Was Ernie Terrell a real champion?

[BoxBuzz]

i will withhold my opinion on whether or not Shelia is a doppelganger until he or she gives me his or her's evaluation of Rudi Lubbers.

Who or what is a Rudi Lubbers ?

Surely this answer exonerates Sheila.

Or does it? Is this a clever scheme to obfuscate?


Which is it? Giancarlo......what in Green Acres is going on here?

[Sheila]

Didn't Ernie Terrell fight Cleveland Williams,

When both Cassius Clay and Floyd Patterson avoided him in 1963.

[BoxBuzz]

Sheila, it wasn't vey nice that Ali taunted and picked on Ernie for their entire fight. I mean, it would have been better if he would have just knocked him out earlier, rather than show that sort of cruelty to another professional. It was obvious that he only kept him in the fight, to further humiliate him. Sometimes Ali was devoid of all professional courtesy. Of course Ali was just asking for Ernie to acknowledge his chosen name....so maybe it was justified.

Wouldn't you agree?

[Sheila]

Sheila, it wasn't vey nice that Ali taunted and picked on Ernie for their entire fight. I mean, it would have been better if he would have just knocked him out earlier, rather than show that sort of cruelty to another professional. It was obvious that he only kept him in the fight, to further humiliate him. Sometimes Ali was devoid of all professional courtesy. Of course Ali was just asking for Ernie to acknowledge his chosen name....so maybe it was justified.

Wouldn't you agree?

Didn't most of the boxing pundits predict that the newly named Muhammad Ali would stop Ernie Terrell in 12.

I guess you could say, that though Muhammad Ali won, he failed in this bout.

[BoxBuzz]

Unless you consider that a KO is painless, and even stops the embarrassment for a limited time while one is unconscious.

I imagine that we both agree that this choice on Ali's part was cruel and unusual punishment for the Hapless Terrell on that night.

Ali certainly could have, and probably should have KO'd him, but showed no mercy, and simply kept hurting the poor man.

It was difficult to watch, and only shows how cruel Ali could be.

Right?

[Ambling Alp II]

Actually in answer to the original question, I recall the media of the day felt he was kind of an interim champion. A lot of them didn't like Clay/Ali and were willing to give Terrell and his mob connected backers some ink. What does Real Champion mean anyway? He was recognized by one of the original governing bodies [The WBA predated the WBC if I remember correctly] and had their championship belt. Nat Fleischer founder and publisher of The Ring Magazine was one of the small faction that supported Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali.

Really, I have never heard anyone from the media gave Terrell any support as champion; but I'm sure there were a few.
He was recognized by one of the governing bodies for no legitimate reason whatsoever.
Many members of the media didn't like Ali, but like Nat Fleischer considered him the "real champion".

What does real champion mean? I guess it means different things to different people. To me it's the guy who deserves the title because of who he beat in the ring. (Usually this means beating the previous champion.) If he was justifiably stripped (which Ali wasn't) then he is not the "Real Champion" anymore.

Ernie Terrell probably wasn't considered the champion by his immediate family. He had so little support that some books don't even bother mentioning him as being the WBA champion. The same books mention people like John Tate and Mike Weaver.

[Sheila]

January 5, 1966

Ernie Terrell was a guest on the Tonight Show starring Johnny Carson.

Ernie was a cool jazz-man.

That is a Champion in my book.

[BoxBuzz]

Then by all means, get yourself a new book!

[yancey]

Actually in answer to the original question, I recall the media of the day felt he was kind of an interim champion. A lot of them didn't like Clay/Ali and were willing to give Terrell and his mob connected backers some ink. What does Real Champion mean anyway? He was recognized by one of the original governing bodies [The WBA predated the WBC if I remember correctly] and had their championship belt. Nat Fleischer founder and publisher of The Ring Magazine was one of the small faction that supported Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali.

Really, I have never heard anyone from the media gave Terrell any support as champion; but I'm sure there were a few.
He was recognized by one of the governing bodies for no legitimate reason whatsoever.
Many members of the media didn't like Ali, but like Nat Fleischer considered him the "real champion".

What does real champion mean? I guess it means different things to different people. To me it's the guy who deserves the title because of who he beat in the ring. (Usually this means beating the previous champion.) If he was justifiably stripped (which Ali wasn't) then he is not the "Real Champion" anymore.

Ernie Terrell probably wasn't considered the champion by his immediate family. He had so little support that some books don't even bother mentioning him as being the WBA champion. The same books mention people like John Tate and Mike Weaver.

To my way of thinking, Ali was the one and only champ from February, 1964 up until February, 1970 when he announced his retirement shortly before the Ellis-Frazier fight.

[Sheila]

Was Ernie Terrell the best of a bad crop of Heavyweights. Yes

But, the WBA was correct in their decision in 1964.

