KOTV last night: Lennox- Lewis vs. Weaver

[nobby_nobbins]

Lewis was woefully unprepared against Rahman and McCall and he paid the price for that complacency. When he was motivated and trained properly for them, they were not even competitive.

[jamesmcdonnell]

He was prepared against McCall, but he still had serious flaws, and didn't Eddie Futch coach McCall for that fight - he told him to throw his own right over Lewis' jab.

Against Rahman however, he definitely prepared badly, not enough time at altitude and too busy pissing around filming for Ocean's 11. He was whupping Rahman, then he ran out of gas and the arse fell out of it.

[bigjack]

He was prepared against McCall, but he still had serious flaws, and didn't Eddie Futch coach McCall for that fight - he told him to throw his own right over Lewis' jab.

Against Rahman however, he definitely prepared badly, not enough time at altitude and too busy pissing around filming for Ocean's 11. He was whupping Rahman, then he ran out of gas and the arse fell out of it.

I think it was manny steward who coached him against Lewis

[orbtastic]

It was

[Counter-puncher]

He was prepared against McCall, but he still had serious flaws, and didn't Eddie Futch coach McCall for that fight - he told him to throw his own right over Lewis' jab.

Against Rahman however, he definitely prepared badly, not enough time at altitude and too busy pissing around filming for Ocean's 11. He was whupping Rahman, then he ran out of gas and the arse fell out of it.

I think it was manny steward who coached him against Lewis

Steward saw the opportunity for that right hand a mile off

[Counter-puncher]

Manny S in 'throw the right hand' shocker

[mike john]

It may not have been Lewis' fault, but he fought the good names when they were shot. Saying that proved he was the best of his generation is like saying Calzaghe proved himself better than Hopkins and Jones with his legend killing tour.

Then again, everyone reaches their peak at the same time, so a lot will be conjecture. He may well have beaten them, we will never know.

Either way, the great names of the division wouldn't ever get banged out by Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman. The fact he came back and beat them is more of a sad indication that he shouldn't have lost to them in the first place.

A really good heavyweight, but not at the top table I don't think

holyfield was past his best, he wasnt shot.

you state lewis' record suffers because the big names he faced were past their best.
you then bring up lewis' loss to mccall as further damning evidence, yet lewis had not even reached his best at that point

[jamesmcdonnell]

He was prepared against McCall, but he still had serious flaws, and didn't Eddie Futch coach McCall for that fight - he told him to throw his own right over Lewis' jab.

Against Rahman however, he definitely prepared badly, not enough time at altitude and too busy pissing around filming for Ocean's 11. He was whupping Rahman, then he ran out of gas and the arse fell out of it.

I think it was manny steward who coached him against Lewis

Steward saw the opportunity for that right hand a mile off

Knew it was one of the two.

[stevedoc]

Razorko

I never said lewis had a great chin,i said it was very good,and i think you'll find tyson did duck lewis and paid him step aside money,check it out.As for the DQ losses,well that's a laugh,your the first person i have ever heard say lewis fouled against those two,it's heavyweight boxing for christs sake,both bruno and tyson were masters at the art of foul play.Have you not watched the mercer fight,lewis showed real grit in that one and fought the wrong fight and won.As for vitali going on to ko lewis,please don't start that again,go on facts not what ifs and maybes,you just don't like lewis do you ?,even so,don't try to say he was chinny and had no heart,how many other heavies beat every man they fought ?,coming back to stop the 2 opponents who beat him shows real guts and heart and determination.

Yep my mistake, I disagree with the very good part though. If you look through his career, he was shaken up by Briggs, Bruno, Mavrovic, Klitshcko and Tucker. Knocked down by Akiwande, and knocked out by Rahman and McCall. With the exception of Bruno, and perhaps Klitschko (debatable) none of these fighters were world class punchers.

Yep I did a bit of research, and you're right Tyson did pay Lewis to step aside. But to be honest, Tyson was so shot at that point that even if Lewis did beat Tyson a few years earlier, it would of been no accomplishment. Frans Botha was even outboxing Tyson at that stage of his career for christ sake! Lewis knocking out Tyson when he did, is comparable to Holmes stopping Ali, or Norris beating Leonard.

The Mercer fight was a good some what competitive fight, but hardly a fight where Lewis showed heart. He was outmuscled and out gunned for the majority of it. Infact I scored it for Mercer 7-3. Lewis held on for dear life for the most part, a feat which he will repeat when he fought Tua and later Tyson.

Whether people like it or not, holding your opponents head into position, then punching with your other hand is an illegal move, and Lewis did this twice. Lewis should of at least been penalised. Bruno and Grant should of also been granted time to recover.

I respect Lewis for what he has done in the ring, but I also tell it how it is, Lewis doesnt deserve to be in the top 10 let alone top 15. If Lewis was American, I will garantee that the Brits wouldn't be hyping him up as much.

@razor ko .... i agree completely .the only bit i would change is that i think americans rate lewis higher than brits we brits tend to understand that tyson was a shadow of himself when lewis done him

[ERIC GUY]

He was prepared against McCall, but he still had serious flaws, and didn't Eddie Futch coach McCall for that fight - he told him to throw his own right over Lewis' jab.

