Lennox aint a Legend!!!

[Crease]

Lennox Lewis should never be called "A LEGEND" he certainely is not, I would even doubt calling him a great fighter!
HERE'S WhY...

Lennox won the Olympic Gold in 1988, he started professional boxing (and was very careful to avoid a certain Mr. Mike Tyson). Remember that there was a 4 year gap (1992-95) where Tyson was elligible to fight...

Lewis excels against good fighters becoming British, Commonwealth and European Heavyweight Champion establisihing himself as an International boxer. Tyson was already the reigniong world champion and he couldn't challenge Lennox for any of these titles due to his nationality.

Lewis then is crowned WBC champion without even fighting anyone for the belt. Tyson was away and Bowe wouldn't fight him. Lewis routinely defended his title before losing to McCall (1994), a capable boxer at best!

Lewis regains his composure and regains the title (1997). He beats a few capable boxers before accepting an offer he couldn't refuse, Evander Holyfield (the man who I say fisnished Mike Tyson) who held the other 3 major world titles wanted a re-unification match to decide the 1 true world champion, Lewis agrees.

Lewis and Holyfield battled to a stalemate (1999) and a halk year later fight the re-match which Lewis narrowly wins on points.

(I feel disgusted at this becuase both fights were extremely close and I feel that Holyfield was overlooked from this point forward due to this loss. I my opinion he couldv'e very easily have been a Holyfield victory, it was that close).

Lewis is now the undisputed world champion holding all 4 major titles, WBC, WBA, WBO + IBF belts.

However Lewis is an extremely intelligent boxer (he should've been a politian) and he relinquishes his WBA title (2000) so that he wouldn't have to fight a dangerous Mexican called John Ruiz coming up through the ranks!

Lewis defeats Grant, Botha and Tua, ignoring Ruiz and Tysons revival by fighting lesser boxers. Notice that Lewis never fought the world no 2 during hsi reign. Lewis picks Rahman which should've been another easy fight but he loses and uses his big mouth to gaina return fight which he wins (2001).

Aty this time the press are mocking Lewis and "The Lion" decides to fight a run-down Mike Tyson (who wasn't half the man he was 10 years before) and wins by KO (2002).

After this fight the press go easier on Lewis and he notices another dangerous fighter coming up called Chris Byrd and vacates his IBF title so he wouldn't have to fight this guy.

But what Lewis didn't forsee was a storm on the horizon from the East, Kltichsko had earned a title shot at Lewis and the champ had no more major titles to give up, he had to fight.

The big fight ened with a Lewis victory due to a stoppage but after a fight analysis, it turned out that Lewis used his head. The public creid for a re-maytch but LEWIS RETIRED FROM BOXING SOI THAT HE WOULDN'T HAVE TO BE PRESSURED INTO FIGHTING AGAIN!

So is Lewis a legend after all this?

[wsbuf]

Never though so myself...but...when i see photos of him I am beginning to feel that way. Maybe because i'm so disgusted with the crop of Champs(?) since he left.

[e.c.flurry]

However Lewis is an extremely intelligent boxer (he should've been a politian) and he relinquishes his WBA title (2000) so that he wouldn't have to fight a dangerous Mexican called John Ruiz coming up through the ranks!


So is Lewis a legend after all this?

Thank god you said he was mexican I feel so ashamed everytime that sob says he's is from pr that piece of trash He should die. He is not from pr that bitch-ass is from nj.

He is top 5 p4p in my to kill for free list along with Bush Duncan 50cent and yao ming oh and tom cruise is catching up.

[ferroz]

Lewis fought all the worth while opponents. All of them. I think him not fighting Byrd or Ruiz shold not blemish his legacy.

[jedijojo]

Lennox won the Olympic Gold in 1988, he started professional boxing (and was very careful to avoid a certain Mr. Mike Tyson). Remember that there was a 4 year gap (1992-95) where Tyson was elligible to fight...


Thats bullshit... Tyson is the one who didn't want to fight Lewis. First, in 92-93-94 he was in jail. He came back and fought Mcneely, Mathis, Bruno and Seldon, but was stripped the WBC belt because he didn't want to fight Lewis. Don King gave him 4 millions (i think) to ''step away''

[barry]

Not a chance is Lewis a legend. Legends don't get blown away in their supposed primes by less than great fighters! It might happen once by shear luck, but not twice!

[kick asner]

Not a chance is Lewis a legend. Legends don't get blown away in their supposed primes by less than great fighters! It might happen once by shear luck, but not twice!

One thing you could say in defense of Lewis when he did lose he came back and avenged both losses by knockout. I think that helps to erase it to a degree.

[kikibalt]

Hey Decagon you don't think Joe Louis is a legend?

