British Elite Fighters

[rio]

Calzaghe clearly was elite. He retired as undisputed no1 fighter in super mid and light heavy division. How anyone can say any different is beyond me. As mentioned above David Haye was elite as cruiser. He cleared out the entire division.

[daviddee]

Calzaghe clearly was elite. He retired as undisputed no1 fighter in super mid and light heavy division. How anyone can say any different is beyond me. As mentioned above David Haye was elite as cruiser. He cleared out the entire division.

Did Haye fight Hernandes/ Cunningham or Huck?? He never cleared out the division

[Sklar]

So what's anyone who can't make light heavyweight, but only walks around at around 14st supposed to do? They're too small to be a heavyweight, but can't make light heavyweight, they might as well not box if we thought like that.

Holyfield walked around at less than 14 stone (he gained some weight leading up to fights). Marciano never saw 14 stone in shape. Joe Louis was 14 stone. Ali wasn't 15 stone when he beat Liston. Etc...

[NazNaci1]

For talent, Hamed was the best. You can argue the toss about why he lost and why he 'retired' when he did, about his delicate hands or the Ingle factor, but for talent, he was elite.

[Sklar]

For talent, Hamed was the best. You can argue the toss about why he lost and why he 'retired' when he did, about his delicate hands or the Ingle factor, but for talent, he was elite.

No he wasn't. He got his ears boxed off by MAB. Naz was brilliant to watch and had a kick like a mule but he got found out at the highest level.

[NazNaci1]

For talent, Hamed was the best. You can argue the toss about why he lost and why he 'retired' when he did, about his delicate hands or the Ingle factor, but for talent, he was elite.

No he wasn't. He got his ears boxed off by MAB. Naz was brilliant to watch and had a kick like a mule but he got found out at the highest level.

Erm....yes he was. If we are talking prime, he was. Simple. MAB is an ATG fighter even then, it was a fairly close fight with Naz, by that time, a different animal to the fighter who smashed his way to the top.

Let's not turn this into ANOTHER 'Calzage was better, no Naz was, No Lennox' debate. I simply disagree with your assessment and I could debate all day about why, but as I said, my intention is not to derail this thread. We can save that for another day / thread.

[Sklar]

...by that time, a different animal to the fighter who smashed his way to the top.

Snashed his way to the top against..?

I loved Naz too but he didn't deliver at the very highest level. That much is proven.

[NazNaci1]

...by that time, a different animal to the fighter who smashed his way to the top.

Snashed his way to the top against..?

I loved Naz too but he didn't deliver at the very highest level. That much is proven.

I loved Benn, Eubanks and Lennox and don't carry the same affection for Hamed, though I liked him. The guy 'unofficially' was undisputed featherweight champion, for a time. So I think he did ok against the top fighters. On the way down, he met the best fighter, an ATG and lost. No shame in that.

Shame a few others didn't take his approach to fights and opponents (take that how you will).

[David McAllister]

I don't want to wind anybody up about Naz, Joe and Ricky but all of them were most prominent during their time with allegedly and a time when we weren't all blessed with the tools we have now to dig into the boxers they are fighting. Back then all we knew about most overseas was what we were told by the promoter, the tv channel where the fights were being shown etc Frank was/is really good at picking the opponents for his fighters getting them a World title and getting them defending against less than world class opposition. The only time either of these three boxed an elite fighter was when they left Frank.

Barrera chased Naz for years for a bout and fought some of his career over here so I'm sure he could have had that fight anytime he wanted.

Ok Joe never got beat and was world champion for years but there was lots of dummy defences during his Super Middleweight reign Tocker Pudwill, Mario Veit, Evans Ashira etc Joe was very close imo to being elite but i personally would have liked him to fight Roy Jones jr/Bernard Hopkins earlier but that is only me!! I rate his win over Kessler very highly on his CV higher than his win against a faded Roy Jones jr and his win against Hopkins (I personally felt Hopkins won that fight with the cleaner more telling shots.)

Ricky Hatton was a very good fighter but lets be honest he wasted good years defending his WBU belt against ancient ex World champions before getting hold of Kostya Tzsyu who had fought once in 2 years due to injury and that fight only lasted a couple of rounds. The next times he stepped up into Elite class he was comfortably beaten.