Against Rahman however, he definitely prepared badly, not enough time at altitude and too busy pissing around filming for Ocean's 11. He was whupping Rahman, then he ran out of gas and the arse fell out of it.

lennox's sparring partner was garing lane, hardly prepared, as I was there, and I told him about this, he said pepe knows best, hmm, yeah right afterwards,,,his trust in others ,,,
and manny steward trained mccall,

[bigjack]

He was prepared against McCall, but he still had serious flaws, and didn't Eddie Futch coach McCall for that fight - he told him to throw his own right over Lewis' jab.

Against Rahman however, he definitely prepared badly, not enough time at altitude and too busy pissing around filming for Ocean's 11. He was whupping Rahman, then he ran out of gas and the arse fell out of it.

lennox's sparring partner was garing lane, hardly prepared, as I was there, and I told him about this, he said pepe knows best, hmm, yeah right afterwards,,,his trust in others ,,,
and manny steward trained mccall,

I believe after the first round Pepe told Lewis to 'forget everything i told you,just go out and ko this bum',no wonder he walked onto one.Pepe was quickly dismissed afterwards.

[ERIC GUY]

He was prepared against McCall, but he still had serious flaws, and didn't Eddie Futch coach McCall for that fight - he told him to throw his own right over Lewis' jab.

Against Rahman however, he definitely prepared badly, not enough time at altitude and too busy pissing around filming for Ocean's 11. He was whupping Rahman, then he ran out of gas and the arse fell out of it.

lennox's sparring partner was garing lane, hardly prepared, as I was there, and I told him about this, he said pepe knows best, hmm, yeah right afterwards,,,his trust in others ,,,
and manny steward trained mccall,

I believe after the first round Pepe told Lewis to 'forget everything i told you,just go out and ko this bum',no wonder he walked onto one.Pepe was quickly dismissed afterwards.

You believed right

[thepocketrocket]

It may not have been Lewis' fault, but he fought the good names when they were shot. Saying that proved he was the best of his generation is like saying Calzaghe proved himself better than Hopkins and Jones with his legend killing tour.

Then again, everyone reaches their peak at the same time, so a lot will be conjecture. He may well have beaten them, we will never know.

Either way, the great names of the division wouldn't ever get banged out by Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman. The fact he came back and beat them is more of a sad indication that he shouldn't have lost to them in the first place.

A really good heavyweight, but not at the top table I don't think

holyfield was past his best, he wasnt shot.

you state lewis' record suffers because the big names he faced were past their best.
you then bring up lewis' loss to mccall as further damning evidence, yet lewis had not even reached his best at that point

He was a big enough name and a world champion...this wasn't a novice mistake.

My point is that the truly great names would not have been knocked out by McCall or Rahman. That;s what make him top ten and not top 3-5

[Karl Jade]

So a couple of moments of arrogance, one being very early in his career deny him top 5 status? Nonsense.

[thepocketrocket]

So a couple of moments of arrogance, one being very early in his career deny him top 5 status? Nonsense.

Yes...they do. Because the great names don't have that happen to them.

The Lewis ultras seem to think that because he was underprepared, the defeats don't count. It is actually amusing.

Guy gets banged out by two fringe contenders, it has a real negative effect on his legacy...it is simple enough

[SNG]

So he doesn't make 1-5 but makes 6-10 and you don't count him as a great name? Eh?

[Wrists]

Ali and Holmes for me in their primes beat lewis. Other than that I would favour lewis over anyone else

Great great fighter he really was.

Some of his later career performances were a thing if beauty

[thepocketrocket]

So he doesn't make 1-5 but makes 6-10 and you don't count him as a great name? Eh?

No need to quibble over words. I mean the top table. If you count the top ten as the top table, that is a big bloody table!

[SNG]

So he doesn't make 1-5 but makes 6-10 and you don't count him as a great name? Eh?

No need to quibble over words. I mean the top table. If you count the top ten as the top table, that is a big bloody table!

Fair enough, but I do. I think of the top ten In a division as the big boys, and there are some great fighters filling up the 30/40 spaces behind them too. Lewis was a great fighter, he just was. His record backs that up, and so does his obvious ability. If you think of a a smaller table then fine, but I don't think being 6-10 in a heavyweight division that's 130 years old with thousands of fighters in it as being bad going, let's not forget the lack of genuine too level fighters for him to prove himself against in his pomp, out of the other top ten I give Lewis a chance against any of them at his best.

Out if curiosity, where do you put Tyson at this ten seat table? He's waiting to be seated at mine.

[thepocketrocket]

So he doesn't make 1-5 but makes 6-10 and you don't count him as a great name? Eh?

No need to quibble over words. I mean the top table. If you count the top ten as the top table, that is a big bloody table!

Fair enough, but I do. I think of the top ten In a division as the big boys, and there are some great fighters filling up the 30/40 spaces behind them too. Lewis was a great fighter, he just was. His record backs that up, and so does his obvious ability. If you think of a a smaller table then fine, but I don't think being 6-10 in a heavyweight division that's 130 years old with thousands of fighters in it as being bad going, let's not forget the lack of genuine too level fighters for him to prove himself against in his pomp, out of the other top ten I give Lewis a chance against any of them at his best.

