Another boxing film mystery

[klompton]

Here is another one. I am 95% certain that this film features 1930s/40s middleweight contender Ernie Vigh against an unidentified opponent. Any ideas who this might be?

In this shot the fighter I believe is Vigh has his back to the camera. Note the referee.

Vigh is facing the camera in this shot

The following two photos give us a look at the opponents face


In this shot we see the opponent going down in the first round

This shot gives us a good profile view of the opponent as he rises from the knockdown

Round card

Here are a couple more profile shots of the opponent


Here is the opponent after throwing a punch, his hair has flown up a bit

Another couple of shots of the opponents face


Vigh sitting down between rounds with his trainer (who I believe to be Nick Florio) looking through the ropes

A shot showing the lights above the ring which may identify the venue

The opponent down in the 8th

Vigh is walking toward the opponents corner after the fight with one of his handlers


It looks to me like the fight ended in the 8th round either by decision or TKO

[DaveyMac]

According to his record Vigh's only 8 round stoppages are Gene Molnar and Babe Orgovan.

So now you just need to find pictures of them and compare :)

[DaveyMac]

Klomtpon I did a little poking around on Babe Orgovan and updated his boxrec page with the info. I found a bad sideways newspaper picture of him in 1982, but it could be him.
Anyway his real name was Erno Orgovan and he has a son named Erno Jr. who I believe lives in San Antonio and as recently as 2006 was online looking for information about his father.
He might be able to tell you whether or not the man in the film is his Dad.

[klompton]

Klomtpon I did a little poking around on Babe Orgovan and updated his boxrec page with the info. I found a bad sideways newspaper picture of him in 1982, but it could be him.
Anyway his real name was Erno Orgovan and he has a son named Erno Jr. who I believe lives in San Antonio and as recently as 2006 was online looking for information about his father.
He might be able to tell you whether or not the man in the film is his Dad.

LOL, I found all of this last night as well. You and I were on the same track. The problem is I also found an old photo of Orgovan in Ring magazine and he doesnt look like this guy.

Molnar doesnt either (he looks like he could be Rocky Marciano's older brother here is a pic:

http://fultonhistory.com/Newspaper%2010 ... ehtml&.pdf

Ive narrowed it down to these possible opponents:

Babe Orgovan Not Likely
Bep Van Klavern No
Georgie Abrams Not Likely
Harvey Massey
Jay Macedon
Gene Molnar Not Likely
Coley Welch Not Likely
Billy Soose Not Likely
Steve Mamakos Not Likely
Tony Martin Not Likely
Johnny Colan Colan looks the most like this guy but he won this fight and I dont see how thats possible given the film.
Lou Schwartz
Augie Arrellano Not Likely

The film came in an original box which had written in pencil "Garden fight" "Soose" and was addressed to Kodak (for processing) from a woman who lived down the street from Vigh in Newburgh. However I believe this film was in the wrong box as that is definately not Soose. So, somewhere out there is an 8mm film of Soose-Vigh...

Here is Lou Schwartz: http://fultonhistory.com/Newspaper%205/ ... ehtml&.pdf

and here:

http://fultonhistory.com/Newspaper%205/ ... ehtml&.pdf

Here is Babe Orgovan:
http://fultonhistory.com/Newspaper%2014 ... ehtml&.pdf

and here

http://fultonhistory.com/Newspaper%2019 ... ehtml&.pdf

Jay Macedon and Harvey Massey are the only two I havent seen photos of. The others dont really look like this guy.

[DaveyMac]

Gene Molnar definitely looks like a mini-Marciano!
I'm impressed you found the photo I couldn't find anything much at all on Gene. I suspect he was born circa 1912, but I can't be for sure.

[BoxBuzz]

Another mystery........just when the other one had just been solved. I'll enjoy seeing where this leads.

[dbomareto]

Hi,

Erno "Babe" Orgovan is my grandfather. I'd be more than happy to examine any photos. If you have any photos of my grandpa, I'd LOVE to see him!!

Thank you!!

[dbomareto]

Erno "Babe" Orgovan is my grandfather. I am very interested in seeing anything you have of him.

[klompton]

Im revisiting this again:

This is what I have so far:

Im 90% sure this footage of Ernie Vigh. The film is a standard 8mm home movie with an edge

code identifying the film as dating from July-Dec 1939 or anytime in 1947. I contacted the

Eastman-Kodak museum in Rochester and they stated that it was unlikely the film would have

been used anytime more than a year after the dates above. Possible but not likely.

Below are more photos of the film:

Pics showing the fighter I think to be Vigh





Pics showing the opponent





round card, I believe these would be helpful in identifying the venue



Vigh's cornerman. In the early 40s, in his heyday, Vigh was trained by Dan Florio and managed by Sol Gold. Prior to being managed by Gold he was managed by Harry Christie. I do not know if Gold managed him after he returned from the service in the mid/late 40s but if someone else managed and trained him it would point to this fight being from circa 1947


The fight went at least 8 rounds



Shortly before the stoppage vigh had hammered the opponent to the canvas


Vigh was hammering the fighter here and it looks like the ref stopped it. If not then the bell rang at this point.

