Lennox aint a Legend!!!

Crease · Post by **Crease** » 20 Dec 2005, 12:12

So Ezzard,
Where do you rate the 4 current heavyweight champions,

WBC- Hasim Rahman,
The WBC is seen perhaps as the linear world title but its crediatbility has seriuosy been affected with the retirments of Lewis and Klitchsko. I don't think Rahman deserved to be awarded this title.

WBA- Niklai Valuev
The big Russian beat Ruiz for the title, I don't know much about him, but I've been told that some champions are reluctant to fight him with his commdanding record. I think he should award James Toney a title shot as they both beat Ruiz for the title.

WBO- Lamon Brewster
I must say that I think that Brewster is the weak link between all the chanmpions, he just doesn't excite me at all. I think he should give Wladimir Klitschko a title shot.

IBF- Chris Byrd
I think Byrd is the strongest of all the world champions, I really wanted to see him and Lewis fight but after LKewis retired I wanted him asnd Ruiz to do battle, I would like to see that now Byrd vs Ruiz for the IBF title.

It seems like a long time ago now (becuase they're all so divided and separate) that Lewis held all these titles, doesn't it?

Where would you rate these 4 boxers and John Ruiz?

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 20 Dec 2005, 12:21

WBC - I think it's wrong to hand over a title to anyone. It's just fishy when that happens. It's better to arrange a fight with the next best contender. Rahman is pretty lacklustre but he might be the best of the 4 title holders.

WBA - Valuev has at least got people talking about boxing again. He basically has sideshow appeal. I've only seen him twice and so much will depend upon his chin. He is not goign to eb a great champion but I'd settle for a dignified one at this moment, someone who brought respect back to the sport.

IBF - Byrd has the skills but not the punch. I also think that his time may have past. His style requires better fitness.

WBO -Brewster, a puncher but I don't see much else from this guy.

Ruiz is a decent pro in that he tries but his style si awful on the eye and he's been beaten by 2 middleweights.

I'm not enamoured with any of them. A tournament is much needed but whoever wins will hardly be a big draw. If anything I'd probably like to see Toney win the whole thing.

barry · Post by **barry** » 20 Dec 2005, 12:29

>>>I don't think Rahman deserved to be awarded this title.<<<

He deserved it just as much as Vitali did when it was given to him, but in actuality, neither one deserved it, they should have had to fight the top opponents for it and COrrie Sanders and Monte Barrett were not the other top heavyweights.

Crease · Post by **Crease** » 20 Dec 2005, 12:47

Its frustrating like when you look back to the days of Marciano (40s & 50s) and Ali (60s & 70s) when you knew that there was only 1 world champions and htta everyone aspirded to challenge that guy, nowadays theres 4 clampitts runnging about holding this plaque.

I'd love to see a tournament myself, I think the best Heavyweight boxer today is Chris Byrd though.

kick asner · Post by **kick asner** » 20 Dec 2005, 16:26

barry wrote:>>>when he did lose he came back and avenged both losses by knockout.<<<

He most certainly did not knock out Oliver McCall, and he had free shots to the head...no I think Lewis was very fortunate that McCall had a breakdown in that bout, or the outcome may have been just as the first...he knocked Rahman out, but he should have done that to start with.

That is right, he beat Mccall by strange circumstance. It was still somewhat of a vindication.

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 20 Dec 2005, 16:31

Crease wrote:Lennox Lewis should never be called "A LEGEND" he certainely is not, I would even doubt calling him a great fighter!
HERE'S WhY...

Lennox won the Olympic Gold in 1988, he started professional boxing (and was very careful to avoid a certain Mr. Mike Tyson). Remember that there was a 4 year gap (1992-95) where Tyson was elligible to fight...

Lewis excels against good fighters becoming British, Commonwealth and European Heavyweight Champion establisihing himself as an International boxer. Tyson was already the reigniong world champion and he couldn't challenge Lennox for any of these titles due to his nationality.

Lewis then is crowned WBC champion without even fighting anyone for the belt. Tyson was away and Bowe wouldn't fight him. Lewis routinely defended his title before losing to McCall (1994), a capable boxer at best!

Lewis regains his composure and regains the title (1997). He beats a few capable boxers before accepting an offer he couldn't refuse, Evander Holyfield (the man who I say fisnished Mike Tyson) who held the other 3 major world titles wanted a re-unification match to decide the 1 true world champion, Lewis agrees.

Lewis and Holyfield battled to a stalemate (1999) and a halk year later fight the re-match which Lewis narrowly wins on points.

(I feel disgusted at this becuase both fights were extremely close and I feel that Holyfield was overlooked from this point forward due to this loss. I my opinion he couldv'e very easily have been a Holyfield victory, it was that close).

