What if? Foreman vs Frazier - March 8 1971

[Tuan_Jim]

But that is just it; Frazier didn't have many "miles on the dock".

The Fight of the Century transcended brutality. That bout was bound to put 10x the miles on the clock of even the most outstanding heavyweight brawl.

Plus, we have to consider how the fast, high-pressure, all-out assault fighters always have a short shelf-life, due to the inhuman style they box in.

Plus plus, Frazier by all accounts didn't play in sparring. Every session was a war. Norton and Holmes experienced the worst of this.

Amazed you're overlooking the details in relation to Smokin' Joe. Please do not confuse my stance with the trollish delirium of Yancey, Duce et al.

[drunkenpiper36]

Frazier was a bit better in 1971 than he was in 1973. He was certainly more dedicated to training and hadn't put as many miles on the odometer yet. But regardless, I think George Foreman would have beaten him. Joe may have last an extra round or two and landed some decent shots.. But I don't think being two years younger, with a few less miles and some extra time in the gym would have made the difference in turning the tables from getting killed in two rounds to completely winning the fight.. Foreman had his number.. That's all there is to it.

[Ambling Alp II]

But that is just it; Frazier didn't have many "miles on the dock".

The Fight of the Century transcended brutality. That bout was bound to put 10x the miles on the clock of even the most outstanding heavyweight brawl.

Plus, we have to consider how the fast, high-pressure, all-out assault fighters always have a short shelf-life, due to the inhuman style they box in.

Plus plus, Frazier by all accounts didn't play in sparring. Every session was a war. Norton and Holmes experienced the worst of this.

Amazed you're overlooking the details in relation to Smokin' Joe. Please do not confuse my stance with the trollish delirium of Yancey, Duce et al.

The first fight was a tough fight, but no real reason why Frazier would never be the same. It wasn't nearly as brutal as their 3rd fight. Ali was older than Frazier and went through a lot more than Frazier and their fight didn't seem to cause to dramatically slip.

There have been many, many fighters who don't get excuses for them after they had taken more punishment than Frazier in their careers.

As for sparring, who knows. There are always tales from the gym. Every session was a war? Well, another poster just posted that Frazier didn't like to train and that was why he was never the same. So which excuse is it, he trained too hard or not enough?

[Ambling Alp II]

I mean you said he was an excuse maker???

He had an excuse for everything.

He claimed to have lost the first fight against Foreman because he just "wasn't right".
He actually claimed that he should have got the decision vs Ali in their 2nd fight.
He claimed that his trainer should not have stopped the fight in his 3rd fight vs Ali. (Even though he was getting pounded, could barely see, and didn't complain until years afterward.)
He shouldn't have wore contacts in the 2nd Foreman fight. Really? How dumb to you have to be.

In the Olympic Trials, he lost to Buster Mathis. Why? Because he claimed that Mathis' trunks were too high. Seriously.

The sad thing is that many people buy into this BS. If you really want to, you make an excuse for the loser of every fight. Occasionally, there is a legitimate excuse. Usually not.

[misterpunch]

joe was close to winning the thrilla - a true warrior - of course he wanted to go on

I once thought alp had a clue about boxing and sports - this thread tells me I'm wrong about that

[yancey]

joe was close to winning the thrilla - a true warrior - of course he wanted to go on

I once thought alp had a clue about boxing and sports - this thread tells me I'm wrong about that

I never thought he had much of a clue, but glad to know other people are realizing it.

The notion that Foreman got prime Frazier in Jamaica is incredibly foolish.

This is NOT to say that prime Frazier is the favorite to beat '73 Foreman.

I've said over and over again that I think '73 Foreman is the favorite, but that there is conceivable path to victory for prime Joe.

[yancey]

But that is just it; Frazier didn't have many "miles on the dock".

The Fight of the Century transcended brutality. That bout was bound to put 10x the miles on the clock of even the most outstanding heavyweight brawl.