Out if curiosity, where do you put Tyson at this ten seat table? He's waiting to be seated at mine.

It is really hard with Tyson. You could tell there was something special, but I'm not sure bashing up the lost generation really places you in the top ten.

In these thing you have to look at the 'body of work'. I have to veer away from reports from fighters of yesteryear, as proper fans like us like to make our own minds up. If I don't see some guy in the flesh, then how can I make a REAL judgement call?

From a body of work perspective, and a gut instinct (his inability to slip a jab, even in the early days) I, like you think Tyson is waiting to be seated at the top ten table

[Rocky Balboa]

I disagree, Tyson had a rock solid chin and a heart of a Lion. And he proved it when going toe to toe with Ruddock, Bruno etc.

Tyson was never sparked by a single shot in any of his losses. And in each of his losses he went out on his shield.

Lewis on the other hand never got to show us his fighting heart, as when the going got tough he found himself on the deck.

He showed it against Ray Mercer

Lewis had a very good chin,checkout the youtube video,i think it's called 'lewis had an iron chin',anyway as other posters have said,he proved his heart and toughness many times,have you not watched many Lewis fights,he came from behind to beat,Bruno,Vitali Klit,had a very tough time with mason,briggs.He ran straight at Micheal Grant,a huge man and big puncher and destroyed him,he took big punches from him and shook them off.I don't think anyone who watched Lewis fight could ever question his heart and fighting pride,he never avoided any man,unlike Tyson who paid off Lewis.Lewis got hit by a sledghammer from Rahman and couldn't get up in time,that would have ko'd many fighters.A fully switched on Lewis was a very,very difficult man to beat,ask everyone of his opponents,who he beat by the way.

The debate about "Tyson avoiding Lewis, Lewis avoiding Tyson", has been done to death.
However, the nearest the fight got to being made was after Tyson beat Bruno in March 96'.
In his book, "No Baloney", Frank Maloney states, "An offer of $10,000,000 was laid on the table from Don King for Lewis to face Tyson in the summer of 1996. $10,000,000 was by far the largest offer Lewis had ever received for any fight (to date). When I asked Lennox about it & showed him the formal offer, he didn't want to know. Lennox was receiving nowhere near that sum for the fights he was having, so his disinterest was something that shocked me"..

[Boxerbeetle]

The debate about "Tyson avoiding Lewis, Lewis avoiding Tyson", has been done to death.
However, the nearest the fight got to being made was after Tyson beat Bruno in March 96'.
In his book, "No Baloney", Frank Maloney states, "An offer of $10,000,000 was laid on the table from Don King for Lewis to face Tyson in the summer of 1996. $10,000,000 was by far the largest offer Lewis had ever received for any fight (to date). When I asked Lennox about it & showed him the formal offer, he didn't want to know. Lennox was receiving nowhere near that sum for the fights he was having, so his disinterest was something that shocked me"..

Lewis was very wise in staying well away from King, history has proved this. Presumably that offer came with many options on Lewis, and he probably wouldn't have been paid anywhere near $10 million in the end.

[Rocky Balboa]

The debate about "Tyson avoiding Lewis, Lewis avoiding Tyson", has been done to death.
However, the nearest the fight got to being made was after Tyson beat Bruno in March 96'.
In his book, "No Baloney", Frank Maloney states, "An offer of $10,000,000 was laid on the table from Don King for Lewis to face Tyson in the summer of 1996. $10,000,000 was by far the largest offer Lewis had ever received for any fight (to date). When I asked Lennox about it & showed him the formal offer, he didn't want to know. Lennox was receiving nowhere near that sum for the fights he was having, so his disinterest was something that shocked me"..

Lewis was very wise in staying well away from King, history has proved this. Presumably that offer came with many options on Lewis, and he probably wouldn't have been paid anywhere near $10 million in the end.

Perhaps, but thats still the closest the fight ever got to actually happening. Maloney is very honest in the book...

[SNG]

The debate about "Tyson avoiding Lewis, Lewis avoiding Tyson", has been done to death.
However, the nearest the fight got to being made was after Tyson beat Bruno in March 96'.
In his book, "No Baloney", Frank Maloney states, "An offer of $10,000,000 was laid on the table from Don King for Lewis to face Tyson in the summer of 1996. $10,000,000 was by far the largest offer Lewis had ever received for any fight (to date). When I asked Lennox about it & showed him the formal offer, he didn't want to know. Lennox was receiving nowhere near that sum for the fights he was having, so his disinterest was something that shocked me"..

Lewis was very wise in staying well away from King, history has proved this. Presumably that offer came with many options on Lewis, and he probably wouldn't have been paid anywhere near $10 million in the end.

Perhaps, but thats still the closest the fight ever got to actually happening. Maloney is very honest in the book...

Still? I think they got a little closer than that

[thepocketrocket]

Still? I think they got a little closer than that [/quote]


He means a real fight