Vigh after the conclusion of the fight

Vigh shaking hands with his opponent after the fight, note the microphone which does not

look like the microphone for MSG at this time.

Vigh leaving the ring



Below is a list of the fights it could possibly be:

1949-12-08 Tony Bertucci Broadway Arena, Brooklyn, US L SD 8
1949-10-27 Vic Costa Sunnyside Garden, Sunnyside, Queens, US W PTS 8
1949-09-26 Jimmy Mills Laurel Garden, Newark, US W PTS 8
1947-06-25 Joe Bennett Jamaica Stadium or Jerome W PTS 8
1942-01-09 Coley Welch Madison Square Garden, New York, US W PTS 8
1941-12-23 Augie Arellano New York Coliseum, Bronx, US W PTS 8
1941-11-28 Lou Schwartz Madison Square Garden, New York, US W PTS 8
1941-09-10 Johnny Colan Chicago Stadium Outdoor Arena, Chicago, US L TKO 8
1941-07-23 Tony Martin Chicago Stadium Outdoor Arena, Chicago, US L PTS 10
1941-06-05 Coley Welch Exposition Building, Portland, US L PTS 10
1941-04-30 Steve Mamakos Uline Arena, Washington, US L UD 10
1941-03-07 Billy Soose Madison Square Garden, New York, US L PTS 12
1941-02-07 Billy Soose Madison Square Garden, New York, US L UD 10
1941-01-03 Coley Welch Madison Square Garden, New York, US W PTS 8
1940-12-17 Gene Molnar New York Coliseum, Bronx, US W TKO 8
1940-11-26 Jay Macedon New York Coliseum, Bronx, US W PTS 8
1940-04-30 Babe Orgovan New York Coliseum, Bronx, US W TKO 8
1940-03-26 Georgie Abrams New York Coliseum, Bronx, US L PTS 8
1940-01-09 Bep van Klaveren New York Coliseum, Bronx, US L PTS 8

Of those above I believe we can safely disregard Vigh's losses as he appears to be in complete control here and scores at least two knockdowns, one in the first and one in the 8th, maybe more. I also believe we can eliminate Lou Schwartz and Augie Arellano (they look nothing like this guy).

My #1 suspect is Joe Bennett but I cant even confirm if this fight legitimately took place and cant find a photo of Bennett. Most of the others dont really look like this guy which brings up the possibility that there is a missing Vigh fight out there.


Here are some pics of Vigh:

[evrenb]

It looks a bit Like Soose to me...definitely not one of their fights as the trunks are different from photos of the fight where Vigh is decked. An intriguing mystery. Does his boxing style resemble that of Soose from other footage you may have?

Evrenb

[klompton]

It cant be Soose I dont think. In their first fight Soose was decked in the 8th but the knockdown looks different than the KD in what looks to be the 8th here. Also it was the only knockdown of the fight whereas this one shows at least two and looks like there may be the start or finish of at least two more. In the second fight Soose knocked Vigh down in the first hard and won easily. There was apparently only one KD in that fight as well. Vigh does really good in the footage so I doubt its him. Also the guy who is Vigh's opponent looks to be at least a couple of inches shorter whereas Vigh was significantly shorter than Soose who was a very tall MW at 6'1". Also, this fight looks to end in or after the 8th and those fights went 10 and 12 (although being that this is a heavily edited home movie its entirely possible that the fight continues on after the 8th and we simply dont see any round changes.

[klompton]

I think Im getting close. Im back to thinking it might be Vigh vs. Babe Orgovan. Check out the referee:





Here is Pete Hartley, who refereed Vigh-Orgavan, refereeing Chocolate-Watson 7 years earlier:




Also, check out this video of Fritzie Zivic-Tony Marteliano held at the same venue 1 year later:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsLEfzaUlnU

Go to 1:47 and notice the ring card.


If you go to around 7:22 you can see both cables strung from the rafters to the floor which are visible in this film.




At 10:18 you can see that the cables going to the ring announcers microphone are dual cables just like what is shown in this picture:


Combine all of this with the fact that Orgavan was stopped in the 8th just like what is shown on the film and I think its a pretty safe bet this is the fight.

A couple of things threw me off: 1. It looked to me like the guy in the film had blond hair but Orgavan, in the good pictures I have of him, looks to have dark hair. However, newspaper reports say Vigh was blonde he definately doesnt look blonde to me any pictures so I suppose B/W films and photos can be deceiving there. A couple of other things that threw me off was that the only newspaper report I have of this fight says Orgovan was down in the second whereas this guy was down in the first. Finally I was focusing on Vigh's corner. Vigh is usually associated with Nick Florio and Sol Gold at this time as trainer and manager. Gold doesnt really look like either guy. However I found an article from August 1940 which lists Harry Christie as his manager. So that could be why its hard to pinpoint the corner.