Plus, we have to consider how the fast, high-pressure, all-out assault fighters always have a short shelf-life, due to the inhuman style they box in.

Plus plus, Frazier by all accounts didn't play in sparring. Every session was a war. Norton and Holmes experienced the worst of this.

Amazed you're overlooking the details in relation to Smokin' Joe. Please do not confuse my stance with the trollish delirium of Yancey, Duce et al.

Surprisingly, you are correct in your assessment about the tremendous mileage put on the clock in the FOTC.

I've said over and over again that Frazier was never, ever the same post-FOTC. A swarmer like him took tremendous punishment that night at MSG.

He gave a creditable performance against Quarry in '74 and summoned himself for a great effort against Ali, but his best days ended with the FOTC. (actually, a year earlier, but some don't get that)

As far as this "trollish delirium" business goes, I wouldn't take twenty low wattage guys like you over the stimulation and humour that Duce provided for this forum.

Some, like yourself, simply didn't get it.

[elmersalsa]

If the great Smoking Joe passes the 5th round, (in which I think, in his prime, he will), it would be a nightmare for the great Big George. The longer the fight, the worse for Big George to win this fight. Stamina was the big issue here. Joe was like a motor, the longer the fight, the hotter he got. He was not called Smokin Joe for nothing. I could see why.

[yancey]

If the great Smoking Joe passes the 5th round, (in which I think, in his prime, he will), it would be a nightmare for the great Big George. The longer the fight, the worse for Big George to win this fight. Stamina was the big issue here. Joe was like a motor, the longer the fight, the hotter he got. He was not called Smokin Joe for nothing. I could see why.

I do agree that IF prime Joe gets past those early, dangerous rounds, then the tide would turn and GF would be in deep trouble.

[scallum]

frazier was far from his peak - the fire was out, the smoke was barely there at all - I loved joe frazier. a real sporting giant.

You are exactly right in every word you say.

It is impossible for me to take serious anyone who actually thinks that Joe Frazier was still at his peak for the first Foreman fight.

Foreman himself knows and says that the Frazier he faced was not the Frazier of earlier years.

But Ali was at his peak vs Frazier 1

[scallum]

Foreman was juzt way to big and Strong and dominates any version of Frazier

[evrenb]

I must say I cannot agree with Alp's comments. Not very charitable to Joe.

[evrenb]

If the great Smoking Joe passes the 5th round, (in which I think, in his prime, he will), it would be a nightmare for the great Big George. The longer the fight, the worse for Big George to win this fight. Stamina was the big issue here. Joe was like a motor, the longer the fight, the hotter he got. He was not called Smokin Joe for nothing. I could see why.

I do agree that IF prime Joe gets past those early, dangerous rounds, then the tide would turn and GF would be in deep trouble.

Hi Yancey

Have you seen the Joe Frazier vs Ryan O'neal exhibition bout?? It was on youtube awhile back.

Eb

[yancey]

If the great Smoking Joe passes the 5th round, (in which I think, in his prime, he will), it would be a nightmare for the great Big George. The longer the fight, the worse for Big George to win this fight. Stamina was the big issue here. Joe was like a motor, the longer the fight, the hotter he got. He was not called Smokin Joe for nothing. I could see why.

I do agree that IF prime Joe gets past those early, dangerous rounds, then the tide would turn and GF would be in deep trouble.

Hi Yancey

Have you seen the Joe Frazier vs Ryan O'neal exhibition bout?? It was on youtube awhile back.

Eb

Thanks for telling me. Just watched it. Never knew this happened.

Interesting to see Ali and Patterson there. This must have been around 1966, I guess.

And Ali was right, O'Neal deserved the "decision".

I reckon in a real fight O'Neal goes 30 seconds, though he did show some athleticism.

[evrenb]

Hi Yancey

Have you seen the Joe Frazier vs Ryan O'neal exhibition bout?? It was on youtube awhile back.

