BoxRec at the time.

p4p1 · Post by **p4p1** » 25 Jun 2014, 08:21

Sheila wrote:Yes he was. He followed the rules and won without controversy.

The WBA had the right to establish a proper Champion for their association.

No as long as Ali was fighting or signed to fight he wasn't the proper champion.

Simon Lock wrote:It depends how strict you are being. Ali took over a year to fight again after beating Liston for the first time. If you strip a fighter of the title after a year of inactivity, there is a strong argument that Ernie was the best active fighter. He was the next best ranked by BoxRec at the time.

Because of injury, he was still signed to fight Liston so he was still and active fighter.

Sheila · Post by **Sheila** » 25 Jun 2014, 11:55

Ernie Terrell

I don't feel it was right to punish Ernie Terrell, while Sonny Liston and Cassius Clay were
playing Ping-Pong.

In early 1964, Ernie had agreed to face any of the following; Doug Jones, Floyd Patterson,
Cleveland Williams and/or Eddie Machen in an Elimination Tournament.

He did not want any gifts, he wanted to earn the WBA Championship. Also, back in 1962, Ernie
was the first one to say that Sonny Liston was a lumbering slow old man.

Giancarlo · Post by **Giancarlo** » 25 Jun 2014, 15:47

Here we go again.

Buzz, what are you waiting for this time?

Ambling Alp II · Post by **Ambling Alp II** » 27 Jun 2014, 11:21

So far 7 out of 19 people consider Terrell to have been at least a major title holder. That's about 37%, which is actually fairly high.

I think some people see him listed somewhere as a WBA champion and automatically think he was a major titleholder. At the time, he was not considered a major titleholder at all. Terrell's WBA title had so little credibility that some books that list heavyweight champions that don't even mention that he was a WBA champion.
These same books mention heavyweights who only held the WBA title or only the WBC title in the 1970s and later.

People retroactively considering someone as a major titleholder (when they weren't) now happens with the WBO. The WBO was not a major title for many years after it was formed. Yet apparently people see someone listed as a WBO champion and assume that someone held a major title when they were not.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 27 Jun 2014, 12:00

Giancarlo wrote:Here we go again.

Buzz, what are you waiting for this time?

I wait for enlightenment.....as always. Are you under the impression that this Sheila is someone OTHER than who she purports to be?

Is your hatred for Ernie Terrell so visceral that you must take it out on a young woman from Australia? Say it aint so!

She's only said a couple of dozen things so far. Perhaps you are rushing to judgment?

Giancarlo · Post by **Giancarlo** » 27 Jun 2014, 16:27

BoxBuzz wrote:
Giancarlo wrote:Here we go again.

Buzz, what are you waiting for this time?

I wait for enlightenment.....as always. Are you under the impression that this Sheila is someone OTHER than who she purports to be?

Is your hatred for Ernie Terrell so visceral that you must take it out on a young woman from Australia? Say it aint so!

She's only said a couple of dozen things so far. Perhaps you are rushing to judgment?

Are you determined to keep a room ready for Il Duce no matter what Buzz?

Wasn't him trying to destroy the integrity of the database enough for you?

:??

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 27 Jun 2014, 16:40

He has no more access to the database. All secure now. I know you will sleep better knowing this.

As far as Sheila goes, who knows what is real here. Maybe just a kindred spirit who likes Ernie....must be more than one right?. Maybe this is the man, nay the legend himself. Looks to be living a continent away....but not beyond possible. I know some have their spidey senses tuned to Sheila and some others.

Shall we shoot first, and figure this out later?

Anywho, as always, such crap always has, and always will, fall away of it's own weight in time.

Stay tuned,.....and vigilant. lol.

Cap · Post by **Cap** » 27 Jun 2014, 18:08

Actually in answer to the original question, I recall the media of the day felt he was kind of an interim champion. A lot of them didn't like Clay/Ali and were willing to give Terrell and his mob connected backers some ink. What does Real Champion mean anyway? He was recognized by one of the original governing bodies [The WBA predated the WBC if I remember correctly] and had their championship belt. Nat Fleischer founder and publisher of The Ring Magazine was one of the small faction that supported Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali.

Sheila · Post by **Sheila** » 27 Jun 2014, 18:16

Back in 1964,

What was Ernie Terrell supposed to do, say no to the WBA for offering him a Championship bout in
their association.

Whether Ernie was a good or fair fighter can be debated, but as for a Champion, yes he was.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 27 Jun 2014, 19:56

Sheila.....sensible words. Don't let the naysayers shiver your skirt none.

ThatOne · Post by **ThatOne** » 27 Jun 2014, 20:18

i will withhold my opinion on whether or not Shelia is a doppelganger until he or she gives me his or her's evaluation of Rudi Lubbers.

Sheila · Post by **Sheila** » 28 Jun 2014, 06:13

ThatOne wrote:i will withhold my opinion on whether or not Shelia is a doppelganger until he or she gives me his or her's evaluation of Rudi Lubbers.

Who or what is a Rudi Lubbers ?

Cap · Post by **Cap** » 28 Jun 2014, 08:26

Only the greatest heavyweight the Netherlands (formerly Holland) ever produced.