KOTV last night: Lennox- Lewis vs. Weaver

[Tuan_Jim]

Witherspoon was cursed to labour under Don King for pittance and then later be blackballed for his defection and lawsuit.

Buster Douglas broke up Don King's heavyweight monopoly and opened the door for Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis, Moorer et al to be built up slowly, nurtured and sensibly matched. In Spoon's day King threw everyone in with everyone, and billed them for the pleasure.

Lennox showed up flabby several times for fights, he didn't hold a punch well and didn't like a pace. I doubt he escapes the 80s scene with the same impressive stats he did in the 90s/00s.

[DavidPayne]

Mmmm. not sure I place the 80s pack in the positive light you do. True Witherspoon and Holmes are two who would have been great fights for Lewis but to suggest Lewis is only a mere equal with the forgotten generation of Biggs, Weaver, Tate, Smith and co is not one I share.

Lewis is a fight for anyone and likely survives Foreman and Liston, loses a squeaky one to Holmes and Ali, scrapes by Holy, beats Bowe and a handful for prime Mike too.

[Tuan_Jim]

There wasn't just Weaver and Biggs. There was Thomas who KOd Weaver and easily beat the Spoon who beat the great Holmes and got jobbed. There was Tubbs who handled Bowe without breaking a sweat. Page, Dokes, Coetzee, Spoon, Thomas, et al, they don't just collapse like a grant or give up like a Tua.

A lot of great jabbers in the 80s, and Lewis was outjabbed by three men who weren't great jabbers (Bruno, Mercer, Rahman I). He had his hands full the second time round with a near 40 year old Holyfield. He blacked out after 12 at a pace versus a man in the early throes of a wasting disease (Mavrovic). I know I am painting Lewis in the worst light here, and he was a man of many great qualities with an awesome arsenal of punches, but when you consider his weak points and try to picture him in gruelling 15 rd fights against men with great chins, great jabs and fearless demeanours you are placing him in a world away from Grant, Rahman, Tua, Golota, Briggs et al.

[DavidPayne]

No, but they also often turned up out of shape and ill-focussed too. Easy to pick their best qualities and focus on Lewis weaknesses.

[RazorKO]

Razorko

I never said lewis had a great chin,i said it was very good,and i think you'll find tyson did duck lewis and paid him step aside money,check it out.As for the DQ losses,well that's a laugh,your the first person i have ever heard say lewis fouled against those two,it's heavyweight boxing for christs sake,both bruno and tyson were masters at the art of foul play.Have you not watched the mercer fight,lewis showed real grit in that one and fought the wrong fight and won.As for vitali going on to ko lewis,please don't start that again,go on facts not what ifs and maybes,you just don't like lewis do you ?,even so,don't try to say he was chinny and had no heart,how many other heavies beat every man they fought ?,coming back to stop the 2 opponents who beat him shows real guts and heart and determination.

Yep my mistake, I disagree with the very good part though. If you look through his career, he was shaken up by Briggs, Bruno, Mavrovic, Klitshcko and Tucker. Knocked down by Akiwande, and knocked out by Rahman and McCall. With the exception of Bruno, and perhaps Klitschko (debatable) none of these fighters were world class punchers.

Yep I did a bit of research, and you're right Tyson did pay Lewis to step aside. But to be honest, Tyson was so shot at that point that even if Lewis did beat Tyson a few years earlier, it would of been no accomplishment. Frans Botha was even outboxing Tyson at that stage of his career for christ sake! Lewis knocking out Tyson when he did, is comparable to Holmes stopping Ali, or Norris beating Leonard.

The Mercer fight was a good some what competitive fight, but hardly a fight where Lewis showed heart. He was outmuscled and out gunned for the majority of it. Infact I scored it for Mercer 7-3. Lewis held on for dear life for the most part, a feat which he will repeat when he fought Tua and later Tyson.

Whether people like it or not, holding your opponents head into position, then punching with your other hand is an illegal move, and Lewis did this twice. Lewis should of at least been penalised. Bruno and Grant should of also been granted time to recover.

I respect Lewis for what he has done in the ring, but I also tell it how it is, Lewis doesnt deserve to be in the top 10 let alone top 15. If Lewis was American, I will garantee that the Brits wouldn't be hyping him up as much.

