How many legitimate world titles has Manny Pacquiao won?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

So you count David Diaz and not Barrera? Title counting in the modern era is as silly as tracking lineal. He's beaten a ton of great/very good fighters and established himself as an ATG. That's all that matters.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

So you count David Diaz and not Barrera? Title counting in the modern era is as silly as tracking lineal. He's beaten a ton of great/very good fighters and established himself as an ATG. That's all that matters.

I’ve already included the David Diaz fight, but I am excluding the mythical lineal and the Ring magazine featherweight bout against Barrera, because none of the belts from any of the main organisations was on the line.

This threads about is not intended to undermine Manny Pacquiao's achievements - merely dispel myths perpetuated by the media.

I wouldn't count David Diaz at all. That was an infinitely paper title.

[punchoutsb]

So does this mean that Manny Pacquiao has only actually won five legitimate world titles, rather than the eight that is constantly being quoted in the media?

No.

Just because you may not agree with the idea of a catch-weight, it still is legitimate if both fighters sign the contract. You are allowed to weigh ANYTHING under the limit of the weight class you are fighting in. So if you and your opponent agree to come in under the limit, that is perfectly fine.

[punchoutsb]

So does this mean that Manny Pacquiao has only actually won five legitimate world titles, rather than the eight that is constantly being quoted in the media?

No.

Just because you may not agree with the idea of a catch-weight, it still is legitimate if both fighters sign the contract. You are allowed to weigh ANYTHING under the limit of the weight class you are fighting in. So if you and your opponent agree to come in under the limit, that is perfectly fine.

I agree with your sentiments from a purely technical perspective. However, I’m a great believer that if you fight for a title, then fight at the “official” weight

The "official" weight is anything from the upper limit on down. You cannot weigh over, but you can way any amount under.

That being said, I agree in that I find catch weight fights rather useless. They do not, however, illegitimize a title any more than the fact that we have so many alphabet belts illegitimize it.

[ikorolev]

Who cares ...

[Ricky_]

Pacquiao's career and rise is fascinating.

His first fight on american soil was against Ledwaba. Nobody knew who he was including i think Foreman who was commentating. Pacquioa like so many of his world title fights on his road to super stardom was a massive underdog against the 33-1 Ledwaba and Pacquiao beat the shit out of him. That fight is on youtube if anyone hasn't seen it, Pacquiao was in his early twenties, it's a fantastic boxing performance.

[fanman]

4 division linear champ.
who cares about wbo, wbc, etc. anyone can make a 'world' championship. being a fan means knowing the history and who is the legit champ in each division.

[Purse Bid Shakedown]

Typically lousy thread from this sorry troll. Why wouldn't you count MAB or Hatton, who were both universally recognized as lineal champs in their division? Hatton had just beat the crap out of reigning IBF champ Paulie one fight prior.

[Baby Face Finster]

Typically lousy thread from this sorry troll. Why wouldn't you count MAB or Hatton, who were both universally recognized as lineal champs in their division? Hatton had just beat the crap out of reigning IBF champ Paulie one fight prior.

Because he created this thread with an agenda in mind as is seen in this line in one of his this posts:

I love watching Manny Pacquiao fight, but I believe that his penchant for imposing catch-weights, which means he often faces a weakened version of his opponents, severely tarnishes his legacy.

[Lackeos]

Yes, if Pacquiao fought Margarito at the full 154-pound limit, then he would be inside the top 10 p4p all-time. But since he fought Margarito at a catchweight, he is outside of the top 100.

Pacquiao could have retired in 2006 and still been an ATG. By the spring of 2008, his legacy was carved in granite. Margarito and DLH at any weight would not have made the slightest blip of difference qualitatively in his legacy. Even Cotto and Hatton are barely inside Pacquiao's top 10 wins.

[Purse Bid Shakedown]

Typically lousy thread from this sorry troll. Why wouldn't you count MAB or Hatton, who were both universally recognized as lineal champs in their division? Hatton had just beat the crap out of reigning IBF champ Paulie one fight prior.