Give the WBA credit. They had the guts to strip Muhammad Ali, and also ban Sonny Liston from
their association at the same time.

That's two birds with one stone.

[BoxBuzz]

Actually in answer to the original question, I recall the media of the day felt he was kind of an interim champion. A lot of them didn't like Clay/Ali and were willing to give Terrell and his mob connected backers some ink. What does Real Champion mean anyway? He was recognized by one of the original governing bodies [The WBA predated the WBC if I remember correctly] and had their championship belt. Nat Fleischer founder and publisher of The Ring Magazine was one of the small faction that supported Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali.

Really, I have never heard anyone from the media gave Terrell any support as champion; but I'm sure there were a few.
He was recognized by one of the governing bodies for no legitimate reason whatsoever.
Many members of the media didn't like Ali, but like Nat Fleischer considered him the "real champion".

What does real champion mean? I guess it means different things to different people. To me it's the guy who deserves the title because of who he beat in the ring. (Usually this means beating the previous champion.) If he was justifiably stripped (which Ali wasn't) then he is not the "Real Champion" anymore.

Ernie Terrell probably wasn't considered the champion by his immediate family. He had so little support that some books don't even bother mentioning him as being the WBA champion. The same books mention people like John Tate and Mike Weaver.

To my way of thinking, Ali was the one and only champ from February, 1964 up until February, 1970 when he announced his retirement shortly before the Ellis-Frazier fight.

Does your total rumpswabbing service in behalf of the Ali machine know no bounds?

[BoxBuzz]

Was Ernie Terrell the best of a bad crop of Heavyweights. Yes

But, the WBA was correct in their decision in 1964.

Give the WBA credit. They had the guts to strip Muhammad Ali, and also ban Sonny Liston from
their association at the same time.

That's two birds with one stone.

Was Ernie the best at that time?

[Sheila]

If Ernie Terrell wasn't the WBA Champion, he would have been ranked as the #1 Challenger.

Does that make him the best ? > Maybe, maybe not.

But at the time in early-1967, Ernie was miles better than;
* Brian London
* Henry Cooper
* George Chuvalo
* Karl Mildenberger
* Cleveland Williams
* Zora Folley

[Jaywheel]

Now what do these fighters all have in common?

[Ambling Alp II]

Before Terrell fought the WBA title, he was 1-1 vs Williams and had beat Folley. At the time of the WBA's bogus strippage, you could make a decent case that he was the best heavyweights besides Liston and Ali. After beating Machen for the WBA title, he did beat Jones and Chuvalo.


So while he was never the real champion, he did have a pretty good streak for a few years.

[DrDuke]

Terrell was a good boxer. He was big, especially for his time, but he was pretty mobile, had a good jab. Maybe a bit dirty with holding. Anyway he had decent scalps. What about him being a champ? Well, he was a champion of Dokes and Weaver caliber. Kinda secondary champion, but the belt had been vacated and Terrell had won it. Of course, Dokes, Weaver and others, who had been in Holmes era, would have lost to Larry and some of them had actually lost, Weaver had been among them, for example. So as Terrell, he had finally lost to the main champion, so to speak. In his time people strictly wanted to see only one champion, but for today the phenomenon of several champs is normal. So, the poll isn't fully reflects the situation. Terrell was a legitimate beltholder, but he still wasn't a major champion.

[SenorPipino]

Terrell was a good boxer. He was big, especially for his time, but he was pretty mobile, had a good jab. Maybe a bit dirty with holding. Anyway he had decent scalps. What about him being a champ? Well, he was a champion of Dokes and Weaver caliber. Kinda secondary champion, but the belt had been vacated and Terrell had won it. Of course, Dokes, Weaver and others, who had been in Holmes era, would have lost to Larry and some of them had actually lost, Weaver had been among them, for example. So as Terrell, he had finally lost to the main champion, so to speak. In his time people strictly wanted to see only one champion, but for today the phenomenon of several champs is normal. So, the poll isn't fully reflects the situation. Terrell was a legitimate beltholder, but he still wasn't a major champion.

Ernie Terrell was about as legitimate a heavyweight champion back in the 1960s as Manuel Charr is today.

The belt wasn't vacated. It was unceremoniously stripped from Ali for opting for a rematch with Liston. The WBA ostensibly had a bug up its arse about championship rematches.

But the sanctioning body also didn't care for Ali and his Muslim affiliations or Liston and his shady life.

So they stripped the champ and Terrell won a dreary encounter with Eddie Machen in 1965 to claim the laughable belt.

Ali set the record straight in 1967 by drubbing Terrell over 15 rounds.

"What's my name, sukkah???"