Are you really saying lewis held on for dear life against 2 opponents that he completely outboxed,dear,dear me,you are seeing things slightly different to everyone else in the WHOLE WORLD,i despair,i really do

Well why else was he holding on? There was more clinches than punches in the Lewis-Tyson fight, and as for Tua. Well dont get me started on what is probably the most boring heavyweight title match in the history of the sport.

[bigjack]

Razorko

Holding on is a way to avoid being knocked out by a shorter,stocky big puncher,legal or not,it happens and if the Tua fight is the most boring title fight you have ever seen,well you must be living on mars or somewhere else where they don't show Wlads and Vitalis fights,did you not watch John Ruiz in action ?,mmm thought not

[Syntax Error]

The leaner Lewis could still bang, though.

True; Donovan 'Razor' Ruddock would probably agree with you also.

[Jon Saxon]

Yes, but he beat Norton a few months after he got fleeced by Ali, Shavers a few months after he iced Norton in one, and Witherspoon and Weaver BEFORE they went on to become world champions.

That mullers up Lewis' wins against Mavrovic, Grant and Tua in my opinion

Bilge!

Lewis beat Vitali (WBO don't count) & Rahman who afterwards went on to become champions.

McCall wasn't a fringe contender he had already beat Ferguson, Damiani, Seldon and went on to beat Maskaev & Akinwande.

[thepocketrocket]

Yes, but he beat Norton a few months after he got fleeced by Ali, Shavers a few months after he iced Norton in one, and Witherspoon and Weaver BEFORE they went on to become world champions.

That mullers up Lewis' wins against Mavrovic, Grant and Tua in my opinion

Bilge!

Lewis beat Vitali (WBO don't count) & Rahman who afterwards went on to become champions.

McCall wasn't a fringe contender he had already beat Ferguson, Damiani, Seldon and went on to beat Maskaev & Akinwande.

Yes...Rahman won an interim belt, drew against Toney. Somewhere down the line he was given the 'real' title, though he never won that title in a ring. Then he got banged out by Makaev. Rahman and you think he was a two time title holder, but the rest of the world know that is wrong.

As for Klit, i would say that is his best win namewise. Though the merits of that fight on one week notice for each remain cloudy in my opinion. It was interesting, but both will think they could have been better with a proper camp preparing for each other

We will agree to disagree on McCall. Ferguson, Damiani and Seldon at that point were seen as fringe level contenders, and the best guy had fought was Tucker who he lost to. He also to Douglas and Orlin Norris. This isn't a massively dangerous guy coming over. He was fringe level fighter with a good chin.

[Tuan_Jim]

Now I'm going to have to fall on the side of Lewis, and recount information those of us following the sport at the time might remember.

Oliver McCall was considered a live & dangerous challenger coming into the first Lennox Lewis fight. He was a genuine contender. Boxing Monthly called McCall Lewis' most dangerous opponent to date in their preview. He was a fast improving fighter, as anyone with a pair of eyes could see. He wasn't considered a 'fringe level fighter'. In fact the word was if Lewis wasn't taking McCall seriously he might be in big trouble. How right they were.

As for McCall's wins. Damiani was a top 10 ranked heavy across the board, rated in BI's independent top 10, and McCall literally bludgeoned him. Seldon was a hot prospect in all the rags, highly regarded, spoken of in the same class as Bowe, Mercer, Morrison, Moorer. He was expected to beat McCall. McCall beat him up. His loss to top 10 ranked Tony Tucker in the NABF title fight was regarded as a controversial decision. He had lost to an on-form Buster Douglas, and yet had performed so much better vs Douglas than Mike Tyson did a few months later.

This dismissal of McCall as a journeyman loser is not accurate, and tends to be perpetuated because it is convenient, and primarily by boxing fans who have come to the sport in the internet age, ignorant to boxing history and learning about fighters by looking at a Boxrec page.

There was a reason Manny Steward wanted to train Oliver McCall and not Phil Jackson.

[thepocketrocket]

Now I'm going to have to fall on the side of Lewis, and recount information those of us following the sport at the time might remember.