Eb[/quote]

Thanks for telling me. Just watched it. Never knew this happened.

Interesting to see Ali and Patterson there. This must have been around 1966, I guess.

And Ali was right, O'Neal deserved the "decision".

I reckon in a real fight O'Neal goes 30 seconds, though he did show some athleticism.[/quote]



No problems....cant agree with the 30 second prediction though....Joe was a notoriously slow starter

[Ambling Alp II]

joe was close to winning the thrilla - a true warrior - of course he wanted to go on

I once thought alp had a clue about boxing and sports - this thread tells me I'm wrong about that

He didn't complain about the stoppage at the time it happened. Interviewed soon after, he wasn't complaining. More importantly, years he later actually claimed that he would have won the fight if it was not stopped. That is making a excuse, nothing more than that.

[Ambling Alp II]

I must say I cannot agree with Alp's comments. Not very charitable to Joe.

No they aren't charitable. However, they are all true. He made those excuses for all of his losses.

[Caractacus]

here is the link to THE MIKE DOUGLAS SHOW from the early 1970's(1970 I think),
with an 'exhibition'between Joe Frazier and actor Ryan O'Neil.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ilMU8yRCyo

[evrenb]

I must say I cannot agree with Alp's comments. Not very charitable to Joe.

No they aren't charitable. However, they are all true. He made those excuses for all of his losses.

I havent the energy to argue with you...joe was an excusemaker....

[Ambling Alp II]

There is nothing to argue about. He had 4 professional losses in his 37 pro fights. He made an excuse for all of them. He also had an excuse for the biggest amateur loss (Olympic Trials) that he had.

[SteveO]

I agree that Joe left a lot in the FOTC but I think Foreman would have been too much for him at any time. Same as I think Foreman would have been too much for Mike Tyson. Tyson knew that too. It's all a matter of styles.

[Caractacus]

here is the link to THE MIKE DOUGLAS SHOW from the early 1970's(1970 I think),
with an 'exhibition'between Joe Frazier and actor Ryan O'Neil.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ilMU8yRCyo

You were closer to the date as to when the exhibition happened Yancey.
I just read that particular Mike Douglas Show aired in September 1967.
I wonder why Floyd Patterson was late in getting there?

[yancey]

I agree that Joe left a lot in the FOTC but I think Foreman would have been too much for him at any time. Same as I think Foreman would have been too much for Mike Tyson. Tyson knew that too. It's all a matter of styles.

^

This is a quite reasonable opinion. I can accept this.

The style match up of smaller swarmer coming into a big slugger is indeed not a good one. (for the swarmer)

Still, Frazier at his very best had a viable (35%) chance of overcoming the disadvantage, imo. He has to get tight, stay tight, and get past those first 4 rounds in decent shape. Then the tide might very well have turned.

[yancey]

I must say I cannot agree with Alp's comments. Not very charitable to Joe.

Some Ali fans will never, ever forgive Joe for prevailing in the Big One, aka the FOTC.

[Duch]

I agree that Joe left a lot in the FOTC but I think Foreman would have been too much for him at any time. Same as I think Foreman would have been too much for Mike Tyson. Tyson knew that too. It's all a matter of styles.

^

This is a quite reasonable opinion. I can accept this.

The style match up of smaller swarmer coming into a big slugger is indeed not a good one. (for the swarmer)

Still, Frazier at his very best had a viable (35%) chance of overcoming the disadvantage, imo. He has to get tight, stay tight, and get past those first 4 rounds in decent shape. Then the tide might very well have turned.

But if it's 35% you should bet on Foreman and say that he's a favourite here.

Some Ali fans will never, ever forgive Joe for prevailing in the Big One, aka the FOTC.

Oh, pls. Not again with that bullshit that everyone who says sth wrong about Frazier must be Ali's fan or vice versa. There is the same crap in football with Messi and Ronaldo like they're only these two and nobody else.