Do English boxers Suck

[expe]

How many countries have a stronger group of boxers than the UK (since you didn't just mention English boxers)?

Not many.

Germany does.

That's very debatable and Germany is among the strongest anyway. I think the German talent drops more after the first few boxers, with the talent from the UK being clearly superior overall. I'm also addressing only male boxers as the OP limits his discussion to them.

BoxRec's P4P top 25

Marco Huck 556 37(26)-2(1)-1
Juergen Braehmer 457 44(32)-2-0
Felix Sturm 451 39(18)-4(1)-2
Arthur Abraham 441 40(28)-4(1)-0
Robert Stieglitz 420 47(27)-4(2)-0
Christian Hammer 334 16(10)-3(2)-0
Erkan Teper 304 13(9)-0-0
Francesco Pianeta 287 30(17)-1(1)-1
Jack Culcay 226 17(10)-1-0
Manuel Charr 205 26(15)-2(2)-0
Firat Arslan 177 34(21)-7(3)-2
Robin Krasniqi 170 42(16)-3-0
Edmund Gerber 140 24(15)-2(1)-0
Karo Murat 136 25(15)-2(1)-1
Juergen Doberstein 110 16(4)-1-1
Dimitri Sartison 108 31(19)-2(2)-0
Robert Woge 91 12(10)-1-0
Vincent Feigenbutz 88 14(13)-1(1)-0
Enrico Koelling 88 14(4)-0-0
Eduard Gutknecht 87 25(9)-3(1)-1
Nick Klappert 81 19(13)-1-0
Dominic Boesel 71 16(5)-0-0
Bernard Donfack 70 20(11)-11(1)-3
Besar Nimaniy 69 17(14)-0-0
Konstantin Airich 67 21(17)-9(4)-2

vs

Carl Froch 1016 33(24)-2-0
Kell Brook 637 32(22)-0-0
Tyson Fury 561 22(16)-0-0
Amir Khan 443 29(19)-3(2)-0
Dereck Chisora 431 20(13)-4(1)-0
Martin Murray 427 28(12)-1-1
Carl Frampton 390 18(13)-0-0
James DeGale 390 19(13)-1-0
Frankie Gavin 344 19(12)-1-0
Ovill McKenzie 338 23(12)-12(3)-0
Ola Afolabi 324 21(10)-3-4
Billy Joe Saunders 320 20(11)-0-0
Matthew Macklin 311 30(20)-5(3)-0
Kevin Mitchell 302 38(28)-2(2)-0
George Groves 293 19(15)-2(2)-0
Tony Bellew 292 22(14)-2(1)-1
Scott Quigg 282 28(21)-0-2
Ricky Burns 275 36(11)-4-1
Lee Selby 271 19(7)-1-0
Nathan Cleverly 264 28(14)-1(1)-0
Anthony Crolla 246 28(11)-4(1)-1
David Price 241 18(15)-2(2)-0
Brian Rose 222 25(7)-2(2)-1
Terry Flanagan 215 25(9)-0-0
Stephen Smith 207 20 (12)-1-0

Huck - Serbian
Abraham - Armenian
Stieglitz - Russian
Hammer - Romanian
Pianeta - Italian
Culcay - Ecuadorian
Charr - Lebanese/Syrian
Krasniqi - Kosovan
Gerber - Kazakh
Murat - Iraqi/Armenian
Doberstein - Kazakh
Sartison - Kazakh
Gutknecht - Kazakh
Donfack - Cameroonian
Nimani -Kosovan
Airich - Kazakh

That's 16 of Germany's top 25 as boxrec sees it, foreign born, some of those may have moved to Germany at a very young age and could possibly be called German, but the majority of that list are foreign. Of ours Ovill's Jamaican and Del Boy is from Zimbabwe, although Dereck especially definitely sees himself as British, but that's 2 of 25, not 16. The top levels are very similar if you include Germany's foreigners, but the gap in depth as you go down the list is huge, world champions like McDonnell, Hall and Butler don't make our top 25, whereas ze Germans have some very average fighters floating around the bottom of their list, Airich would be 88th in Britain based on his boxrec points currently, but he's 25th in Germany and would be 5th in his homeland of Kazakhstan.

[chad]

I blame Eddie Hearn

[crusader]

Huck - Serbian
Abraham - Armenian
Stieglitz - Russian
Hammer - Romanian
Pianeta - Italian
Culcay - Ecuadorian
Charr - Lebanese/Syrian
Krasniqi - Kosovan
Gerber - Kazakh
Murat - Iraqi/Armenian
Doberstein - Kazakh
Sartison - Kazakh
Gutknecht - Kazakh
Donfack - Cameroonian
Nimani -Kosovan
Airich - Kazakh

That's 16 of Germany's top 25 as boxrec sees it, foreign born, some of those may have moved to Germany at a very young age and could possibly be called German, but the majority of that list are foreign. Of ours Ovill's Jamaican and Del Boy is from Zimbabwe, although Dereck especially definitely sees himself as British, but that's 2 of 25, not 16. The top levels are very similar if you include Germany's foreigners, but the gap in depth as you go down the list is huge, world champions like McDonnell, Hall and Butler don't make our top 25, whereas ze Germans have some very average fighters floating around the bottom of their list, Airich would be 88th in Britain based on his boxrec points currently, but he's 25th in Germany and would be 5th in his homeland of Kazakhstan.

