leonard Vs Hagler..who really won???

[Collins2000]

You may not have likes Leonards hit and move tactics but the fact of boxing is that at its heart it is about being able to hit and not get hit in return. Watch the fight and tell me who is hit in the face the most in this fight, Hagler or Leonard?... the answer is Hagler, he also got hit with the sharper punches. Going forward all the time doesn't win fights if you are taking your opponents punches while missing most of yours.....

Leonard was exhausted by the final bell, and hurt. Hagler looked bewildered at times by Leonard's speed, but he was certainly never hurt or wobbled - Leonard was hurt several times.

Leonard was hurt several times? Which rounds did that happen in?

And actually, the official punch stats reveal Leonard only landed thirteen more punches than Hagler in the whole fight. Don't let Leonard's pitter-patter flurries fool you - a lot of Hagler's punches went unnoticed by the untrained eye because they were to the body. Some casual observers think only head punches count.

Leonard hit Hagler with a lot more clean punches than Hagler hit him with.

That's for sure............. and that's what counts. Simply moving forward means nothing if the other guy is peppering you round after round.

[silkov]

It just seems that some people just can't credit Leonard with this win no matter what. Leonard is not really my favourite person but considering what a fighter he was it's sad really that so many people seem to dislike Leonard.

[Ambling Alp]

Hagler looked better in the Mugasbi fight than he did in many of earlier ones ( Briscoe, Geraldo, first Anterfermo, etc.)

This is ridiculous. Hagler looked better in all three, especially the Briscoe fight. That was one of his best! In the Mugabi fight, Hagler often looked painfully slow, powerless and sometimes defenseless. It was his chin, strength, conditioning and right jab which got him through the Mugabi fight.

Well, I have to disagree with you that Hagler looked better in these fights than he did against Mugabi. In the Briscoe fight he was 11 years older than the 35 year old Briscoe ( 3 years older than Hagler himself was when he fought Leonard) and had a hard time winning a decison.
In the Anterfermo fight, he didn't do much in the last several rounds against a human punchingbag and only got a draw. He was certainly better in his fight against Mugabi.

He certainly wasn't overwhelming against Geraldo either.
Watch the Lee and Hamsho fights and tell me Hagler's power hadn't gone.
Lee wasn't much more than a journeyman and Hamsho lasted the the same amount of rounds (11) in 1981 as Mugabi did in 1986.

Watch the Monroe and Scypion fights and tell me his speed and defense were still there.

Wilford Scypion was as good as, if not better than John Mugabi. Watch that fight. In terms of balance, poise, defense and style, that is Hagler at his best, and Scypion didn't last four rounds. Can you see Mugabi lasting eleven rounds against the Hagler of '83? Be honest now.

Yes I could see Mugabi lasting that long. What evidence is there that Scypion is better than Mugabi? For a few years, Mugabi was a very hard hitting,tough,and aggressive fighter. He probably fought his best fight against Hagler. If Duran could last 15 rounds against Hagler in 1983, it's not not really farfetched that Mugabi could last 11.
Why is it a legitimate excuse that Hagler was getting old when fought Leonard, when he wasn't even 33, and only 2 years older than Leonard?
Leonard was simply a lot better than Scypion,Hamsho,Briscoe, Monroe,Geraldo, Antefermo and Mugabi.
I'm not anti-Hagler like some people are. He was one of the best middleweights of all time (arguably #1). I just don't like to see people belittle Leonard's achievement because with excuses for Hagler or saying that the decision was bad.

[bollox]

It just seems that some people just can't credit Leonard with this win no matter what. Leonard is not really my favourite person but considering what a fighter he was it's sad really that so many people seem to dislike Leonard.

Silkov - there are people around who give credit where it's due regardless of their personal feelings towards that fighter. I have no problem giving Leonard credit for his early achievements and for the great fighter that he was

But surely you can understand the animosity towards the guy considering his later career antics and unfair demands (sure, you can claim the other guy should have simply said no, but they all wanted to fight him)

I simply find it very ironic that a fighter with Leonard's skill needed to resort to such tripe, and consider him one of the most selfish and destructive (to boxing) fighters of all time. He went a fair way towards conttributing to some of the utter rubbish that goes on in boxing today - division jumping at a whim, picking and choosing who to fight and when, regardless of which fighters have to stand in line even though they may have earned the right to challenhge the champ etc etc

[silkov]

Hagler looked better in the Mugasbi fight than he did in many of earlier ones ( Briscoe, Geraldo, first Anterfermo, etc.)