Because he created this thread with an agenda in mind as is seen in this line in one of his this posts:

I love watching Manny Pacquiao fight, but I believe that his penchant for imposing catch-weights, which means he often faces a weakened version of his opponents, severely tarnishes his legacy.

Yup, but at least Brut will be less lonely. This troll is well behind the times though. Floyd just imposed a CW for all the marbles. JMM and Cotto also imposed 2 CWs, same as Pac. But none of them won 6 divisional titles before asking for their 1st CW, unlike Pac.

[NateJR]

Because he created this thread with an agenda in mind as is seen in this line in one of his this posts...

I don’t personally to find the concept of catch-weights to be particularly offensive if used under exceptional circumstances that should normally be a rare occurrence. However, when it’s used time-and-time again, aimed at specifically weakening your opponent in order to gain an unfair advantage, then that’s when I draw the line.

The boxing media embellishes Manny Pacquiao’s accomplishments, because they claim him to be an eight division world champion, but when you interrogate his record, some of these title bouts weren’t for any official belts nor were they fought within the normal realms of the weight class (i.e. catch-weight stipulations were imposed). That’s my agenda.

I’m a huge fan of Manny Pacquiao, but this doesn’t mean I’m blind to all the facts at hand.

I'm with you on this, but again I've been known to be a Pacquiao detractor. There's no doubting that Pacquiao is a great fighter that has great accomplishments in the sport but he's not a true 8 division world champion (by any stretch of the imagination), he more of a true 5 or 6 division world champion.

The part that gets me is how Pacquiao became a professional fighter at such young age that he wasn't even close to being a fully grown man when he started boxing. Floyd was the same weight as Pacquiao when he was 16 years old, but the difference is Floyd was still a amateur fighter where as Pacquiao was fighting as a professional. But if you look at Floyd and Pacquiao and compared them to what they weighed while they were the same age, Pacquiao moved up in weight at about the same pace as Floyd so the myth that Pacquiao is this tiny little guy that moved way up in weight is taken a bit over board. Pacquiao fighting in all of those division has more to do with him becoming a professional at such a young age more so than him being so much smaller than all of these other guys. But the truth is Pacquiao isn't that much smaller than Floyd, he doesn't have the height or the reach of someone like Floyd but he's more stout in stature now that he's grown into 147.

[punchoutsb]

nor were they fought within the normal realms of the weight class (i.e. catch-weight stipulations were imposed).

So, once again, the "normal realms" of a weight class are the upper limit on down. So yes, they were fought there.

[Tarkus]

He fought Clottey and subsequent fights for a welter title. You cant ignore them because of Cotto catchweight.

[Tarkus]

My point is that even if you discount Cotto win as a title win because of catchweight you cant discount subsequent wins over Cotto and others. In other words he won the welter belt legitimately already against Clottey not Bradley.

[Tarkus]

So he doesn't win a title but still defends it in the next fight? You cant have it both ways brother. Quite obviously if Pacquiao was not a champion after Cotto fight then he became a champion after Clottey.

[Purse Bid Shakedown]

So he doesn't win a title but still defends it in the next fight? You cant have it both ways brother. Quite obviously if Pacquiao was not a champion after Cotto fight then he became a champion after Clottey.

OK, I wish I hadn’t created this thread…

My thought process (according to the rules stated in this thread) doesn’t consider Pacquiao as a world champion until he defeats a world title holder of one of the big four boxing organisations without catch-weight stipulations. Hence, the reason why I consider the Clottey bout as a non-title fight, because Joshua wasn’t a world champion at the time.

I’m not undermining Manny’s victories over men like Clottey; I’m merely counting the first time Pacquiao claimed a world title in each weight class against a world champion (from one of the big four organisations) in a fight that did not have catch-weight stipulations.

This is purely a statistical type thread… it’s not meant to question Manny’s legacy, merely put into context the world titles he actually won in an orthodox manner.

You need statistics to tell you Pac imposed 2 CWs on opponents, same as JMM or Cotto? Look it up dumba$$, Pac won 6 divisional titles (including lineal) before asking for his 1sr CW, in his 7th. Your favorite fighter couldnt come close to that.

Funny someone has more regard for alphabet titles than lineal belts..

