Top USA Emerging Cruiser Shimmell 15-0 13KO stops Corn in 1

[Dennis]

Bobby Thomas, really? He won't get near Jordan.

[Lennox]

Bobby Thomas, really? He won't get near Jordan.

Bobby Thomas won't fight Jordan or won't beat Jordan?

[Dennis]

Bobby Thomas, really? He won't get near Jordan.

Bobby Thomas won't fight Jordan or won't beat Jordan?

He won't fight Jordan for good reason as he won't beat Jordan.

[Lennox]

Do you agree if Jordan beat Bobby Thomas it would be his best opponent?

[Dennis]

Do you agree if Jordan beat Bobby Thomas it would be his best opponent?

Absolutely not. Several of Jordan's opponents would beat Bobby.

[hurricanemitch14]

I see Jordan signed with Haymon.....btw i see no problem with the way hes been brought up so far. I like the activity in his career so far.....he had a very amateur career so we know he can fight.

Harvey Jolly is a michigan boy maybe that can be next.....i'd like to see Jordan fight Quantis Graves.

[world ranked]

if Jordan is signed with Haymon I have change my mind and it doesn't matter what his opposition is now. I believed that his opponents has been picked because he's doesn't have have big promoter backing but if he's with Haymon that's just as good.

[Dennis]

Lennox - did you see that Al Sands was knocked down en route to an 8th round TKO of Kilfilian? Yet you have Sands ranked higher than Jordan.

[walter5]

Congrats on the signing. There is absolutely no way anyone can reasonably rank Sands ahead of Jordan. It's preposterous. Sands going life and death with Kilfian should tell you all you need to know. I would be shocked if Kilfian made it out of the 2nd round with Shimmell.

[Lennox]

Al Sands won the fight. The ratings are objective not subjective. Jordan needs to prove himself and he will be ranked accordingly until then he is #83. Al Sands is slightly higher #70. It will be interesting to see what Al Heymon does, I suspect the same as what we are telling you to do.

[walter5]

I think you just pointed out the biggest flaw with the computerized rankings: The Eye Test

[Lennox]

Walter - There will always be fighters that are better than their rating or not as good as. As soon as a subjective opinion is in place there is corruption. The Independent World Boxing Rankings take out corruption because they evaluate the rating on a results basis.

Every fighter unless they are number 1 think they are in the wrong position, very few will think they are higher than they should be, it is natural because of the eye test they have seen and know what that boxer can do.

Shimmell is probably a very good fighter. As soon as he proves it his rating will go up.

[walter5]

But Sands hasn't proved it and his rating has gone up.

[Dennis]

Each computerized ranking system has a different methodology it uses to rank the boxers. The computerized rankings from BoxRec, IBO, Sports-Ratings.com, IWBR and others all have boxers ranked differently.

[Lennox]

Walter - Al Sands has just beaten better rated opposition at this stage. Neither has a top 100 fighter on his resume.

Dennis - Exactly, and anyone that thinks those ratings are better has a low boxing knowledge. Every rating in the IWBR can be justified, it is more of a ladder than a computerized system. To say they are no good or not better is the same as saying "ratings should not be on results". Boxrec allows unproven fighters a high ranking by fighter poor fighters. IWBR does not allow.

Subjectively Jordan Shimmell may be 25.

[Dennis]

Lennox - each system's algorithm is "objective" but there is subjectivity in deciding what value to place on certain factors. I see flaws in each computerized system and in subjective human ranking systems. Computerized systems don't account for a guy who had defeated a highly ranked boxer who may have been injured, sick or just got caught with a big punch. That boxer in the IWBR system moves up a lot even though he may never be able to duplicate that outcome again if he tried. Also some boxers who were very good and won against top opposition get old and yet maintain a high ranking. You obviously are biased towards your rankings but they all have their place.

[Lennox]

All fighters regardless of age have to make compliant fights, so an old fighter that earned his position will not keep his ranking unless he makes compliant fights. As soon as a fighter becomes non compliant he loses points.

IWBR is more, man that beat the man that beat the man. I am not biased, I can see situations where another's ranking is better than IWBR. No ranking system will get every fighter into the exact position. That aside there are not many situations where I see fighters out of line.

[Dennis]

All fighters regardless of age have to make compliant fights, so an old fighter that earned his position will not keep his ranking unless he makes compliant fights. As soon as a fighter becomes non compliant he loses points.

IWBR is more, man that beat the man that beat the man. I am not biased, I can see situations where another's ranking is better than IWBR. No ranking system will get every fighter into the exact position. That aside there are not many situations where I see fighters out of line.

Compliant - that was defined by the creator of the program. Also the initial rankings points when it was created were initially determined by someone. Sometimes the word "computerized" doesn't mean there isn't human involvement/input. The old AIBA scoring system was called a computer scoring system but all it was a data collection system from 5 keypads operated by humans.