[Ezzard]

Lewis was never mastered in the ring. His KO's were clean one punch hits. He also had some struggles but nobody ever beat him up. Klitschko came the closest. I rate lewis as a champion but Crease has offered an interesting take on Lewis which cannot totally be dismissed. The only problem is that Lewis was surely not worried by Ruiz and Byrd. He would have beaten both convincingly.

[barry]

>>>when he did lose he came back and avenged both losses by knockout.<<<

He most certainly did not knock out Oliver McCall, and he had free shots to the head...no I think Lewis was very fortunate that McCall had a breakdown in that bout, or the outcome may have been just as the first...he knocked Rahman out, but he should have done that to start with.

[silkov]

Lewis was a very good fighter and a decent champion in a era populated by mediocre opposition, but I don't think Lewis was really 'great' by any stretch of the imagination... those who have compared him to Ali should wake up and apologise... :x

[Rory McCloskey]

i think hes a good fighter and he deserves his props. an all-time great?.. not in my book. i think he is a good fighter but his competition was WEAK. i think he lost to holyfield, and the fight against tyson was soooo far after tyson's prime. but i also think its unfair to lennox to call him decent or average

[Ezzard]

Lewis was a very good fighter and a decent champion in a era populated by mediocre opposition, but I don't think Lewis was really 'great' by any stretch of the imagination... those who have compared him to Ali should wake up and apologise... :x

I think the era was actually quite good. Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson, Bowe, Mercer, Moorer, Morrison, McCall were a talented bunch IMO. the problem for Lewis is that he basically met Tyson when Tyson was old, Holyfield when he was old (and Lewis just wasn't convincing enough) and never got to fight Bowe. I don't actually think he ducked anyone but he never fought any of the other big 4 prime for prime.

I certainly think that Holyfield was a great fighter.

[The Great John L]

Lewis was a very good fighter and a decent champion in a era populated by mediocre opposition, but I don't think Lewis was really 'great' by any stretch of the imagination... those who have compared him to Ali should wake up and apologise... :x

I think the era was actually quite good. Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson, Bowe, Mercer, Moorer, Morrison, McCall were a talented bunch IMO. the problem for Lewis is that he basically met Tyson when Tyson was old, Holyfield when he was old (and Lewis just wasn't convincing enough) and never got to fight Bowe. I don't actually think he ducked anyone but he never fought any of the other big 4 prime for prime.

I certainly think that Holyfield was a great fighter.

Why so quick to say Holyfield was a great fighter? As a CW I would say yes, but his resume at HW isn't quite as steller. Certainly Tyson was also past his prime when he fought Holyfield, and Bowe had zero accomplishments besides his 3 fights with Holy -- 2 of which Holyfield lost. And you've already said Lewis wasn't great, and he was 0-1-1 against him.

What else did he do at HW? Didn't exactly blow away the ancient Holmes and Foreman. Moorer, Bean, and fat out of shape Douglas?

Holyfield was a very good HW also, but I just can't see him as a great HW either.

[Ezzard]

Lewis was a very good fighter and a decent champion in a era populated by mediocre opposition, but I don't think Lewis was really 'great' by any stretch of the imagination... those who have compared him to Ali should wake up and apologise... :x

I think the era was actually quite good. Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson, Bowe, Mercer, Moorer, Morrison, McCall were a talented bunch IMO. the problem for Lewis is that he basically met Tyson when Tyson was old, Holyfield when he was old (and Lewis just wasn't convincing enough) and never got to fight Bowe. I don't actually think he ducked anyone but he never fought any of the other big 4 prime for prime.

I certainly think that Holyfield was a great fighter.

Why so quick to say Holyfield was a great fighter? As a CW I would say yes, but his resume at HW isn't quite as steller. Certainly Tyson was also past his prime when he fought Holyfield, and Bowe had zero accomplishments besides his 3 fights with Holy -- 2 of which Holyfield lost. And you've already said Lewis wasn't great, and he was 0-1-1 against him.

What else did he do at HW? Didn't exactly blow away the ancient Holmes and Foreman. Moorer, Bean, and fat out of shape Douglas?

Holyfield was a very good HW also, but I just can't see him as a great HW either.

He could be hot and cold but he pretty much fought everyone and was past his prime when he beat Tyson and fought Lewis. the Lewis fights were close enough for me to think that he'd have won had it have been a prime for prime match up. Not sure that I did say that Lewis wasn't great. he dominated for a long time. The one thing against lewis is his 2 dramatic KO losses.

I think wins against Tyson, Dokes, Bowe, Thomas, Mercer and a draw against Lewis is good stuff. I also think winning fights against Rahman and Ruiz when he had obviously slipped quite a bit are a testament to the man.