[Tarkus]

Are you saying you dont count winning vacant titles?

[Tarkus]

Then you could say that Clottey fight was for a vacant title, as it was a title fight and you dont consider Manny a titleholder as he did not win the title against Cotto.

[Steo]

The Barrera fight wasn't for an alphabet belt but it was for the real featherweight title. Legitimate title

[Tarkus]

Then you could say that Clottey fight was for a vacant title, as it was a title fight and you dont consider Manny a titleholder as he did not win the title against Cotto.

It doesn’t really change my original claim that Manny Pacquiao only won world titles (from one of the big four sanctioning bodies) in five weight classes without imposing stipulations.

He never won world titles from one of the big four boxing organisations at featherweight or light welterweight, nor did he defend the light middleweight belt he won by imposing catch-weight stipulations on Antonio Margarito.

I had already counted Manny winning the welterweight title when he beat Timothy Bradley in their rematch.

I won! I won! I won!

[Purse Bid Shakedown]

You need statistics to tell you Pac imposed 2 CWs on opponents, same as JMM or Cotto? Look it up dumba$$, Pac won 6 divisional titles (including lineal) before asking for his 1sr CW, in his 7th. Your favorite fighter couldnt come close to that.

Funny someone has more regard for alphabet titles than lineal belts...

All I’ve read in your post was “blah, blah, blah”…

I don’t believe that having an appreciation for Manny Pacquiao and Floyd Mayweather Jr. is mutually-exclusive. I like both fighters in equal measure, but both men have their faults and are open to criticism… or perhaps even ridicule on occasion.

So in terms of issues, I have noted that the Filipino legend regularly imposes catch-weights or forces his opponents to compete against him in a completely different weight class than they are normally accustomed to. Just ask Chris Algieri, Miguel Cotto, Antonio Margarito, Juan Manuel Marquez, Oscar De La Hoya, Shane Mosley, Timothy Bradley and Brandon Rios.

Therefore, I personally only rate him as a five weight world champion, because the Ring Magazine and the mythical lineal world titles aren’t recognised by any sanctioning bodies or the boxing public… and it’s not correct to crown a champion purely based on the mechanical rules of genealogy (i.e. Shannon Briggs).

Anyway, just because the facts, which are irrefutable, does not reflect your preferred perception of reality, this does not render my opinion invalid.

Im sure Pac will be devastated to find some lowly troll only counts 5 of his titles.

Lineal titles are well recognized by the public, some only count those and not the alphabet straps.

[Purse Bid Shakedown]

The Barrera fight wasn't for an alphabet belt but it was for the real featherweight title. Legitimate title

Same with Hatton, consensus champ at 140. But youre dealing with an irrational troll here

[punchoutsb]

In my honest opinion, the Ring Magazine and the mythical lineal world titles aren’t recognised by...the boxing public

But they are. More so in many cases than the ABC orgs, which are incredibly corrupt.

Back to OP, you clearly have formed your opinion and then asked for others. You can't use your own personal criteria to argue with those who don't agree with your criteria.

[IKSRTFO]

nor were they fought within the normal realms of the weight class (i.e. catch-weight stipulations were imposed).

So, once again, the "normal realms" of a weight class are the upper limit on down. So yes, they were fought there.

OK, I’ll rephrase it… Manny Pacquiao made bigger men fight “small”, at a weight lower than they were normally accustomed to. Is that a more precise way to articulate my point?

I know you’re trying to justify Manny’s desire to impose catch-weights on his opponents, it doesn’t detract from the fact that he seems to be the only active boxer in the sport today that seems to do this on a regular basis.

If you personally have no problem with this, then that’s your prerogative. For me, despite the fact that he’s a phenomenal fighter, I feel it tarnishes his resume because there will always be question marks about the outcome of some of his fights if catch-weight stipulations weren’t imposed.

I don’t think that I’m being particularly unreasonable in questioning the motives behind this bad habit.

I fail to see how he made Margarito fight "small" being he fought at 147 exclusively like two fights before Pacquiao and while he was a drainer, he never used weight as an excuse until the Mosley fiasco.