I was going to remove some of the foreign born fighters, leaving only those who started boxing in Germany or only boxed for a bit prior to coming there, as they were largely developed by the German boxing system and arguably reflect it's strength. However, many exclusions would be debatable as nationality is a fuzzy concept and one can argue that even for those who came to Germany later their training there is still a large contributor to the success they've had. I think leaving them in also highlights the superiority of UK boxing, as it's clearly got better fighters overall even when each of the German listed fighters is included.

[sucracristo]

so many top fighters in the past 20 years were produced by the old soviet system
and are now from countries separate from russia, although lots of them are still russian.
i'm not so sure that after usa and mexico, russia hasn't put out more quality pros than uk,
especially if you include the pros who came from the old soviet system.
if you look at the number of cubans who defect and become would champions,
i would have to think at least per capita they are toward the top.
per capita, puerto rico, canada, and australia have to be up there, too, and maybe more
in the past panama and jamaica.
i would compare uk per capita more like germany, argentina, and japan (in the lower divisions).
every once in a while uk comes up with good world class fighters.
including ireland in the premise of this thread is pure douchebaggery, though.
what does andy lee (from limerick) have to do with english boxing?

[Yes We Can]

whats the issue with the likes of Murray, Macklin & Barker losing to Sergio. They were solid challengers, all 3 of which were underdogs, and all 3 of which had good moments in the fight.

Cleverly & Bellew lost to the 2 best people at light heavy.

Chisora has only lost to top guys.

Fury has yet to lose.

Frampton has a ko win over a current title holder at the weight.

quigg has shown good promise.

Froch is consensus number 2 in what has been a good division.

Brook, Groves & Degale may all be world class or very close to it.

Amir Khan has proven he is a top 10-15 guy at 147 and was top 2 or 3 at 140 for a decent period.

Ricky Burns had 1 world class win, which is more than most thought he would ever get.

[black panther]

I'd pick Khan over Garcia if they fought again but that's another story.

[dominik]

How many countries have a stronger group of boxers than the UK (since you didn't just mention English boxers)?

Not many.

Germany does.

they don't. Germany used to be strong in the 90s because many GDR fighters came over who had one of the best Amateur programs back then. but now nobody is fighting in the amateurs anymore in Germany except some immigrants because german mothers don't want their precious Boys to be punched in the face. my father wanted to send be to a boxing Club but my mother did not allow him to do so.

that leads to german Amateur boxing being almost dead and pro boxing following that way.

great britain on the other Hand has the strongest Amateur Programm in europe together with italy and some eastern countries. that Shows in the pros too, GB is probably the best boxing Country in the pros after the US and mexico. even russia is not stronger than GB in the pros because many of their best fighters are from other soviet countries (klitschko, golovkin, lomachenko).

[sucracristo]

even russia is not stronger than GB in the pros because many of their best fighters are from other soviet countries (klitschko, golovkin, lomachenko).

at the moment i don't think crimea has officially been annexed by russia but
there are lots of ranked guys from donetzk who are essentially in russia and
of course were born in russia. i'll leave them out.

starting heavy and going down:
ustinov, povetkin, lebedev, drozd, chakhkiev, kovalev, sukhostsky, kashtanov, vlasov, f. chudinov,
d. chudinov, magomedov, korobov, akavov, provodnikov, allakhverdiev, shafikov, petrov, klimov,
gradovich, shafikov, and i'm sure i left a few out

the world rankings in almost every division are littered with russians even if you only
count official current russian territory. most of those names either currently hold major
titles, or are scheduled to fight for major titles, or have recently challenged for major titles.

[drunkenpiper36]

Nah. I think that's a blanket statement. There are some pretty good UK figbters out there right now. They just don't account for the best in the world.

[nick885]

How many countries have a stronger group of boxers than the UK (since you didn't just mention English boxers)?

Not many.

Germany does.

And they're mostly from other countries.

[nick885]

If you go by population size uk has some brilliant boxers.

[Broomhall]

If you go by population size uk has some brilliant boxers.

I think this is the key. The UK probably has less pro boxers than are active in New York State. I think we produce a reasonable standard given the numbers of pros and amatuers we have active at any one time. We have a an ok number of average wbo/ibf etc champs and every now an again produce an exceptional fighter.