This is ridiculous. Hagler looked better in all three, especially the Briscoe fight. That was one of his best! In the Mugabi fight, Hagler often looked painfully slow, powerless and sometimes defenseless. It was his chin, strength, conditioning and right jab which got him through the Mugabi fight.

Well, I have to disagree with you that Hagler looked better in these fights than he did against Mugabi. In the Briscoe fight he was 11 years older than the 35 year old Briscoe ( 3 years older than Hagler himself was when he fought Leonard) and had a hard time winning a decison.
In the Anterfermo fight, he didn't do much in the last several rounds against a human punchingbag and only got a draw. He was certainly better in his fight against Mugabi.

He certainly wasn't overwhelming against Geraldo either.
Watch the Lee and Hamsho fights and tell me Hagler's power hadn't gone.
Lee wasn't much more than a journeyman and Hamsho lasted the the same amount of rounds (11) in 1981 as Mugabi did in 1986.

Watch the Monroe and Scypion fights and tell me his speed and defense were still there.

Wilford Scypion was as good as, if not better than John Mugabi. Watch that fight. In terms of balance, poise, defense and style, that is Hagler at his best, and Scypion didn't last four rounds. Can you see Mugabi lasting eleven rounds against the Hagler of '83? Be honest now.

Yes I could see Mugabi lasting that long. What evidence is there that Scypion is better than Mugabi? For a few years, Mugabi was a very hard hitting,tough,and aggressive fighter. He probably fought his best fight against Hagler. If Duran could last 15 rounds against Hagler in 1983, it's not not really farfetched that Mugabi could last 11.
Why is it a legitimate excuse that Hagler was getting old when fought Leonard, when he wasn't even 33, and only 2 years older than Leonard?
Leonard was simply a lot better than Scypion,Hamsho,Briscoe, Monroe,Geraldo, Antefermo and Mugabi.
I'm not anti-Hagler like some people are. He was one of the best middleweights of all time (arguably #1). I just don't like to see people belittle Leonard's achievement because with excuses for Hagler or saying that the decision was bad.

So what if he was only 33?.. (he was actually at least two years older!) some fighters are washed up at 24... by 87 Hagler had been a pro for almost 15 years and champion for 7 and had been in countless wars, anyone who knows anything about Hagler knows that he was past his best when he fought Leonard, this is a fact that Leonard himself has been happy to acknowledge...

[Ezzard]

I simply find it very ironic that a fighter with Leonard's skill needed to resort to such tripe, and consider him one of the most selfish and destructive (to boxing) fighters of all time. He went a fair way towards conttributing to some of the utter rubbish that goes on in boxing today - division jumping at a whim, picking and choosing who to fight and when, regardless of which fighters have to stand in line even though they may have earned the right to challenhge the champ etc etc

Leonard was my favourite boxer as a kid. He was such a gifted athlete and had heart to go with hsi skills BUT I totally agree with Bollox. Ray should have given Hagler a rematch. The fights with Duran and lalonde were a joke. He then signed to fight Hearns because he thought he was shot.

Ray was a great fighter but he left a nasty taste after the Hgaler fight.

BTW I think ray won the fight. It was close but he won by maybe 2-3 rounds but he was in trouble at the end, and in a few of the rounds he looked likely to go. He fought for the last minute-30 secs of each round and a younger Hagler would have caught up with him.

[DoubleM]

This is ridiculous. Hagler looked better in all three, especially the Briscoe fight. That was one of his best! In the Mugabi fight, Hagler often looked painfully slow, powerless and sometimes defenseless. It was his chin, strength, conditioning and right jab which got him through the Mugabi fight.

Well, I have to disagree with you that Hagler looked better in these fights than he did against Mugabi. In the Briscoe fight he was 11 years older than the 35 year old Briscoe ( 3 years older than Hagler himself was when he fought Leonard) and had a hard time winning a decison.
In the Anterfermo fight, he didn't do much in the last several rounds against a human punchingbag and only got a draw. He was certainly better in his fight against Mugabi.

He certainly wasn't overwhelming against Geraldo either.
Watch the Lee and Hamsho fights and tell me Hagler's power hadn't gone.
Lee wasn't much more than a journeyman and Hamsho lasted the the same amount of rounds (11) in 1981 as Mugabi did in 1986.