Im headed to the library later to find some more articles on Vigh-Orgovan but I would recommend anyone who is interested reading about Vigh. He was a really interesting fighter. He was considered one of the hardest punchers in the middleweight division at the time if not the hardest. He gave Soose a whale of a fight in their first bout and had enough people questioning the verdict that he got a rematch. He was dropped hard in the first and spent the next 8 rounds not knowing where he was fighting on pure heart. He also had big fights scheduled with guys like Zale and a possible title shot that never materialized for various reasons. He had a string of bad luck with a possible hometown robbery loss to Welch in Portland, just missing a KO win over Martin in Chicago to lose a decision, and a competetive loss to Mamakos. Then the war came and Vigh asked for a deferment which was not granted. He ended up joining the coast guard in early 1942 and when he went in I believe he was still rated highly in MW rankings. He made a couple of half hearted comebacks in 1944 and 46 before trying to get his old rating back in 1947. He brutalized three club fighters before stepping into the ring with Anton Raadik in Raadik's New York debut. Before a dismal small crowd Vigh sliced open a bad cut over Raadik's right eye. Over and over Vigh landed the powerpunches that once made him the terror of the middleweights on the slow moving, easy to hit Estonian but Raadik just soaked them up and kept coming forward. Before the sixth rounds Vincent Nardiello looked at Raadik's cut but allowed the fight to go even though every time Vigh landed he left the referee and ringsiders spotted with red polka dots. Yet Vigh was no longer the same fighter he had once been. His relative inactivity and the fact that he came in at a career low weight (and possibly his new wife, married two months earlier) left him weak, slow, and winded by this point. Vigh finally succumbed in the 8th round after going down for only second time in his career. Vigh had agreed to a percentage of the gate for this fight and ended up with only $400, the semi final fighters made almost four times that. Disgusted, Vigh had one more fight then retired and used his savings to open a tavern called Ernie's at 65-05 Metropolitan Avenue in Ridgewood. Vigh, like most fighters, simply could not get boxing out of his blood and made one more attempt at a comeback in 1949. He cobbled together a few wins but he wasnt as sharp. Wasnt as strong. Just wasnt as good anymore and after dropping a decision to Tony Bertucci at the end of the year he called it quits. In the early morning hours of July 23 1951 Vigh lost control of his car on the Midtown highway in Long Island and crashed into a telephone pole. He lingered for five hours in a hospital before dying of traumatic head injuries. He was 32 and for Decades after newspaper's from his hometown of Newburgh ran stories honoring him as one of the best fighters ever to come out of the Hudson Valley.

[evrenb]

Thats what i call research! :-D

[klompton]

What did we ever do without the internet LOL.

One thing I noticed which I guess I never really paid much attention to before and may not come as a shock to others: While researching this I went through all of my old Ring Magazines from the late 1930s and early 1940s looking for photos of the venues, fighters, etc. I was absolutely amazed by how limited the Ring's coverage was, as least in terms of photos and full page writeups. Essentially if it didnt happen in New York (and the vast majority of the time Madison Square Garden where the Ring office was) it got very little ink. Yeah there were the little paragraph or sentence blurbs that correspondents covered etc but the real coverage was strictly for gala events at ballparks or Madison Square Garden. If it happened somewhere else, especially outside of New York, its a good bet the Ring would give it minimal coverage 90+% of the time. In a sense this makes sense to me because Fleischer was tied to MSG and certain promoters in New York. The NYSAC was trying to corner the market on boxing (as it had been since the early 1920s) and warring with the NBA. Seeing as how the NYSAC winning this war would only benefit Fleischer its understandable that he would side with them and give more ink to MSG and the big NY fights and relegate everything else to the lower shelf. Kind of gives a little insight into Fleischer who was always portrayed as a guy who was selflessly about boxing when in reality he was feathering his own nest. Not so different from DLH owning Ring now if you think about it and also something to keep in mind when lamenting some of the later eras of Ring Magazines coverage. I guess sometimes the rose tinted view of the old days really isnt that rosey.

[BoxBuzz]

Thanks for returning here and sharing this. I have been chiming in to watch this mystery unfold, and have been very pleased to see it apparently solved.

[Ric]

Klompton, thanks for the research on Vigh, which I've included in his Wiki bio, with some slight editing. Matt entered the Raadik bout as a KO-7, but you write KO-8. That's the only discrepancy.

[klompton]

That was a typo on my part. Raadik stopped him in 7.

[Ewryankee22]

Hi. My name is Tony Mercadante. I am the nephew of Jay Macedon. His actual name was Mecadon. They have it wrong here. Birth name was Mercadante. I was perusing this amazing site and saw this line of posts where you found a film of a fighter named Vigh but couldn't confirm the opponent and thought it may be my uncle. Did you confirm the opponent? I'd love to see the film or photos is stills? I can recognize my uncle. I can also maybe get a copy of his boxing photo. I know this discussion was 3 years ago for you but I'd love to know. You can contact me at [email protected].

Thanks