Didnt see too many yanks medal at the last Olympics, so I would also say this indicates the future for British boxing maybe better than the states. Of the guys you mentioned GGG is East European, Martinez is Argentinian, Chavez is mexican...

Perhaps the better question to ask is Given the size of the states why do so many american boxers suck?

[sucracristo]

GGG is East European

almost all of kazakhstan is on the continent of asia, and they qualify
for the olympics in the asian games.

[Yes We Can]

If you go by population size uk has some brilliant boxers.

I think this is the key. The UK probably has less pro boxers than are active in New York State. I think we produce a reasonable standard given the numbers of pros and amatuers we have active at any one time. We have a an ok number of average wbo/ibf etc champs and every now an again produce an exceptional fighter.

Didnt see too many yanks medal at the last Olympics, so I would also say this indicates the future for British boxing maybe better than the states. Of the guys you mentioned GGG is East European, Martinez is Argentinian, Chavez is mexican...

Perhaps the better question to ask is Given the size of the states why do so many american boxers suck?

America have no investment in the AM scene right now, seemingly the guys are turning pro younger and if anything it is helping there pro careers. AM scene isnt a great barometer for pro success.

[keirw]

The US attracts fighters from all other the world, this helps US prospects as they get to train and spar with Russians, Ukrainians, Mexicans, Filipinos, Argentinians, Cubans etc.. Which helps them to become more rounded fighters.
UK prospects have to travel for that kind of sparring, look at the guys who travel to the state's for training camps, a lot of the guys they spar aren't even American.

[BAD INTENTIONS]

I'd pick Khan over Garcia if they fought again but that's another story.

Wow, the level of absolute delusion that exists in the minds of British boxing fans ...

[black panther]

I'd pick Khan over Garcia if they fought again but that's another story.

Wow, the level of absolute delusion that exists in the minds of British boxing fans ...

And the absolute arrogance and narrow mindedness that exists in ...no I won't say US boxing fans. You can't generalize a whole nation based upon a few comments on a boxing board.

It wouldn't surprise me if Garcia won again; Khan doesn't have the best chin in the world and Garcia can crack.

But it's hardly delusional to think with the discipline he now displays under Virgil Hunter, he boxes his way to a win over Garcia, given his performance in the first fight.

I hope the rematch gets made.

[dominik]

England is probably the best Country in the HW Division. British HW is very strong right now with fury, chisora, Price, Joshua and if he Comes back david haye. very strong Group and most of them are still quite Young.

[nick885]

There's an awful lot of Anglophobia on this site.

[GilFilmore]

The mainly suck when they come fight in the states

[world ranked]

The mainly suck when they come fight in the states

Is the any fighter from the UK that fought over here more than once that did get KO'd or outclassed at some point only person I came with was Calzaghe in the last 30 yrs

[crusader]

Thing is that when fighters from the UK come to the states for relatively high-profile fights it's usually as the B side against a top opponent, such as Sergio or GGG to name recent examples. Many of them could easily win a bunch of fights in the states if they were facing the opposition that is common for a lot of American prospects, contenders, and titlists, but those fights usually happen in the UK.

[handsofstone]

Kell Brook, talent-wise is levels above Rees,Purdy and Rose and even Barker and Bellew plus some other fighters who've travelled to the States but i do genuinely feel he's got the beating of Porter whereas the others ive mentioned it was a case of nothing to lose(Barker not so much),make the most of the experience,enjoy the moment etc but IMO Kell Brook cannot only win on Saturday but in time can be one of the best fighters in the world and be in the big,big fights

Bold words and they might come crashing down as soon as Saturday but Brook isnt cannon fodder and the next Brit to be bashed up and sent packing back home never to be seen again,a lot of people including a lot of respected US writers etc thought Khan was a p4p'er before the Peterson fight and Brooks every bit as good as him and should if he can capatalize on Saturdays oppurtunity eclispe Amir

[GilFilmore]

The mainly suck when they come fight in the states

Is the any fighter from the UK that fought over here more than once that did get KO'd or outclassed at some point only person I came with was Calzaghe in the last 30 yrs

Calzaghe is the only one who had the best success. Hatton did well until getting blasted out by Mayweather and Pacquiao.

Tyson Fury had the Steve Cunningham fight.

Besides that, English fighters suck in the USA

[world ranked]

The mainly suck when they come fight in the states

Is the any fighter from the UK that fought over here more than once that did get KO'd or outclassed at some point only person I came with was Calzaghe in the last 30 yrs

Calzaghe is the only one who had the best success. Hatton did well until getting blasted out by Mayweather and Pacquiao.

Tyson Fury had the Steve Cunningham fight.

Besides that, English fighters suck in the USA

There ones that had success but at some point when they came over that got dominated.

Fury fights a couple of more times its bound to happen if you follow the previous fighters.