What if? Foreman vs Frazier - March 8 1971

[evrenb]

What would have happened?

Frazier was at peak or very near too. It was the night of his greatest performace in the biggest fight in history.
Foreman was around 20 months from when he actually defeated Frazier so not as polished.

eb

[Duch]

I'd bet on Foreman anytime against Frazier

[yancey]

What would have happened?

Frazier was at peak or very near too. It was the night of his greatest performace in the biggest fight in history.
Foreman was around 20 months from when he actually defeated Frazier so not as polished.

eb

Since you are asking based upon where both fighters were on 3/8/71, I pick Frazier to overcome the terrible style disadvantage, survive any early damage, and take out George in 9. In 1971, as you say, Frazier was near peak and Foreman was still some distance from his peak. Foreman had stamina problems and Frazier would exploit that.

If it was 3/8/71 Frazier going against 1/22/73 Foreman, I would give Joe maybe a 35-40% chance of overcoming the terrible style matchup and ultimately winning. 1973 Foreman was at his peak and further along than the 1971 version.

If it was the well past prime, 1/22/73 Frazier going against 1/22/73 Foreman, I give Joe maybe a 15% chance. In 1973, Frazier was nowhere near what he was in 1969-70, plus he took Foreman lightly and was undertrained.

One thing I would like to point out about the Jamaica fight. Foreman got away with pushing and shoving to keep Joe at distance. This tactic was designed by Moore and Sadler prior to the fight. Referee Mercante should have stopped that tactic right away. In order to ultimately prevail against Foreman, Frazier HAS to get inside Foreman's punching radius, stay tight to George's body and ultimately win by attrition. Who knows what an early big left hook from Joe would have done to Foreman's psyche that night? Foreman admitted he was scared in the early going that night. But Frazier had zero chance to get to the inside because of the shoving and positioning from Foreman.

My thoughts on the various fight scenarios assume that the pushing-shoving crap gets immediately stopped.

[tagjohnson]

Why should the shoving have been stopped? Where in boxing's rules does it forbid it? Why not forbid the uppercuts that Foreman creamed Frazier with? BTW Foreman would have beat Frazier if they had fought in third grade. Frazier was literally custom made for Foreman.

[yancey]

Why should the shoving have been stopped? Where in boxing's rules does it forbid it? Why not forbid the uppercuts that Foreman creamed Frazier with? BTW Foreman would have beat Frazier if they had fought in third grade. Frazier was literally custom made for Foreman.

It is all so black and white, isn't it?

Have a nice, nice day in your simplistic little simpleton world.

[evrenb]

What would have happened?

Frazier was at peak or very near too. It was the night of his greatest performace in the biggest fight in history.
Foreman was around 20 months from when he actually defeated Frazier so not as polished.

eb

Since you are asking based upon where both fighters were on 3/8/71, I pick Frazier to overcome the terrible style disadvantage, survive any early damage, and take out George in 9. In 1971, as you say, Frazier was near peak and Foreman was still some distance from his peak. Foreman had stamina problems and Frazier would exploit that.

If it was 3/8/71 Frazier going against 1/22/73 Foreman, I would give Joe maybe a 35-40% chance of overcoming the terrible style matchup and ultimately winning. 1973 Foreman was at his peak and further along than the 1971 version.

If it was the well past prime, 1/22/73 Frazier going against 1/22/73 Foreman, I give Joe maybe a 15% chance. In 1973, Frazier was nowhere near what he was in 1969-70, plus he took Foreman lightly and was undertrained.

One thing I would like to point out about the Jamaica fight. Foreman got away with pushing and shoving to keep Joe at distance. This tactic was designed by Moore and Sadler prior to the fight. Referee Mercante should have stopped that tactic right away. In order to ultimately prevail against Foreman, Frazier HAS to get inside Foreman's punching radius, stay tight to George's body and ultimately win by attrition. Who knows what an early big left hook from Joe would have done to Foreman's psyche that night? Foreman admitted he was scared in the early going that night. But Frazier had zero chance to get to the inside because of the shoving and positioning from Foreman.

My thoughts on the various fight scenarios assume that the pushing-shoving crap gets immediately stopped.

I think this is a fair and concise view of the outcome...

[elmersalsa]

I always believed that that great Smokin Joe of circa 1968-71 could have taken any great heavyweight in history. That drubbing that the great George Foreman did to Smoking Joe was a fluke in my opinion. That was Joe way past his prime. After that brutal fight with the great Muhammad Ali, he was never the same. He left it all in that fight. He was never going to come back to that same level of emotions.

Foreman was a great champion. No doubt about that. But did he really beat Frazier in his prime?

[yancey]

I always believed that that great Smokin Joe of circa 1968-71 could have taken any great heavyweight in history. That drubbing that the great George Foreman did to Smoking Joe was a fluke in my opinion. That was Joe way past his prime. After that brutal fight with the great Muhammad Ali, he was never the same. He left it all in that fight. He was never going to come back to that same level of emotions.

Foreman was a great champion. No doubt about that. But did he really beat Frazier in his prime?

You are 100% correct in what you say.

Frazier did leave it all in the FOTC. Foreman did not get the real Joe and even George has said that.

Frazier at his peak could have taken anyone.

But some guys see a devastating result like what happened in Jamaica and automatically think that means it forever would be the same.

The style matchup against Foreman is a bad one, but prime Joe had a viable chance to overcome it.

As for the second Foreman fight, forget it. Joe was a completely shot fighter.