[Duran1970]

Miles better than Chuvalo???? Give your head a shake..George was robbed and everyone knows it..had mob management and backing that rigged that decision....

[Kalan]

A minor belt holder, not a real champion.

I agree... ET may have been worse than Michael Bentt.... Bentt could hit, even if he was the worst boxer you ever saw.

Terrell never looked like a threat to do anything in his first 30 fights... He got beaten twice by a terrible Cruiserweight Johnny Gray... He lost to the ridiculous Wayne Bethea...

ET won his Title by beating 192-pound Eddie Machen who was no threat to the top Heavyweights.. ET defended against cherry picked Doug Jones and George Chuvalo... Jones was a fat Light Heavyweight... Chuvalo was a punching bag.

I was pulling for Chuvalo to get the upset over Terrell, but he weighed in as light as Ernie and had no gas... Chuvalo wasn't going to outbox anybody.. He'd have done better if he muscled up to 225 and did more roadwork and wind sprints.. I watch boxers jog along at 5 miles an hour. Maybe they're running with their trainer who's 40 or 50. No wonder they can't push the pace. There's weight rooms all over the place and they don't lift weights. They don't do sets of pushups, pullups, situps, back extensions, lunges, obliques, and bitch about the officials when they lose a fight.

Terrell lost to Ali... Then he lost to Thad Spencer, fighting a really terrible fight... He went down to Mexico and lost to Manuel Ramos which defies common sense.. You couldn't miss Ramos with a punch so how can you possibly lose?.. Ernie probably won every round like he swore he did--but you knock Ramos out.. Terrell was a lame assed hitter.

[oogiebe]

A minor belt holder, not a real champion.

I agree... ET may have been worse than Michael Bentt.... Bentt could hit, even if he was the worst boxer you ever saw.

Terrell never looked like a threat to do anything in his first 30 fights... He got beaten twice by a terrible Cruiserweight Johnny Gray... He lost to the ridiculous Wayne Bethea...

ET won his Title by beating 192-pound Eddie Machen who was no threat to the top Heavyweights.. ET defended against cherry picked Doug Jones and George Chuvalo... Jones was a fat Light Heavyweight... Chuvalo was a punching bag.

I was pulling for Chuvalo to get the upset over Terrell, but he weighed in as light as Ernie and had no gas... Chuvalo wasn't going to outbox anybody.. He'd have done better if he muscled up to 225 and did more roadwork and wind sprints.. I watch boxers jog along at 5 miles an hour. Maybe they're running with their trainer who's 40 or 50. No wonder they can't push the pace. There's weight rooms all over the place and they don't lift weights. They don't do sets of pushups, pullups, situps, back extensions, lunges, obliques, and bitch about the officials when they lose a fight.

Terrell lost to Ali... Then he lost to Thad Spencer, fighting a really terrible fight... He went down to Mexico and lost to Manuel Ramos which defies common sense.. You couldn't miss Ramos with a punch so how can you possibly lose?.. Ernie probably won every round like he swore he did--but you knock Ramos out.. Terrell was a lame assed hitter.

Great insight Kalan! Really! I'm glad no one mentioned the "thumbing" that "robbed" Terrell v. Ali.

[Kalan]

He was a white, good looking, intelligent, well spoken Italian-American from New York. He was in a position and could have coasted to a title shot ala Gerry Cooney and made a chunk of money.. . . .the name of the game is money.

He was white, well spoken, and nice looking… He wasn’t intelligent.

Mesi got beaten up the last half of the Barrett fight. A smart boxer studying that fight says “Okay, my stance is bad. My footwork looks shitty. I’ve got holes in my defense that top Heavyweights will smash through. I don’t have enough finished weapons to beat the top guys. I’m not versatile enough.” A great trainer could tell he’s not sharp enough with his jab. He’s not boxing tall enough. He’s not stepping sharply enough. He’s getting his head forward and leaning in a little squared up so he was resorting to excessive holding. Right hooks would get him against bigger and more skilled Heavyweights. You could see that vs Barrett.

When you get beaten up, you learn more than you do running over weak opponents. You don’t go to the next level in your next fight. You fight guys who aren’t quite as good as Barrett and clean up your game. Jirov had a very tough right hook. He had a tremendous amateur background. Not the guy you want next.

A minor belt holder, not a real champion.

I agree... ET may have been worse than Michael Bentt.... Bentt could hit, even if he was the worst boxer you ever saw.

Terrell never looked like a threat to do anything in his first 30 fights... He got beaten twice by a terrible Cruiserweight Johnny Gray... He lost to the ridiculous Wayne Bethea...

ET won his Title by beating 192-pound Eddie Machen who was no threat to the top Heavyweights.. ET defended against cherry picked Doug Jones and George Chuvalo... Jones was a fat Light Heavyweight... Chuvalo was a punching bag.