[The Great John L]

I think wins against Tyson, Dokes, Bowe, Thomas, Mercer and a draw against Lewis is good stuff. I also think winning fights against Rahman and Ruiz when he had obviously slipped quite a bit are a testament to the man.

Well, the Rahman fight was certainly an amazing performance at that stage of his career.

[gregor]

Why so quick to say Holyfield was a great fighter? As a CW I would say yes, but his resume at HW isn't quite as steller. Certainly Tyson was also past his prime when he fought Holyfield, and Bowe had zero accomplishments besides his 3 fights with Holy -- 2 of which Holyfield lost. And you've already said Lewis wasn't great, and he was 0-1-1 against him.
What else did he do at HW? Didn't exactly blow away the ancient Holmes and Foreman. Moorer, Bean, and fat out of shape Douglas?
Holyfield was a very good HW also, but I just can't see him as a great HW either.

You may have a point or two. On the other hand - who achieved more than Holyfield nowadays?
If you want to compare him with LL, then
- you have to admit Holy still fought much better Tyson than LL. This was the Tyson who was still able to win with opponents like Golota, Botha, etc. not the one who lost to McBride and Wiliams (and the one who fought LL)
- Bowe had zero accomplishments and won 2 of 3 - true, but still you'd rather rate him over Rahman and McCall
- Foreman - ancient or not, he was still good enough to become a champ after Holy fight (although you may argue he was rather "lucky enough")
- as to Holy being 0-1-1 against LL - well, Holy was already past prime. He was 2 years (and many ring wars) older than Lewis.

(BTW, I have no problems with Lewis being great, I just can't agree he did a lot more than Holyfield)

[Ezzard]

I think wins against Tyson, Dokes, Bowe, Thomas, Mercer and a draw against Lewis is good stuff. I also think winning fights against Rahman and Ruiz when he had obviously slipped quite a bit are a testament to the man.

Well, the Rahman fight was certainly an amazing performance at that stage of his career.

John what are you looking for in order to give the greatness tag? Are you looking at achivements or skill/physical profile, or a mix of both?

I know Holyfield has his detractors but for me he had heart, speed and stamina. He could be uninspiring at times. I thought that he'd get blown away by the first big HW he faced who wasn't over 40. The Holmes and Foreman fights confirmed my belief that he was protecting himself from live/young opponents. He got beat by Bowe who was the big young HW and I really thought that was that for Holyfield. He got a rematch and I thought that was more due to Bowe not wanting to stretch himself and I really gave Holyfield no chance. It was the same with Tyson. I considered Holyfield spent after the 3rd Bowe fight but had a name that would look good on Tyson's record.

[The Great John L]

John what are you looking for in order to give the greatness tag? Are you looking at achivements or skill/physical profile, or a mix of both?

Very good question. I would say you have to the accomlishments and the physical abilities. Holyfield had very good skills and very good accomplishments, but as you noted there were lapses. For all the discussion of his superior conditioning, there were an awful lot of fights where he became very lethargic after the 5th round or so. In many fights he was just your typical modern 35 punch/round guy. Obviously, this wasn't always the case, but I would say it was more often than not.

Perhaps I'm being too hard on him, because as you noted, the Tyson he beat was much better than the one that faced LL. But don't misunderstand what I'm saying. I guess I'll correct myself and say that I really don't have a problem with someone calling Holyfield a great HW, because I would put him (as well as LL) in the top 15 of all time, and that's pretty good. Maybe I'm just splitting hairs with the use of the word great.

[The Great John L]

Why so quick to say Holyfield was a great fighter? As a CW I would say yes, but his resume at HW isn't quite as steller. Certainly Tyson was also past his prime when he fought Holyfield, and Bowe had zero accomplishments besides his 3 fights with Holy -- 2 of which Holyfield lost. And you've already said Lewis wasn't great, and he was 0-1-1 against him.
What else did he do at HW? Didn't exactly blow away the ancient Holmes and Foreman. Moorer, Bean, and fat out of shape Douglas?
Holyfield was a very good HW also, but I just can't see him as a great HW either.

You may have a point or two. On the other hand - who achieved more than Holyfield nowadays?
If you want to compare him with LL, then
- you have to admit Holy still fought much better Tyson than LL. This was the Tyson who was still able to win with opponents like Golota, Botha, etc. not the one who lost to McBride and Wiliams (and the one who fought LL)
- Bowe had zero accomplishments and won 2 of 3 - true, but still you'd rather rate him over Rahman and McCall
- Foreman - ancient or not, he was still good enough to become a champ after Holy fight (although you may argue he was rather "lucky enough")
- as to Holy being 0-1-1 against LL - well, Holy was already past prime. He was 2 years (and many ring wars) older than Lewis.