Frank built these fighters up his way and had their best successes whilst under his guidance, i'm not saying that is the wrong way to do things because they all had long successful careers under him and were well known to the public.

[NazNaci1]

Can't really disagree, Dave.

[mickey1975]

I don't want to wind anybody up about Naz, Joe and Ricky but all of them were most prominent during their time with allegedly and a time when we weren't all blessed with the tools we have now to dig into the boxers they are fighting. Back then all we knew about most overseas was what we were told by the promoter, the tv channel where the fights were being shown etc Frank was/is really good at picking the opponents for his fighters getting them a World title and getting them defending against less than world class opposition. The only time either of these three boxed an elite fighter was when they left Frank.

Barrera chased Naz for years for a bout and fought some of his career over here so I'm sure he could have had that fight anytime he wanted.

Ok Joe never got beat and was world champion for years but there was lots of dummy defences during his Super Middleweight reign Tocker Pudwill, Mario Veit, Evans Ashira etc Joe was very close imo to being elite but i personally would have liked him to fight Roy Jones jr/Bernard Hopkins earlier but that is only me!! I rate his win over Kessler very highly on his CV higher than his win against a faded Roy Jones jr and his win against Hopkins (I personally felt Hopkins won that fight with the cleaner more telling shots.)

Ricky Hatton was a very good fighter but lets be honest he wasted good years defending his WBU belt against ancient ex World champions before getting hold of Kostya Tzsyu who had fought once in 2 years due to injury and that fight only lasted a couple of rounds. The next times he stepped up into Elite class he was comfortably beaten.

Frank built these fighters up his way and had their best successes whilst under his guidance, i'm not saying that is the wrong way to do things because they all had long successful careers under him and were well known to the public.

You can pick holes in ANY fighters careers. The most glaring was Lewis getting chinned by McCall and Rahman, no excuse for me. You can criticise Joes opponents but not the man himself. The thread has become more of a "who is an all time great" thread for me as I believe there are three or four elite fighters in each division. Was Floyd-Hatton not an elite fight? Both undefeated world champions?

[keithmoonhangover]

Lewis, Calzaghe, Naz and Hatton were all elite.

Regardless, Hatton was p4p #2 at one point, if that's not elite, then I don't know what is.

[Boxerbeetle]

Calzaghe & Lewis were definitely elite fighters. Obviously you can pick holes in Calzaghe's resume (which does have plenty of weak spots) or Lewis's ko defeats, but if those 2 guys aren't considered elite then there doesn't seem to be much room for anyone to be considered elite - you could use exactly the same criticisms to argue RJJ, Mayweather Jr or Joe Louis aren't elite fighters.

Naz is a slightly different story for me, his decline & downfall mirrored Tyson's - a brief, glorious run of dominance, followed by over-confidence, lack of preparation/focus & a reliance on one-shot ko power. I believe Naz had all the tools to be a true elite fighter, but he lost to the only elite opponent he faced & never tried to come back from it (Calvo fight aside obv), so we'll never really know.

[Horse]

Regardless, Hatton was p4p #2 at one point, if that's not elite, then I don't know what is.

No, he wasn't.

[crusader]

For talent, Hamed was the best. You can argue the toss about why he lost and why he 'retired' when he did, about his delicate hands or the Ingle factor, but for talent, he was elite.

No he wasn't. He got his ears boxed off by MAB. Naz was brilliant to watch and had a kick like a mule but he got found out at the highest level.

Erm....yes he was. If we are talking prime, he was. Simple. MAB is an ATG fighter even then, it was a fairly close fight with Naz, by that time, a different animal to the fighter who smashed his way to the top.

Let's not turn this into ANOTHER 'Calzage was better, no Naz was, No Lennox' debate. I simply disagree with your assessment and I could debate all day about why, but as I said, my intention is not to derail this thread. We can save that for another day / thread.

Naz-MAB wasn't close. Can't see more than 4 rounds for Naz in that one, and several rounds were one-sided in MAB's favor.

[rio]

Calzaghe clearly was elite. He retired as undisputed no1 fighter in super mid and light heavy division. How anyone can say any different is beyond me. As mentioned above David Haye was elite as cruiser. He cleared out the entire division.