Lewis is now the undisputed world champion holding all 4 major titles, WBC, WBA, WBO + IBF belts.

However Lewis is an extremely intelligent boxer (he should've been a politian) and he relinquishes his WBA title (2000) so that he wouldn't have to fight a dangerous Mexican called John Ruiz coming up through the ranks!

Lewis defeats Grant, Botha and Tua, ignoring Ruiz and Tysons revival by fighting lesser boxers. Notice that Lewis never fought the world no 2 during hsi reign. Lewis picks Rahman which should've been another easy fight but he loses and uses his big mouth to gaina return fight which he wins (2001).

Aty this time the press are mocking Lewis and "The Lion" decides to fight a run-down Mike Tyson (who wasn't half the man he was 10 years before) and wins by KO (2002).

After this fight the press go easier on Lewis and he notices another dangerous fighter coming up called Chris Byrd and vacates his IBF title so he wouldn't have to fight this guy.

But what Lewis didn't forsee was a storm on the horizon from the East, Kltichsko had earned a title shot at Lewis and the champ had no more major titles to give up, he had to fight.

The big fight ened with a Lewis victory due to a stoppage but after a fight analysis, it turned out that Lewis used his head. The public creid for a re-maytch but LEWIS RETIRED FROM BOXING SOI THAT HE WOULDN'T HAVE TO BE PRESSURED INTO FIGHTING AGAIN!

So is Lewis a legend after all this?

How could Lewis have avoided Tyson, when he didn't turn pro until 1989?

By the time they could have fought, Tyson was locked up!

The only realistic time they could have had a semi competitive fight, was in 1996 & Tyson avoided Lewis & took on the supposedly shot Holyfield & got his rear end kicked.

Lewis dominated his era, never ducked anybody, showed courage, fortitude, adaptability & defeated every man he faced.

He is a legend, nuff said.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 20 Dec 2005, 16:33

kick asner wrote:
barry wrote:>>>when he did lose he came back and avenged both losses by knockout.<<<

He most certainly did not knock out Oliver McCall, and he had free shots to the head...no I think Lewis was very fortunate that McCall had a breakdown in that bout, or the outcome may have been just as the first...he knocked Rahman out, but he should have done that to start with.
That is right, he beat Mccall by strange circumstance. It was still somewhat of a vindication.

And it can hardly be held against LL that McCall went a bit batty that night. Perhaps the fear and pressure of fighting the dreaded LL caused his breakdown?

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 20 Dec 2005, 17:00

Decagon wrote:I'd have trouble calling anyone other than Muhammad Ali, Jack Dempsey, Jack Johnson, Sugar Ray Robinson, Harry Greb, Sam Langford and Henry Armstrong "legends."

Joe gans, joe louis,archie moore, rocky marciano???

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 20 Dec 2005, 17:06

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
Decagon wrote:I'd have trouble calling anyone other than Muhammad Ali, Jack Dempsey, Jack Johnson, Sugar Ray Robinson, Harry Greb, Sam Langford and Henry Armstrong "legends."
Joe gans, joe louis,archie moore, rocky marciano???

And don't forget Larry "The Legend" Donald.

thunderfromdownunder · Post by **thunderfromdownunder** » 21 Dec 2005, 00:58

well said syntaxerror

i think lewis is definetly one of historys best heavyweights

Crease · Post by **Crease** » 21 Dec 2005, 10:59

Syntax Error,

Why do you think a "Legend" like Lennox Lewis (who at the time was the undisputed king of Heavyweight boxing) gave up 2 major world titles, which he fought extremly hard for.

As I've already said,
In 2000 he gave up the WBA title,
In 2002 he gave up the IBF title,

Could you imagine True Legends like Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano or Muhammad Ali just casually surrendering world title belts?
No, neither can I...

How do you explain him giving up major world titles AND how do you explain his reluctance to fight Vitali Klitchsko a second time after his controversial first victory (if thats the right word for it)...

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 21 Dec 2005, 11:35

Crease wrote:Syntax Error,

Why do you think a "Legend" like Lennox Lewis (who at the time was the undisputed king of Heavyweight boxing) gave up 2 major world titles, which he fought extremly hard for.

As I've already said,
In 2000 he gave up the WBA title,
In 2002 he gave up the IBF title,

Could you imagine True Legends like Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano or Muhammad Ali just casually surrendering world title belts?
No, neither can I...

How do you explain him giving up major world titles AND how do you explain his reluctance to fight Vitali Klitchsko a second time after his controversial first victory (if thats the right word for it)...