Watch the Monroe and Scypion fights and tell me his speed and defense were still there.

Wilford Scypion was as good as, if not better than John Mugabi. Watch that fight. In terms of balance, poise, defense and style, that is Hagler at his best, and Scypion didn't last four rounds. Can you see Mugabi lasting eleven rounds against the Hagler of '83? Be honest now.

Yes I could see Mugabi lasting that long. What evidence is there that Scypion is better than Mugabi? For a few years, Mugabi was a very hard hitting,tough,and aggressive fighter. He probably fought his best fight against Hagler. If Duran could last 15 rounds against Hagler in 1983, it's not not really farfetched that Mugabi could last 11.
Why is it a legitimate excuse that Hagler was getting old when fought Leonard, when he wasn't even 33, and only 2 years older than Leonard?
Leonard was simply a lot better than Scypion,Hamsho,Briscoe, Monroe,Geraldo, Antefermo and Mugabi.
I'm not anti-Hagler like some people are. He was one of the best middleweights of all time (arguably #1). I just don't like to see people belittle Leonard's achievement because with excuses for Hagler or saying that the decision was bad.

So what if he was only 33?.. (he was actually at least two years older!) some fighters are washed up at 24... by 87 Hagler had been a pro for almost 15 years and champion for 7 and had been in countless wars, anyone who knows anything about Hagler knows that he was past his best when he fought Leonard, this is a fact that Leonard himself has been happy to acknowledge...

Yep... To even suggest Hagler was anything near his prime against Leonard is ridiculous.

For your knowledge, Ambling Alp, there is a lot to suggest Scypion was every bit as good as Mugabi. Scypion had a great amateur career and before facing Hagler, had been in with a lot of tough guys and his opposition far exceeded Mugabi's.

One only has to see the films of Hagler between '77 and '83 to understand that by the time Leonard caught him, he was much slower of both hand and reflex, had became more of a stalker and had lost some of his power and overall sharpness.

[ringsider]

Hagler won the fight. He was robbed by the boxing establishment because Ray was America's baby doll.....Hagler's big mistake was agreeing to a 12 round bout, if the fight were 15 SRL would have been KO'd. Hagler's next mistake was giving away the first 4 rounds by fighting right handed. Hagler's only real advantage on Leonard was his queer ass plodding southpaw style, and his natural bigger frame. Instead of cutting off the ring Hagler chased Leonard around, following him. Hagler was the champ, Leonard played the cutesy card and stole the rounds he was given in the last 20-30 seconds on a pitty-pat flurry after losing the whole round. You don't take the MW champs title by going backwards. Hagler also landed the more crisp, cleaner, and harder blows, he just lacked flash which is what cost him the fight in my opinion.

[Ezzard]

Looking back over Leonard's fights what amazes me is the blatant favouritism of the commentators. Ray can do no wrong. Even when Ray is losing fights like Duran and Hearns the commentary is still all about Ray.

[revporl]

Leonard won it clearly, like a matador outfoxing a bull.
Classic fight, though.

[ShoeShine]

Who won the fight?? Depends on what you were looking for. If you were looking for aggresivness and power punches then you score the card for Hagler, if you were looking for pitty pat amuatuer stlye punching to steal the rounds in the end you would score your card for Sugar. I myself thought Haglar won.

[BoxBuzz]

I was just looking at the scorecards.....they havent changed since the fight.

Another Case definitively closed!

For future reference refer to File Code 8940-2-093u5903

[wolverine1]

I was just looking at the scorecards.....they havent changed since the fight.

Another Case definitively closed!

For future reference refer to File Code 8940-2-093u5903

This should read: "another mind defintely closed".

[Ambling Alp]

Hagler won the fight. He was robbed by the boxing establishment because Ray was America's baby doll.....Hagler's big mistake was agreeing to a 12 round bout, if the fight were 15 SRL would have been KO'd. Hagler's next mistake was giving away the first 4 rounds by fighting right handed. Hagler's only real advantage on Leonard was his queer ass plodding southpaw style, and his natural bigger frame. Instead of cutting off the ring Hagler chased Leonard around, following him. Hagler was the champ, Leonard played the cutesy card and stole the rounds he was given in the last 20-30 seconds on a pitty-pat flurry after losing the whole round. You don't take the MW champs title by going backwards. Hagler also landed the more crisp, cleaner, and harder blows, he just lacked flash which is what cost him the fight in my opinion.