[Lennox]

Dennis - The compliant aspect was suggestions made by the Association of Boxing Commissions and was part of the Muhammad Ali Act. We worked closely with them and agreed that fighters should maintain their ranking by fighting another high ranked fighter within an 18 month period. We have introduced other stages of compliance ourselves since as part of applying fairness but I agree those things do make the formula subjective. If you look at a 12 month period as the time a fighter is tagged to another, that means if you and me fight and you beat me, you will be ranked above me for 12 months, if I win fights I push you forward, the points I win I share 50% with you. It can work the other way and if after you have beaten me you then lose you push me down the ratings. In the 13th month the tag is removed. 12/13 months could be subjective but it's the way most organisations work with regard to a fighting period deemed for inactivity.

Jordan is currently non compliant with rule n100 but it won't affect him until he is in the top 60 at which stage, each month he is in the top 60 he loses 10% of his points, so he is outside the top 60. In order to break into the higher part of the ratings he needs to fight a top 100 fighter. When in the first 35, he needs to have fought at fighter in the first 50 in the last 18 months.

Compliance in the early stages may help prevent a death, it may even have already. It stops unknown, unproven fighters fighting a 12 round world title contest against opposition too difficult for them. It is possible that a sanctioning body allowing a fighter to fight for its championship unproven and then resulting in the death of a boxer could be sued for professional neglience, on two occassions I have been approached by lawyers wanting to use IWBR as evidence. Both times the fighter was compliant so we did not support their claim. Courts like objective aspects to decide, a method has to be decided subjectively if agreed as the right way then everything afterwards becomes objective.

Compliance, could be termed subjective of course. I think there are aspects that only apply to US Law. All it is really asking is the question, is this fighter proven/deserving of his position. The other things you mention about a fighter winning when another is ill is very hard to patrol but I agree in principle that in a perfect scenario it should be factored. We will overturn results on the subjective opinion of the press if enough think the judges messed up.

[Dennis]

How did Lomachenko beat a #40 ranked guy in his first bout and only has a peak rank of #58? Lomachenko is currently #64 after losing a split decision to a jr lightweight Salido who IWBR rankings has at #3. Shouldn't Lomachenko be ranked much highter? He lost a very close bout to the #3 jr lightweight and defeated your #40 featherweight. BoxRec has him at #18 which seems about right.
Then you have Miguel Marriaga who is ranked #17 with a peak of #16. The only top 100 guy he defeated was #43. BoxRec has him at #41 which seems more appropriate.
Gary Russell Jr had a peak ranking of 18 and is currently #28. BoxRec also has Russell at #28.

[Lennox]

Lomachenko had no points obviously before he defeated #40 ranked fighter he took a % of his points, the #40 lost points hence his position of 58 after the points were averaged out. He then lost a fight and dropped more points so he is 64 now.

Marriaga when he was #78 defeated the #43 fighter Jesus Galicia, that moved Marriaga to number 40.
A few months later Jesus Galicia defeated the #14 ranked fighter and with the tagging situation shared his points with Marriaga to push him to number 20. A couple of weak wins and he is where he is now.

Box rec have Marriaga 41 which you said was appropriate. They also have Galicia at number 13...the man who Marriaga beat.

Do you want to show some grace and say IWBR right Boxrec wrong or maintain your position.

Gary Russell jnr has had weak wins in the last 15 months so others have gone past.

[Dennis]

Marriaga when he was #78 defeated the #43 fighter Jesus Galicia, that moved Marriaga to number 40.
A few months later Jesus Galicia defeated the #14 ranked fighter and with the tagging situation shared his points with Marriaga to push him to number 20. A couple of weak wins and he is where he is now.

Box rec have Marriaga 41 which you said was appropriate. They also have Galicia at number 13...the man who Marriaga beat.

Do you want to show some grace and say IWBR right Boxrec wrong or maintain your position.

Marriaga hasn't defeated anyone of note since winning a very close bout to Galicia. Galicia on the other hand took a step up and defeated your #14 ranked boxer and deserves to move ahead of Marriaga. Unfortunately Galicia will not pick up or lose any additional points from the win as the boxer he defeated Gonzalez died after losing the fight.
I have no problem with BoxRec rewarding a guy for being active and taking a risky fight against high level opposition and being rewarded for the victory. The fact they moved him ahead of a guy he lost a close fight to almost a year ago is fine. I haven't watched these fights but I might even believe that Galicia would win a rematch with Marriaga should they meet again. Or it could be a case of styles. Maybe Galicia just can't deal with Marriaga's style but would beat a lot of guys who Marriaga would lose to. So in that situation who is the better boxer? Who should be ranked higher?

[Lennox]

Well Dennis that is some of the difference in the way we work. We reward results, that's not to say we won't overturn a bad one if enough press say so, but if the fighter wins he is a better fighter than the other fighter for at least 12 months.

I don't know these fighters styles so I cant say subjectively who is best.

It may have been a close fight, but the Colombian won away from home in Mexico against a Mexican.

[Dennis]

Lennox how does your system handle a situation like Ali, Frazier and Foreman? Frazier beats Ali, then Foreman beats Frazier, then Ali beats Foreman. Those kinds of scenarios happen and sometimes all within 12 months.

[Lennox]

Dennis it does happen a few times a year that within the same 12 months A beats B. B beats C then C beats A. It goes by the most recent result so C- A -B