Actually, my guess is that Louis and Rocky would both have had a hard time dealing with the four families, just as current fighters have problems and relinquish "titles". That's not to say that I think LL is a legend like Louis or Rocky or John L.

Not sure why you are saying that LL's win over VK was controversial. VK sustained a horific cut over his eye and was pretty much beat up when the ringside physician stopped the fight. This is a very common occurence in boxing and is usually only controversial when the damage sustained appears rather minor. And there was nothing minor about the damage done to VK that night.

Crease · Post by **Crease** » 21 Dec 2005, 11:48

Certainly the damage was significant and I don't blamce the medics for stopping the fight, but as the pundits watched the replays of the fight, the damage was administerted through a Lewis headbutt.

So, is wasn;t a punch that quashed Klitschsko's chances for a world title, it was a headbutt (which we all know is illegal in boxing).

The British media were unimpressed with the style of Lewis' victory and demanded a re-match but Lewis declined retiring from the field of boxing.

Why do you, John L, think that Lewis retired and declined 1 last fight, a grudge match against Klitchsko to prove once a t for all who the better fighter was?

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 21 Dec 2005, 11:55

Crease wrote:Certainly the damage was significant and I don't blamce the medics for stopping the fight, but as the pundits watched the replays of the fight, the damage was administerted through a Lewis headbutt.

So, is wasn;t a punch that quashed Klitschsko's chances for a world title, it was a headbutt (which we all know is illegal in boxing).

The British media were unimpressed with the style of Lewis' victory and demanded a re-match but Lewis declined retiring from the field of boxing.

Why do you, John L, think that Lewis retired and declined 1 last fight, a grudge match against Klitchsko to prove once a t for all who the better fighter was?

Hmmm, I didn't see a headbutt. Do you or any of these "pundits" have a clip of this headbutt?

As far as him retiring -- why not? He took his lumps in a long and quality career. He beat VK by TKO after inflicting heavy damage, and if you watch the last two rounds of the fight, particaularly the last 30 secs of the last round, LL was really getting the better of it and VK was holding on.

Lewis wasn't getting any younger, and I can't imagine anyone being overly critical of him wanting to avoid getting hit in the head more than is necessary. Certainly, VK has now done a fine job of avoiding anymore ring damage.

Crease · Post by **Crease** » 21 Dec 2005, 12:22

So John L. Since Leoox Lewis has left boxing, who do you think is the best Heavyweight today?

I've started a poll up on Current Scene, everybody visit and vote.

J · Post by J » 21 Dec 2005, 12:59

Crease wrote:Syntax Error,

Why do you think a "Legend" like Lennox Lewis (who at the time was the undisputed king of Heavyweight boxing) gave up 2 major world titles, which he fought extremly hard for.

As I've already said,
In 2000 he gave up the WBA title,
In 2002 he gave up the IBF title,

Could you imagine True Legends like Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano or Muhammad Ali just casually surrendering world title belts?
No, neither can I...

How do you explain him giving up major world titles AND how do you explain his reluctance to fight Vitali Klitchsko a second time after his controversial first victory (if thats the right word for it)...

SYNTAX GREAT POSTS.

The mintue someone mentions the word legend and Rocky marciano I knwo they are talking out of their arse. sorry crease but thats my opinion.

only 6 world title defences aginst old men and light heavyweights past their best and la starza & don cockell well if that makes you a fornicating legend we have thousands.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 21 Dec 2005, 13:18

J wrote:
Crease wrote:Syntax Error,

Why do you think a "Legend" like Lennox Lewis (who at the time was the undisputed king of Heavyweight boxing) gave up 2 major world titles, which he fought extremly hard for.

As I've already said,
In 2000 he gave up the WBA title,
In 2002 he gave up the IBF title,

Could you imagine True Legends like Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano or Muhammad Ali just casually surrendering world title belts?
No, neither can I...

How do you explain him giving up major world titles AND how do you explain his reluctance to fight Vitali Klitchsko a second time after his controversial first victory (if thats the right word for it)...
SYNTAX GREAT POSTS.

The mintue someone mentions the word legend and Rocky marciano I knwo they are talking out of their arse. sorry crease but thats my opinion.

only 6 world title defences aginst old men and light heavyweights past their best and la starza & don cockell well if that makes you a fornicating legend we have thousands.

J

Being a legend is not necessarily about how good you were in the ring. I think it's more to do with how popular and well recieved you are. Marciano has iconic status for his 49-0, high KO percentage and his come from behind wins. Larry Holmes is a lot less well recieved and hardly considered a legend but was a greater fighter.