So you admit that Hagler gave away the first 4 rounds, yet he was still robbed? For him to win the fight after losing the first 4 rounds, he would have had to have won at least 7 out of the last 8 rounds. Are you seriously saying that you think Hagler won 7 out of the last 8 rounds?

[Syntax Error]

Who won the fight?? Depends on what you were looking for. If you were looking for aggresivness and power punches then you score the card for Hagler, if you were looking for pitty pat amuatuer stlye punching to steal the rounds in the end you would score your card for Sugar. I myself thought Haglar won.

I bet you wouldn't want Leonard to hit you?

A fighter shouldn't be penalised for not punching hard, otherwise, Willie Pep & Muhammad Ali would never have won a decision in their careers.

[The Great John L]

It just seems that some people just can't credit Leonard with this win no matter what. Leonard is not really my favourite person but considering what a fighter he was it's sad really that so many people seem to dislike Leonard.

Actually I rather licked SRL until after the Hagler fight. I remember his in studio comment several days after the fight about Hagler wanting a rematch was something like "when he admits that I kicked his ass then he can have a rematch". Regardless of who you think won the fight, neither fighter could credibly claim that they kicked anybody's ass that night. SRL, while very personable at times could also be very arrogant and petty. And I think arrogance peaked after his close dec over Hagler.

[silkov]

It just seems that some people just can't credit Leonard with this win no matter what. Leonard is not really my favourite person but considering what a fighter he was it's sad really that so many people seem to dislike Leonard.

Actually I rather licked SRL until after the Hagler fight. I remember his in studio comment several days after the fight about Hagler wanting a rematch was something like "when he admits that I kicked his ass then he can have a rematch". Regardless of who you think won the fight, neither fighter could credibly claim that they kicked anybody's ass that night. SRL, while very personable at times could also be very arrogant and petty. And I think arrogance peaked after his close dec over Hagler.

Yeah I agree it was ungracious of Leonard to say that, but then Hagler wasn't exactly a gracious loser and I think Leonard was probably peeved that his victory was soured by many disputing the verdict....

[The Great John L]

It just seems that some people just can't credit Leonard with this win no matter what. Leonard is not really my favourite person but considering what a fighter he was it's sad really that so many people seem to dislike Leonard.

Actually I rather licked SRL until after the Hagler fight. I remember his in studio comment several days after the fight about Hagler wanting a rematch was something like "when he admits that I kicked his ass then he can have a rematch". Regardless of who you think won the fight, neither fighter could credibly claim that they kicked anybody's ass that night. SRL, while very personable at times could also be very arrogant and petty. And I think arrogance peaked after his close dec over Hagler.

Yeah I agree it was ungracious of Leonard to say that, but then Hagler wasn't exactly a gracious loser and I think Leonard was probably peeved that his victory was soured by many disputing the verdict....

Agreed about the disputed verdict, but he certainly could have been a bit more gracious, especially since we all KNEW he wouldn't give Hagler a rematch regardless of what was said or done by either party.

[BoxBuzz]

I was just looking at the scorecards.....they havent changed since the fight.

Another Case definitively closed!

For future reference refer to File Code 8940-2-093u5903

This should read: "another mind defintely closed".

Not so, my monosylabic friend! If I see any evidence that those score cards have changed I shall be the first one to herald in the news of Marvin's W for the record! Until then it remains 2 judges to 1 in Ray's favor on that day.

But let me know if that changes.

[wolverine1]

"Monosyallabic", huh?........what I do in my own time is my own business.

[ShoeShine]

Who won the fight?? Depends on what you were looking for. If you were looking for aggresivness and power punches then you score the card for Hagler, if you were looking for pitty pat amuatuer stlye punching to steal the rounds in the end you would score your card for Sugar. I myself thought Haglar won.

I bet you wouldn't want Leonard to hit you?

A fighter shouldn't be penalised for not punching hard, otherwise, Willie Pep & Muhammad Ali would never have won a decision in their careers.

I bet u wouldnt want Leonard to hit you either, that wasnt my point..I merely was stating that Leonard stole rounds with pitty pat flurries of punches at the end of the rounds to steal the rounds..they call that "Shoeshine" in the amuatuers . Im not sure if your familair with it. I never said Sugar Ray couldnt hit hard and I definantly never said Ali couldnt hit hard so you missed the point I was making my friend.