Did Haye fight Hernandes/ Cunningham or Huck?? He never cleared out the division

He beat No1 and No2 in the division. Mormeck in his backyard and Enzo both my Ko, that makes him elite. The above fighters were ranked well below.

[mickey1975]

What should have been a great thread has turned into a crap one. Joe wasn't elite? Ok... Ricky in 2007 wasn't? Haye after destroying Enzo, what would you have described him as? A top ten cruiser?

[keithmoonhangover]

Regardless, Hatton was p4p #2 at one point, if that's not elite, then I don't know what is.

No, he wasn't.

Ask Boxrec, he was.f

[mickey1975]

Regardless, Hatton was p4p #2 at one point, if that's not elite, then I don't know what is.

No, he wasn't.

Ask Boxrec, he was.f

Boxrec isn't the be all and end all. I agree with Horse, Hatton was never p4p number two, but was elite.

[keithmoonhangover]

Boxrec isn't the be all and end all. I agree with Horse, Hatton was never p4p number two, but was elite.

The Ring had him at #2 as well.

[Sklar]

Who owns The Ring again?

[David McAllister]

Maybe I should have had a few others as Elite but my interpretation of Elite was more of a fighter who could beat everybody in their division in their prime at the time of their career in that division,

David Haye at Cruiser was Elite, but Naz, Joe, Ricky and Carl imo didn't or couldn't beat the best in there divisons.

Naz could have fought Barrera, Morales. If he had beaten either then I would have had him as Elite

Joe, if he had beat a Super Middleweight version of Roy Jones jr or Bernard Hopkins I would have classed him as Elite

Ricky, if he managed a win over either Pacman, Floyd or fought and beat Cotto I would have classed him as Elite

Carl, If Carl had managed the win over Andre Ward I would have had him Elite.

Maybe I am being too picky but that is my definition of Elite, I respect all other opinions on this and that is why I started the thread not to have people say mine or others opinions are wrong, but to hear other ideas on this especially on the older fighters that I have not seen as much of.

[mickey1975]

Maybe I should have had a few others as Elite but my interpretation of Elite was more of a fighter who could beat everybody in their division in their prime at the time of their career in that division,

David Haye at Cruiser was Elite, but Naz, Joe, Ricky and Carl imo didn't or couldn't beat the best in there divisons.

Naz could have fought Barrera, Morales. If he had beaten either then I would have had him as Elite

Joe, if he had beat a Super Middleweight version of Roy Jones jr or Bernard Hopkins I would have classed him as Elite

Ricky, if he managed a win over either Pacman, Floyd or fought and beat Cotto I would have classed him as Elite

Carl, If Carl had managed the win over Andre Ward I would have had him Elite.

Maybe I am being too picky but that is my definition of Elite, I respect all other opinions on this and that is why I started the thread not to have people say mine or others opinions are wrong, but to hear other ideas on this especially on the older fighters that I have not seen as much of.

Barrera, Morales and Marquez were all elite at the same time! As are Froch and Ward, Ricky and Floyd etc. Again, you might as well just say, "Which Brit was ever number one in their division?".

[David McAllister]

Maybe I should have had a few others as Elite but my interpretation of Elite was more of a fighter who could beat everybody in their division in their prime at the time of their career in that division,

David Haye at Cruiser was Elite, but Naz, Joe, Ricky and Carl imo didn't or couldn't beat the best in there divisons.

Naz could have fought Barrera, Morales. If he had beaten either then I would have had him as Elite

Joe, if he had beat a Super Middleweight version of Roy Jones jr or Bernard Hopkins I would have classed him as Elite

Ricky, if he managed a win over either Pacman, Floyd or fought and beat Cotto I would have classed him as Elite

Carl, If Carl had managed the win over Andre Ward I would have had him Elite.

Maybe I am being too picky but that is my definition of Elite, I respect all other opinions on this and that is why I started the thread not to have people say mine or others opinions are wrong, but to hear other ideas on this especially on the older fighters that I have not seen as much of.

Barrera, Morales and Marquez were all elite at the same time! As are Froch and Ward, Ricky and Floyd etc. Again, you might as well just say, "Which Brit was ever number one in their division?".

Maybe but like I said I am giving my opinion and what I class as elite, you have your opinion it's all good!!

[daviddee]

What about elite journeymen?? I'm going for Kristian Laight as the only one as he's mr reliable :)