J · Post by J » 22 Dec 2005, 08:21

totally agree with you but surely as boxing nutrs we can see past the man in the street opinion.

your name sake is more worthy of legendary a status in my view.

one of the greatest light heavies ever to lace up gloves.

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 22 Dec 2005, 08:56

Crease wrote:Syntax Error,

Why do you think a "Legend" like Lennox Lewis (who at the time was the undisputed king of Heavyweight boxing) gave up 2 major world titles, which he fought extremly hard for.

As I've already said,
In 2000 he gave up the WBA title,
In 2002 he gave up the IBF title,

Could you imagine True Legends like Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano or Muhammad Ali just casually surrendering world title belts?
No, neither can I...

How do you explain him giving up major world titles AND how do you explain his reluctance to fight Vitali Klitchsko a second time after his controversial first victory (if thats the right word for it)...

WBA & IBF or whatever they are called mean nothing nowadays.

You can have 7 or 8 belts, lose 6 & still call yourself champ.

He gave up those belts, because ridiculous boxing politics allows such a situation.

I don't know why he didn't fight VK again, but in all honesty, Lewis had earned the right to bow out of boxing on his own terms.

Why should he come back & get battered up to satisfy others?

He was 38 & ageing fast, maybe he just didn't feel that he had it anymore.

He took a hell of a lot of punishment in the VK fight & still managed to win, despite that.

You cannot begrudge a fighter who has paid his dues, bowing out on his own terms.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 22 Dec 2005, 09:35

J wrote:totally agree with you but surely as boxing nutrs we can see past the man in the street opinion.

your name sake is more worthy of legendary a status in my view.

one of the greatest light heavies ever to lace up gloves.

Yes, agree on all counts. Problem is though, for the sport we love to really bloom again we need the man on the streets.

Amazing how little Charles gets in terms of plaudits in the mainstream press.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 22 Dec 2005, 12:23

Lennox was an outstanding fighter. I used to hate him for beating Evander. but apart from two careless Ko defeats that he avenged easily, he deserves credit for racking up 16 title defenses. none of today's men are capable of this, and lewis' absense reinforces how good he is.

it's no secret that the american press hated him. every time they'd write about how whichever of the 'new/young heavyweights' was going to beat him. sure, rahman managed it once, but Lewis outclassed Golota, Tua, Grant, Briggs - and showed Rahman who's boss in fight two.

Lewis had to wait ages chasing Bowe, Tyson, Evander. He got two of 'em. Tyson was just a payday by that time, but Evander was still capable, he'd just stopped Tyson and Moorer!

he's the only Big heavyweight who really made his style work with any consistency. Bowe was never the same after One title defense. Vitali's body wasn't designed for the stresses of world title boxing, etc

Controversial · Post by **Controversial** » 25 Dec 2005, 00:59

Crease wrote:Lennox Lewis should never be called "A LEGEND" he certainely is not, I would even doubt calling him a great fighter!
HERE'S WhY...

Lennox won the Olympic Gold in 1988, he started professional boxing (and was very careful to avoid a certain Mr. Mike Tyson). Remember that there was a 4 year gap (1992-95) where Tyson was elligible to fight...

Lewis excels against good fighters becoming British, Commonwealth and European Heavyweight Champion establisihing himself as an International boxer. Tyson was already the reigniong world champion and he couldn't challenge Lennox for any of these titles due to his nationality.

Lewis then is crowned WBC champion without even fighting anyone for the belt. Tyson was away and Bowe wouldn't fight him. Lewis routinely defended his title before losing to McCall (1994), a capable boxer at best!

Lewis regains his composure and regains the title (1997). He beats a few capable boxers before accepting an offer he couldn't refuse, Evander Holyfield (the man who I say fisnished Mike Tyson) who held the other 3 major world titles wanted a re-unification match to decide the 1 true world champion, Lewis agrees.

Lewis and Holyfield battled to a stalemate (1999) and a halk year later fight the re-match which Lewis narrowly wins on points.

(I feel disgusted at this becuase both fights were extremely close and I feel that Holyfield was overlooked from this point forward due to this loss. I my opinion he couldv'e very easily have been a Holyfield victory, it was that close).

Lewis is now the undisputed world champion holding all 4 major titles, WBC, WBA, WBO + IBF belts.

However Lewis is an extremely intelligent boxer (he should've been a politian) and he relinquishes his WBA title (2000) so that he wouldn't have to fight a dangerous Mexican called John Ruiz coming up through the ranks!

Lewis defeats Grant, Botha and Tua, ignoring Ruiz and Tysons revival by fighting lesser boxers. Notice that Lewis never fought the world no 2 during hsi reign. Lewis picks Rahman which should've been another easy fight but he loses and uses his big mouth to gaina return fight which he wins (2001).