I was pulling for Chuvalo to get the upset over Terrell, but he weighed in as light as Ernie and had no gas... Chuvalo wasn't going to outbox anybody.. He'd have done better if he muscled up to 225 and did more roadwork and wind sprints.. I watch boxers jog along at 5 miles an hour. Maybe they're running with their trainer who's 40 or 50. No wonder they can't push the pace. There's weight rooms all over the place and they don't lift weights. They don't do sets of pushups, pullups, situps, back extensions, lunges, obliques, and bitch about the officials when they lose a fight.

Terrell lost to Ali... Then he lost to Thad Spencer, fighting a really terrible fight... He went down to Mexico and lost to Manuel Ramos which defies common sense.. You couldn't miss Ramos with a punch so how can you possibly lose?.. Ernie probably won every round like he swore he did--but you knock Ramos out.. Terrell was a lame assed hitter.

Great insight Kalan! Really! I'm glad no one mentioned the "thumbing" that "robbed" Terrell v. Ali.

The thumbing wasn't decisive... Terrell didn't have the speed, power, or defense... He was a chronic clincher... That's not the recipe that ever beat Ali... You need some strength, some speed and power, and more finesse than Terrell had.

I figured he’d beat Spencer though... He just had no strength or inside game and Thad beat his ass real good.

[sweetviolenturge]

Only the greatest heavyweight the Netherlands (formerly Holland) ever produced.

With his brother Jan being a close second, of course. Lol.

[APerno]

This usually gets the ire of those who like to live with sanctioning body cock in their mouths but . . .

Who thought Frazier was champion before he beat Ali in '71?

Who thought Tyson was champion before he beat Spinks in '88?

To me there is only one champion (lineal) and he can't be stripped of the title no matter how many times you close your eyes and say it over and over.

Terrell - Ellis never champions just someone's political convenience.

Yes I have said it before, Frazier wasn't (to all of us) champion until he fought and beat Ali in '71, many of us waited until the issue was finally settled in the ring, we didn't accept the proclamations of self appointed authorities no matter how many times they said it over and over. There seems to be enough support to suggest that even Joe Frazier felt that way, never comfortable with his title until he finally got Ali (where he wanted him) in the ring.

Sanctioning body titles are for the television and causal fan. The WBA, the NYSAC, or even the phrase "undisputed" all scream of qualifications, suggesting there is still something that needs to be proven.

Terrell is right out; of course that is just my humble opinion.

[Ambling Alp II]

For the most part I agree with you. The WBS titles don't mean anything to me. If you really know the sport, you know how phony they usually are.
The only thing that gives me pause is when a real champion does not defend the title against the best and is rightfully stripped. Spinks (who I really liked as a person) probably deserved to be stripped of the title. So did George Foreman when he was way past it and refused to fight real contenders after beating Moorer.

[Kalan]

This usually gets the ire of those who like to live with sanctioning body cock in their mouths but . . .

Who thought Frazier was champion before he beat Ali in '71?

Who thought Tyson was champion before he beat Spinks in '88?

To me there is only one champion (lineal) and he can't be stripped of the title no matter how many times you close your eyes and say it over and over.

Terrell - Ellis never champions just someone's political convenience.

Yes I have said it before, Frazier wasn't (to all of us) champion until he fought and beat Ali in '71, many of us waited until the issue was finally settled in the ring, we didn't accept the proclamations of self appointed authorities no matter how many times they said it over and over. There seems to be enough support to suggest that even Joe Frazier felt that way, never comfortable with his title until he finally got Ali (where he wanted him) in the ring.

Sanctioning body titles are for the television and causal fan. The WBA, the NYSAC, or even the phrase "undisputed" all scream of qualifications, suggesting there is still something that needs to be proven.

Terrell is right out; of course that is just my humble opinion.

Of course... The opinion was set forth in such humble fashion I was astounded.

The sanctioning orgs have nothing to do with it--they can eat shitt... It's who the PUBLIC thinks is the Champion that counts. Most everybody thought Tyson would murder Spinks -- so Spinks wasn't champ....simple as that.

Hardly anybody thought Ellis was champ.. They knew Frazier would beat the shitt out of him... Most people thought Frazier had the beating of Ali as well (I sure as Hell did, though I knew Frazier was super easy to hit). Frazier had a nice left hook and Ali ate left hooks... I didn't see how Frazier could miss if they fought, so to me he was the REAL champ.

When Foreman started knocking out Boone Kirkman and other walk-in swingers, he was the Uncrowned Champion in my book... If he ever got a chance to fight Frazier he'd tear his head right off cuz Joe's right in front of him.

Joshua is the Heavyweight Champion... For no other reason then he'll FLATTEN Wilder when they fight.