Oliver McCall was considered a live & dangerous challenger coming into the first Lennox Lewis fight. He was a genuine contender. Boxing Monthly called McCall Lewis' most dangerous opponent to date in their preview. He was a fast improving fighter, as anyone with a pair of eyes could see. He wasn't considered a 'fringe level fighter'. In fact the word was if Lewis wasn't taking McCall seriously he might be in big trouble. How right they were.

As for McCall's wins. Damiani was a top 10 ranked heavy across the board, rated in BI's independent top 10, and McCall literally bludgeoned him. Seldon was a hot prospect in all the rags, highly regarded, spoken of in the same class as Bowe, Mercer, Morrison, Moorer. He was expected to beat McCall. McCall beat him up. His loss to top 10 ranked Tony Tucker in the NABF title fight was regarded as a controversial decision. He had lost to an on-form Buster Douglas, and yet had performed so much better vs Douglas than Mike Tyson did a few months later.

This dismissal of McCall as a journeyman loser is not accurate, and tends to be perpetuated because it is convenient, and primarily by boxing fans who have come to the sport in the internet age, ignorant to boxing history and learning about fighters by looking at a Boxrec page.

There was a reason Manny Steward wanted to train Oliver McCall and not Phil Jackson.

I never said he was regarded as a journeyman loser. I am saying he wasn't seen as some vicious killer which he is painted as in some circles. You had the main guys, and then you had a level below. McCall was not seen as a champion in waiting, hence my earmarking him as a man who sat on the fringes of the world picture.

Now I never said he was some sort of bum

[Tuan_Jim]

True, not you personally, but it is something you hear uttered about McCall a lot on the internet.

[thepocketrocket]

True, not you personally, but it is something you hear uttered about McCall a lot on the internet.

Sound mate

[jamesmcdonnell]

Mmmm. not sure I place the 80s pack in the positive light you do. True Witherspoon and Holmes are two who would have been great fights for Lewis but to suggest Lewis is only a mere equal with the forgotten generation of Biggs, Weaver, Tate, Smith and co is not one I share.

Lewis is a fight for anyone and likely survives Foreman and Liston, loses a squeaky one to Holmes and Ali, scrapes by Holy, beats Bowe and a handful for prime Mike too.

I agree with this, though I think Liston, who was a much underrated boxer and the possessor of the hardest jab in the history of the division, may have been able to dominate with the jab, and smash Lewis up. foreman was a monster, but was never exactly cute - he didn't need to be. Against Lewis, he would have been found out.

Holmes and Ali, too quick, too tough, and both too skilled for Lewis to win. I cannot see Lewis outboxing either man, and no way could he have stopped them.

I agree, a handful for a Prime Mike Tyson, but let me ask you Dave me old China, do you think he would have beaten him? I always envisaged a prime Tyson slipping under that Jab at some point, and unleashing a volley of shots that would have taken Lewis out. Tyson in his prime was so quick, and also had a great chin (thought we didn't find that out until he lost to Douglas as nobody ever really was able to land a succession of shots on him), I think that would have been too much for Lewis.

In his Prime, Holyfield was quick, mobile and accurate, and could fight bigger men on the inside and win the trading, but I think Lewis had the long range skills to dominate the fight. I think Lewis' biggest flaw was complacency and arrogance, which is why Holyfield did so much better in the rematch, Lewis knew he had his beating, and turned in a slightly lacklustre performance, and earned a win he didn't really deserve.

[DavidPayne]

Yes, but he beat Norton a few months after he got fleeced by Ali, Shavers a few months after he iced Norton in one, and Witherspoon and Weaver BEFORE they went on to become world champions.

That mullers up Lewis' wins against Mavrovic, Grant and Tua in my opinion

Bilge!

Lewis beat Vitali (WBO don't count) & Rahman who afterwards went on to become champions.

McCall wasn't a fringe contender he had already beat Ferguson, Damiani, Seldon and went on to beat Maskaev & Akinwande.

Yes...Rahman won an interim belt, drew against Toney. Somewhere down the line he was given the 'real' title, though he never won that title in a ring. Then he got banged out by Makaev. Rahman and you think he was a two time title holder, but the rest of the world know that is wrong.