[evrenb]

Its funny how Joe became 'washed up' so quickly into his career...shocking actually. Considering Foreman fought into the late 1990's and was not washed up.
I agree Frazier had a viable chance against any Heavy in history. I do pick others over him though.

[yancey]

Its funny how Joe became 'washed up' so quickly into his career...shocking actually. Considering Foreman fought into the late 1990's and was not washed up.
I agree Frazier had a viable chance against any Heavy in history. I do pick others over him though.

Joe left everything on the night of 3/8/71. His emotional edge was gone. Ali was the mountain he had been gearing up to climb ever since he turned pro.

He climbed it and his joy of combat (also his edge) was gone. Having less physical skills than others, he absolutely had to be emotionally keen to compete at the very top levels.

Thereafter boxing became a business and his music his joy.

He should have retired post-FOTC. Durham advised him to do so.

[evrenb]

He still had decent wins post 71 but was never quite the same again. I like his fights against daniels, stander and quarry 2 i think he looked awesome. His attack of Daniels along the ropes in round 4 is amazing. Miss you smoke :-(

[yancey]

He still had decent wins post 71 but was never quite the same again. I like his fights against daniels, stander and quarry 2 i think he looked awesome. His attack of Daniels along the ropes in round 4 is amazing. Miss you smoke :-(

Yes, I miss Smoke too. What a character and sportsman.

Regarding the Daniels fight, he really had trouble finishing Daniels. Prime Joe would have put away Daniels cleanly in 2. Daniels was courageous, but way overmatched.

Regarding the Stander fight, Joe definitely got staggered early before taking control. Even with control, he seemed to me to be hesitant to go in and finish his man. Seemed content to box a bit rather than swarm. Maybe he got instructions from Yank to do that or else he was giving the folks in Omaha a bit of a show, but the old, relentless Joe punches Stander's ticket and punches it good.

Quarry II was a good fight, but both Jerry and Joe were clearly diminished from what they were five years earlier. Joe did come with a good effort as it was felt that the loser of the fight was finished.

Evrenb, you're an okay guy.

Sorry I blew my top with you several times, I just get a little bit intense sometimes when it comes to Frazier and Ali.

[evrenb]

Hey they are still dividing opinion to this day!! I love Joe , George and Ali...a magical trio in a magical era...never to be repeated again. Frazier and Hagler are the two most blue collar, no bull fighters in history. I love Joe's self effacing manner in interviews. I remember in an interview Harry Carpenter praised Joes defeat of Ali and Joe was like '...aahh well' as if...it was nothin'. He didnt like the BS the way Ali did. He had a job to do, he was paid to do the job...he done it well and then went home.....played with the kids, walked the dog, made love to his wife..played his guitar...smoked his pipe then went bed...counted his money in the morning...

[Ambling Alp II]

Frazier and Hagler were no bull? They were two of the biggest excuse makers in the history of the sport.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I'd bet on Foreman anytime against Frazier

x2

[Ambling Alp II]

I always believed that that great Smokin Joe of circa 1968-71 could have taken any great heavyweight in history. That drubbing that the great George Foreman did to Smoking Joe was a fluke in my opinion. That was Joe way past his prime. After that brutal fight with the great Muhammad Ali, he was never the same. He left it all in that fight. He was never going to come back to that same level of emotions.

Foreman was a great champion. No doubt about that. But did he really beat Frazier in his prime?

I my regret doing this, but I am going to respond to elmer. Yes he did beat Frazier in his prime. Frazier wasn't old. He just turned 29. He had only been in 29 fights, so he wasn't shop down by a lot of fights. No reason at all that he he left it all after the first Ali fight. Fighters older and shopworn than him don't get a free pass and neither should he.
There are a few other heavyweights who could have accomplished what he did in from 1968-1971.
He was definitely in his prime when he got crushed by Foreman.

[evrenb]

What examples of Frazier can you give? Alp.

[misterpunch]

frazier was far from his peak - the fire was out, the smoke was barely there at all - I loved joe frazier. a real sporting giant.

[yancey]

frazier was far from his peak - the fire was out, the smoke was barely there at all - I loved joe frazier. a real sporting giant.

You are exactly right in every word you say.

It is impossible for me to take serious anyone who actually thinks that Joe Frazier was still at his peak for the first Foreman fight.

Foreman himself knows and says that the Frazier he faced was not the Frazier of earlier years.

[Heartbreak_Kid79]

Frazier was 29 when he lost the title to George... is that past his peak?

Big George just seemed to have Joe's number. Joe couldn't handle his power

[yancey]

Frazier was 29 when he lost the title to George... is that past his peak?

Big George just seemed to have Joe's number. Joe couldn't handle his power

It is more complicated than just chronological age.

This does get tiresome.

[Tuan_Jim]

Frazier was 29 when he lost the title to George... is that past his peak?

Big George just seemed to have Joe's number. Joe couldn't handle his power

This is facile reasoning.

You're not in any way accounting for miles on the clock. You're simply listing a man's age. Incredibly naive.

How old was Benitez when he was shot? He was much younger than 29.

[Ambling Alp II]

But that is just it; Frazier didn't have many "miles on the dock". He had a grand total of just 29 fights before the Foreman fight. It's not like he was some guy from the 1930s fighting a couple of times a month.

You have to have a real reason for the "Past his Prime" excuse to be valid. All we hear about is he lost his drive gave it all against Ali or some crap like that.

[Ambling Alp II]

What examples of Frazier can you give? Alp.

Who else could have accomplished what Frazier did from 1968-1971?

For example, Louis, Holmes, Holyfield, and Lewis would have.

[evrenb]

I mean you said he was an excuse maker???