(BTW, I have no problems with Lewis being great, I just can't agree he did a lot more than Holyfield)

Not sure I ever said that Lewis accomplished a lot more than Holyfield, but maybe you were refering to another poster.

As far as Bowe -- yes, I think I would rate him better than Rahman and McCall, but I notice he never actually fought McCall, and I'm sure he and that slimy mangaer of his would have been able to avoid Rahman as well.

[Ezzard]

McCall seemed like a limited fighter but a very hard man. He had a good punch and a hard chin. He also seemed to be rugged and uncompromising. I have no idea what happened on that night with Lewis. It was very odd.

[Crease]

Okay guys, lets put things into perspective. I would definitely say that Holyfield was the man who finished Tyson off. Tyson only ever lost to 5 boxers;
1. James "Buster" Douglas, I remember this fight was a big upset at the time, because then Tyson was a monster!

2. Evander Holyfield, he beat Tyson on two consecutuive occasions, I think these victories are the fights that brought Iron Mike down to earth.

3. Lennox Lewis, Tyson still had his brute force KO power but he was old now and he couldn't maintain pressure on his opponents as he once could have, Lewis KO'd him, the better man won the fight.

4. Danny Williams + 5. Kevin McBride, Tysdon didn't have the heart for the fights no more...

I would say Tyson is more a legend than Lewis and I would also say that Iron Mike would've KO'd him if they fought prime-to-prime.

1 thing that could always be said about Tyson and Holyfield is that they've never dodged any fights, I like and respect that in a boxer.

Lewis never defended his titles (after the Hoylfield battles) against boxers who were the immediate world no 2, UNTIL it came to Vitali Klitchsko, and he had to defned the WBC title, after this fight he retired... I wonder why?

I liked Ruiz as champ,. he didn't ry to dodge big Valuev, he took the foight on fair and square and unfortunately lost...

[Ezzard]

Crease

I don't think Lewis ducked anyone. He might have chosen a few softer options late on in his career but that's pretty normal to be fair.

I think Tyson-Lewis prime-for-prime is a very intriguing match up. I believe Lewis had the tools to beat Tyson (size, punch, jab and uppercut) but he also had the chin that menat he could be KO'd. He also didn't like the fast paced fights and Tyson would have come out fast for the first few rounds.

its a hard one to call.

[Crease]

I will always say that Lewis was a great boxer but definitely not a legend. Think of it, Lewis won the WBC title without fighting and he won 1 more fight against Holyfield and he had held all 4 mjor world titles.
2 fights = 4 belts.

I do miss Lewis, he should've carried on fighting until he was beaten, however [b]Ezzard I disagree with you, I think Byrd would've defeated Lewis[/b].

Lennox had an interesting style, he used his reach, hitting you with a stiff jab and when he sensed you were faltering he'd lead on with a heavy right. Lewis definitely had power behind his punches but his mentality (i think) is what prevents him from being a Hevayweight Legend.

He was a champion of boxing politics, he knew as soon as he relinquished his title to Ruiz that in his legacy, he would be remembered as the man to hold 4 Heavyweight World titles. He also retired champion, and I remember at his press conference (when he announced his retirment) he compared himself to Marciano. And the British press also started comparing Lewis to Ali, (this is a big undertake on Ali's leagcy). Lewis also realised that as soon as he retired anyone who became champ after him would aonly be a Papr Champeign as he never defeated the reigning champion. Lewis played boxing politics to his full potential.

I would also call Holyfield a great boxer becuase he wasn't scared to fight anyone, when Lewis refused the fights against Ruiz and Byrd, Evander foguht Ruiz 3 times with a win, draw and loss to his record. But he lost to Byrd fairly.
Here are my Heavyweight Legends:
Muhammad Ali, Rocky Marciano, Joe Louis, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Jack Dempsey and Mike Tyson.
When would you ever see any of these boys dodge a fight? They had the special ability plus the meantiality, Lewis doesn't have the mentality!!!

I didn't count great boxers like Gene Tunney, Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Sonny Liston, Floyd Patterson, Larry Holmes or Evander Holyfield becuase I don't think they've got the VA VA VOOM that you need to be A LEGEND...

Lewis count be counted in this list of greats, but thats as far as I would praise him!

[Ezzard]

I think "Legend" suggests that somehow the fighter transcended the sport. I agree that lewis didn't transcend the sport as much as the fighters you name. Holmes didn't transcend the sport but he was one of the greatest champions ever.

For me Johnson, Dempsey, Louis, Marciano and Ali were legends. Tyson has a big following now but I wonder how long that will last. A generation or 2 down the line Mike may not be quite as venerated as he was when he was fighting. The ear biting surrender against Holyfield might easily equate with Liston's surrender to Ali.