As for Klit, i would say that is his best win namewise. Though the merits of that fight on one week notice for each remain cloudy in my opinion. It was interesting, but both will think they could have been better with a proper camp preparing for each other

We will agree to disagree on McCall. Ferguson, Damiani and Seldon at that point were seen as fringe level contenders, and the best guy had fought was Tucker who he lost to. He also to Douglas and Orlin Norris. This isn't a massively dangerous guy coming over. He was fringe level fighter with a good chin.

I'm not comparing Norton and Rahman, but Ken never won a title fight either.

[DavidPayne]

Mmmm. not sure I place the 80s pack in the positive light you do. True Witherspoon and Holmes are two who would have been great fights for Lewis but to suggest Lewis is only a mere equal with the forgotten generation of Biggs, Weaver, Tate, Smith and co is not one I share.

Lewis is a fight for anyone and likely survives Foreman and Liston, loses a squeaky one to Holmes and Ali, scrapes by Holy, beats Bowe and a handful for prime Mike too.

I agree with this, though I think Liston, who was a much underrated boxer and the possessor of the hardest jab in the history of the division, may have been able to dominate with the jab, and smash Lewis up. foreman was a monster, but was never exactly cute - he didn't need to be. Against Lewis, he would have been found out.

Holmes and Ali, too quick, too tough, and both too skilled for Lewis to win. I cannot see Lewis outboxing either man, and no way could he have stopped them.

I agree, a handful for a Prime Mike Tyson, but let me ask you Dave me old China, do you think he would have beaten him? I always envisaged a prime Tyson slipping under that Jab at some point, and unleashing a volley of shots that would have taken Lewis out. Tyson in his prime was so quick, and also had a great chin (thought we didn't find that out until he lost to Douglas as nobody ever really was able to land a succession of shots on him), I think that would have been too much for Lewis.

In his Prime, Holyfield was quick, mobile and accurate, and could fight bigger men on the inside and win the trading, but I think Lewis had the long range skills to dominate the fight. I think Lewis' biggest flaw was complacency and arrogance, which is why Holyfield did so much better in the rematch, Lewis knew he had his beating, and turned in a slightly lacklustre performance, and earned a win he didn't really deserve.

I was adamantly in the Lewis ALWAYS beats Tyson camp when they were active. I think Lewis had deeper reserves of guts than he's credited with, Mercer and Vitali evidenced it but also in blitzing feared opponents too and lest we forget he was trailing to Bruno. He had balls and was wise enough to know Tyson would fade, this is a prime Tyson who couldn't budge or threaten Smith after all. But I have to say time has made me reflect on this conclusion and I'd be nervous as hell if a 1987 Tyson was facing anything other than wisest version of Lennox.

[RazorKO]

Razorko

Holding on is a way to avoid being knocked out by a shorter,stocky big puncher,legal or not,it happens and if the Tua fight is the most boring title fight you have ever seen,well you must be living on mars or somewhere else where they don't show Wlads and Vitalis fights,did you not watch John Ruiz in action ?,mmm thought not

Holding on is a way to avoid being knocked out yes, but to repeatedly hold on through the fight is an illegal tactic. You dont win a fight grabbing and holding you are meant to be in there fighting. Lewis mastered the 'jab and grab' technique when things weren't going his way, even before Ruiz.

The Tyson and Tua fights should be mandatory viewing for insomnia.

[HeavyHitters]

Holyfield is one of the greatest ever at any weight. The fact Lewis beat him comfortably both times in Holyfield's home country counts in his favour, not against him.

A focused 97-01 Lewis doesn't get beat by any HW in history.

Holmes would have beaten him.

I also thing James "Buster" Douglas the night he clobbered an undefeated Tyson could have beaten a prime Lennox Lewis. He was highly motivated spiritually be dedicating his performance to his mom who had just recently passed away. The Douglas that night could of stood toe-to-toe with any heavyweight champion in history and had a great shot at victory.

8) 8) 8) 8)

[bigjack]

Razorko

Holding on is a way to avoid being knocked out by a shorter,stocky big puncher,legal or not,it happens and if the Tua fight is the most boring title fight you have ever seen,well you must be living on mars or somewhere else where they don't show Wlads and Vitalis fights,did you not watch John Ruiz in action ?,mmm thought not

Holding on is a way to avoid being knocked out yes, but to repeatedly hold on through the fight is an illegal tactic. You dont win a fight grabbing and holding you are meant to be in there fighting. Lewis mastered the 'jab and grab' technique when things weren't going his way, even before Ruiz.