Aty this time the press are mocking Lewis and "The Lion" decides to fight a run-down Mike Tyson (who wasn't half the man he was 10 years before) and wins by KO (2002).

After this fight the press go easier on Lewis and he notices another dangerous fighter coming up called Chris Byrd and vacates his IBF title so he wouldn't have to fight this guy.

But what Lewis didn't forsee was a storm on the horizon from the East, Kltichsko had earned a title shot at Lewis and the champ had no more major titles to give up, he had to fight.

The big fight ened with a Lewis victory due to a stoppage but after a fight analysis, it turned out that Lewis used his head. The public creid for a re-maytch but LEWIS RETIRED FROM BOXING SOI THAT HE WOULDN'T HAVE TO BE PRESSURED INTO FIGHTING AGAIN!

So is Lewis a legend after all this?

I disagree. Lennox Lewis beat every fighter he fought, albeit in rematches with two of them. His stoppage losses were to two big, hard hitting heavyweights whose punches would have hurt any fighter.

Remember when Lewis fought many of his fights the opponents were considered good fighters and some were unbeaten -

Tony Tucker 49-1-0 (only loss to Tyson)
Henry Akinwande 32-0-1
Shannon Briggs 30-1-0
Michael Grant 31-0-0
David Tua 37-1-0
Mavrovic 27-0-0

Lewis also beat some of the biggest punchers of modern times - Tua, Tyson, Klitschko, Rahman, Mercer, Briggs, Bruno, McCall, Morrison, Ruddock, Weaver and Mason.

Lewis also won the European title in only his 14th fight and the British title in his 15th fight.

I'm in no doubt Lewis would have beat Tyson whenever they fought, Lewis would have been too strong and big for Tyson and would have given Mike a boxing lesson.

He would have beat many of the past world champions and in my opinion is vastly under-rated.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 25 Dec 2005, 01:17

yes but lewis missed out on fights with a prime bowe(not lewis's fault), prime holyfield, and a younger mike tyson. those were the 3 biggest guys in early to mid 90s and lennox did not fight any of them till much later on. holyfield fought a prime bowe, prime lewis, still dangerous tyson.

Les Darcy · Post by **Les Darcy** » 28 Dec 2005, 02:16

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:yes but lewis missed out on fights with a prime bowe(not lewis's fault), prime holyfield, and a younger mike tyson. those were the 3 biggest guys in early to mid 90s and lennox did not fight any of them till much later on. holyfield fought a prime bowe, prime lewis, still dangerous tyson.

Was that his fault though?
He was mandatory to Tyson in 1996 and Tyson gave up his belt so he could fight a seemingly old and washed up Holyfield.
I don't think blame can be placed on either Lewis or Holyfield for the fight not happening earlier, but Holyfield was more then capable when Lewis fought him, as someone previously pointed out, he'd just stopped Tyson and Moorer.
Not many heavyweights of the past can match up to this resume of wins:

Andrew Golota
David Tua
Mike Tyson
Vitali Klitschko
Ray Mercer
Shannon Briggs
Frank Bruno
Tony Tucker
Tommy Morrison
Donovan Ruddock
Evander Holyfield
Gary Mason

A good list of solid boxers and dangerous punchers in there, there aren't too many fighters who's resume matches up as well as that, throw Bowe in who clearly ducked Lewis and went on to fight Jesse Ferguson I think it was, and it's hard to come to any other conclusion other then Lewis was a feared and dangerous heavyweight, and definately an all-time great.

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 29 Dec 2005, 10:06

Lennox Lewis was the best HW of his era and one of the top 10 in history. Does that make him a legend, imo it does. How many heavyweights in history would have beaten him........Ali, Holmes, Johnson, Foreman, a peak Tyson or Liston maybe. That alone makes Lennox a legend. Also, look at the best HW fighters in his era, Holyfield who he beat (twice imo), Bowe who ducked him, Tyson who ducked him until he needed the money when well past his sell by date. Lennox ducked no-one, Bowe tossed the WBC title away rather than face Lennox, Tyson paid Lennox several million stand aside money in 96-97. As for Lennox's defeats, they only happened when he took his eye off the ball and got beaten by lesser fighters who he didnt take seriously. Lennox also hammered McCall and Rahman in re-matches. I only think people knock Lennox because he wasnt a bigmouth and he used intelligent tactics in most of his fights. Also, Americans knocked him because he wasnt American, and some Brits knock him cos he grew up in Canada. Give the man credit where its due!

Lennox aint a Legend!!!

Lennox Lewis, A Legend?

Lennox

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