[silkov]

Who won the fight?? Depends on what you were looking for. If you were looking for aggresivness and power punches then you score the card for Hagler, if you were looking for pitty pat amuatuer stlye punching to steal the rounds in the end you would score your card for Sugar. I myself thought Haglar won.

I bet you wouldn't want Leonard to hit you?

A fighter shouldn't be penalised for not punching hard, otherwise, Willie Pep & Muhammad Ali would never have won a decision in their careers.

I bet u wouldnt want Leonard to hit you either, that wasnt my point..I merely was stating that Leonard stole rounds with pitty pat flurries of punches at the end of the rounds to steal the rounds..they call that "Shoeshine" in the amuatuers . Im not sure if your familair with it. I never said Sugar Ray couldnt hit hard and I definantly never said Ali couldnt hit hard so you missed the point I was making my friend.

But 'stealing' rounds is part of boxing, it is itself part of the art of boxing and the fact that Leonard did this is testiment to how he outboxed Hagler. Hagler was outboxed and outthought.

[ShoeShine]

I bet you wouldn't want Leonard to hit you?

A fighter shouldn't be penalised for not punching hard, otherwise, Willie Pep & Muhammad Ali would never have won a decision in their careers.

I bet u wouldnt want Leonard to hit you either, that wasnt my point..I merely was stating that Leonard stole rounds with pitty pat flurries of punches at the end of the rounds to steal the rounds..they call that "Shoeshine" in the amuatuers . Im not sure if your familair with it. I never said Sugar Ray couldnt hit hard and I definantly never said Ali couldnt hit hard so you missed the point I was making my friend.

But 'stealing' rounds is part of boxing, it is itself part of the art of boxing and the fact that Leonard did this is testiment to how he outboxed Hagler. Hagler was outboxed and outthought.

I agree in some peoples eyes that tactic can be viewed as outboxing an opponent..but in other peoples eyes that can be viewed as an amuatuerish style of fighting ..or maybe some people thought Hagler won those very same rounds with his aggressive style and harder punches landed. So basically it depends on how you view a fight. I have nothing against Leonard I just feel like Haglar won the fight.

[Collins2000]

I bet u wouldnt want Leonard to hit you either, that wasnt my point..I merely was stating that Leonard stole rounds with pitty pat flurries of punches at the end of the rounds to steal the rounds..they call that "Shoeshine" in the amuatuers . Im not sure if your familair with it. I never said Sugar Ray couldnt hit hard and I definantly never said Ali couldnt hit hard so you missed the point I was making my friend.

But 'stealing' rounds is part of boxing, it is itself part of the art of boxing and the fact that Leonard did this is testiment to how he outboxed Hagler. Hagler was outboxed and outthought.

I agree in some peoples eyes that tactic can be viewed as outboxing an opponent..but in other peoples eyes that can be viewed as an amuatuerish style of fighting ..or maybe some people thought Hagler won those very same rounds with his aggressive style and harder punches landed. So basically it depends on how you view a fight. I have nothing against Leonard I just feel like Haglar won the fight.

Which rounds exactly did you have Hagler winning?

[silkov]

I bet u wouldnt want Leonard to hit you either, that wasnt my point..I merely was stating that Leonard stole rounds with pitty pat flurries of punches at the end of the rounds to steal the rounds..they call that "Shoeshine" in the amuatuers . Im not sure if your familair with it. I never said Sugar Ray couldnt hit hard and I definantly never said Ali couldnt hit hard so you missed the point I was making my friend.

But 'stealing' rounds is part of boxing, it is itself part of the art of boxing and the fact that Leonard did this is testiment to how he outboxed Hagler. Hagler was outboxed and outthought.

I agree in some peoples eyes that tactic can be viewed as outboxing an opponent..but in other peoples eyes that can be viewed as an amuatuerish style of fighting ..or maybe some people thought Hagler won those very same rounds with his aggressive style and harder punches landed. So basically it depends on how you view a fight. I have nothing against Leonard I just feel like Haglar won the fight.

Leonard 'stole' some of the rounds but a lot of the others he won clearly... he definately won about 4 or 5 of the first 6 rounds and after that Hagler was always playing catchup.