The Tyson and Tua fights should be mandatory viewing for insomnia.

He did win both fights though didn't he,easily,and its down to the ref to stop it isn't it.

[Tuan_Jim]

He had balls and was wise enough to know Tyson would fade, this is a prime Tyson who couldn't budge or threaten Smith after all. But I have to say time has made me reflect on this conclusion and I'd be nervous as hell if a 1987 Tyson was facing anything other than wisest version of Lennox.

Tyson didn't fade versus Tucker and Smith. He was going strong to the end. Also, Bonecrusher ate some huge shots square on the chin - but Bonecrusher had an A+ chin, as did Tucker, as did Green.

Lewis absolutely would get hit versus a prime Mike Tyson. And because of his chin & poor recuperative abilities I cannot see him surviving. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Tyson caught him with a flying sledgehammer in 1.

[lillywhite14]

Holyfield is one of the greatest ever at any weight. The fact Lewis beat him comfortably both times in Holyfield's home country counts in his favour, not against him.

A focused 97-01 Lewis doesn't get beat by any HW in history.

Holmes would have beaten him.

I also thing James "Buster" Douglas the night he clobbered an undefeated Tyson could have beaten a prime Lennox Lewis. He was highly motivated spiritually be dedicating his performance to his mom who had just recently passed away. The Douglas that night could of stood toe-to-toe with any heavyweight champion in history and had a great shot at victory.

8) 8) 8) 8)

I have often heard this but I have always thought its an opinion being made to enhance Tyson's standing. 'Sure, Tyson lost but Douglas would have beaten any heavyweight ever that night' ( not exactly the same as your opinion to be fair )

A prime Lewis would have beat any version of Douglas 10 times out of 10.

[mickey1975]

But could only beat Rahman 50% of the time?

[DavidPayne]

He had balls and was wise enough to know Tyson would fade, this is a prime Tyson who couldn't budge or threaten Smith after all. But I have to say time has made me reflect on this conclusion and I'd be nervous as hell if a 1987 Tyson was facing anything other than wisest version of Lennox.

Tyson didn't fade versus Tucker and Smith. He was going strong to the end. Also, Bonecrusher ate some huge shots square on the chin - but Bonecrusher had an A+ chin, as did Tucker, as did Green.

Lewis absolutely would get hit versus a prime Mike Tyson. And because of his chin & poor recuperative abilities I cannot see him surviving. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Tyson caught him with a flying sledgehammer in 1.

He ran out of ideas to shift them. Holyfield would ALWAYS have beaten Tyson but I digress. The best version of Tyson v the best version of Lewis. I'd still take Lewis but I don't dismiss the idea Tyson may have toppled him.

[bigjack]

He had balls and was wise enough to know Tyson would fade, this is a prime Tyson who couldn't budge or threaten Smith after all. But I have to say time has made me reflect on this conclusion and I'd be nervous as hell if a 1987 Tyson was facing anything other than wisest version of Lennox.

Tyson didn't fade versus Tucker and Smith. He was going strong to the end. Also, Bonecrusher ate some huge shots square on the chin - but Bonecrusher had an A+ chin, as did Tucker, as did Green.

Lewis absolutely would get hit versus a prime Mike Tyson. And because of his chin & poor recuperative abilities I cannot see him surviving. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Tyson caught him with a flying sledgehammer in 1.

He ran out of ideas to shift them. Holyfield would ALWAYS have beaten Tyson but I digress. The best version of Tyson v the best version of Lewis. I'd still take Lewis but I don't dismiss the idea Tyson may have toppled him.

When Lewis saw someone as a threat,he was switched on,Golota for instance and Grant,his problem seems to be complacency and laziness,which certainly cost him the loss to Rahman,i think the McCall loss was due to inexperience and bad corner advice,i still maintain he should have been allowed to carry on in that one though,but hey ho.

[lillywhite14]

But could only beat Rahman 50% of the time?

A prime and fully focused* Lewis beat Rahman 100% of the time

* prime, best of, meaning a fully focused Lennox. I should have mentioned this above!