Prime James J. Jeffries vs. a prime Joe Louis matchup?

[man]

Some upsets aren't really surprising.

[pound per pound]

You heard the expression, styles make fights? In this case I’m picking what many view as the less accomplished fighter. Jeffries to win. Why is the important question.

1 ) Louis had issues with good left hooks, floored by a hard hitting, but limited Galento, and taken to school by Walcott.

2 ) Louis had issues with fighters crouching. See the first Godoy fight. Jeffries could get low.

3 ) Louis did not like to be crowded in his own words, and could be bulled around the ring. Jeffries in this capacity was even greater than Marciano. Louis said he could never beat Marciano because he crowded him.

4 ) On film, Louis could be stunned by lesser punchers like Farr, and Conn, and could not recover vs. Schemling’s first hard right hand. This means when Jeffries lands, Louis is in trouble.

While Louis was the better boxer, Jeffries had the iron body and granite chin to outlast him in a fire fight.

UPSET!!! Jeffries to win.

[The Great John L]

You heard the expression, styles make fights? In this case I’m picking what many view as the less accomplished fighter. Jeffries to win. Why is the important question.

1 ) Louis had issues with good left hooks, floored by a hard hitting, but limited Galento, and taken to school by Walcott.

2 ) Louis had issues with fighters crouching. See the first Godoy fight. Jeffries could get low.

3 ) Louis did not like to be crowded in his own words, and could be bulled around the ring. Jeffries in this capacity was even greater than Marciano. Louis said he could never beat Marciano because he crowded him.

4 ) On film, Louis could be stunned by lesser punchers like Farr, and Conn, and could not recover vs. Schemling’s first hard right hand. This means when Jeffries lands, Louis is in trouble.

While Louis was the better boxer, Jeffries had the iron body and granite chin to outlast him in a fire fight.

UPSET!!! Jeffries to win.

Well stated. Thanks.

[HomicideHenry]

Strengths (James Jackson Jefferies)

Unbelievable Conditioning

-Virtually from the start Jeffries had unbelievable staying power; after all in his first documented professional fight he went 14 rounds with a veteran of well over 100 matches and knocked the man out which leads to a second point of reference....

Unbelievably High Tolerance to Pain

-From the start he overcame whatever limitations he had and could absorb an incredible amount of punishment to later knockout superior skilled opponents; even the biggest and strongest brutes of the era were nowhere near as strong or as durable as Jefferies, which brings us to another point of reference....

Building Skills on The Job

-Jefferies even by modern standards had an awkward style, where the left arm was extended and he fought from a crouch which only generated more power in his punches, but was still odd considering he was considered something of a physical giant of his times (nearly 6'3" and fighting anywhere from 210-250+ pounds); they said he was unbreakable in the clinches, and for his size was surprisingly fast on his hands and feet, he wasn't above chasing men down to get the job done; this swarming style was later copied by Jack Dempsey....

Quality over Quantity

-Jefferies was in the least amount of prize fights of any HOF boxer, but within 22 matches he made an impact that is still felt today. Just how great was Jefferies? It wasn't just racial motivation that pegged him to be the favorite in Reno against Johnson, because his loss was treated with the same public calamity as Sullivan's loss to Corbett. Nobody honestly believed he could lose, no matter the circumstances. This was a man, who at one point, fought the three best heavyweights in England on an exhibition tour and knocked out all three men in one night. So confident was he of his prowess, he once challenged Corbett, Fitzsimmons and Sharkey to fight him on the same night. He was a presence and powerhouse that was not to be denied. If you compare his record to that of other HOF'ers, he is almost topping the list of accomplishments as much as anyone else with far longer records, including Joe Louis.

Weaknesses of James Jackson Jefferies

-He could be out boxed, out thought, and out hustled. In his first fight with Jim Corbett he lost easily the first fifteen-eighteen rounds before finally chopping him down. Slick movers, tacticians with quick foot movements bothered him tremendously (at least in the point/round sense). Confine him to a specific amount of rounds, too, the more likely his success rate drops---- even though Jefferies did knock out many men early.

-He could be out slugged; surprising as this sounds, lets look at the evidence. Fitzsimmons beat him to the punch and massacred Jefferies' face and body twice, before getting kayoed. Tom Sharkey went the full route with Jefferies twice in what were close, brutal encounters and Sharkey was no thinking man's fighter. Jefferies was a man with a tremendous punch, yes, but it often took him to take one, two, three, four, etc. punches before he got the bear swipe in. In a fifteen round fight, its possible he could be chopped up and TKO'd.

Prognosis

James Jackson Jefferies was easily the strongest, most durable and well conditioned athlete of his day. He was faster than one would think, and being one of the bigger men of his era, this made him doubly dangerous. Sam Langford the greatest boxer (possibly) of all time used to promote himself as "Willing to take on all comers, except Jim Jefferies." However, in his day and age, his era and conditions, he was unbeatable. Cast him into the 1930s-1940s, it would have been a different story. However, Joe Louis did struggle with men of similar styles: Galento, Gudoy, Marciano, etc. To invision what kind of a fight a Louis-Jefferies fight would be, imagine a bigger version of Marciano in that ring with Louis with a slight edge in power and toughness. Why toughness? Marciano was decked twice in his prime, Jefferies wouldn't be decked until he came out of retirement six years and lost 110 pounds.

Joe Louis was arguably the greatest heavyweight fighting machine from the waist up, with tremendous hand speed and combinations like lightning bolts. However, he was (too) a stalker in the ring. With a Jim Jefferies he would essentially be forced to fight toe to toe, round after round. The longer the contest goes, the more vulnerable is Louis to Jefferies power and conditioning. I don't think referees of Louis' time would have allowed Jefferies to be TKO'd unless he was completely torn to shreds, because Jefferies never appeared to get shook up or hurt ever in his fights, even when he had dozens of cuts on his face. So this potentially has the makings of going beyond the 12th round, with Louis ahead on points, but growing tired and by round 14 is showing fatigue and in round 15 gets dropped once or twice by Jefferies, but survives and wins a very narrow, close decision.

Jesus bless.

[man]

these threads are the best on the board. i know one is
coming when i have this "man, shut up and listen"-feeling ...

[dempseyfire]

The quality of the film of Jim actually fighting is pretty poor, but there is good quality footage of him in training, and he looks far faster and "slippery" than often described. He wasn't just a come forward guy who ate punches and wore you out.

As for a Louis-Jefferies fight, I simply don't think I have the ability to gauge this fight based on the evidence at hand. The write-ups on Jefferies are contradictory . . .either he was one of the best to ever lace them up (maybe THE best) or he was more an iron jawed banger suited for his era of longer title fights. Tough to matchup Jefferies in fantasy fights.

[NYDominican]

HomicideHenry. -------

You said "Louis was arguably the most dominating champion in history, but he had his flaws, he was far from perfect". -------

True.


You said "He was dropped quite often by men who were considered average or below par, and he struggled with smaller men like Billy Conn". ------

Correct.

In Joe Louis' first fight against Max Schmeling, Max dropped Joe. In Joes fights against James J. Braddock, Tony Galento, Jersey Joe Walcott, Buddy Baer and Rocky Marciano, Joe got dropped.


You said "He could be hurt, he could be out boxed and out slugged". ------

True.


You said "I think personally Jeffries had the ability to of hurt Louis and of dropped him". -------

I think so too.

[NYDominican]

HomicideHenry, man, pound per pound and The Great John L. ------

What many top people in boxing said about James J. Jeffries. -------

1. Sam Langford. ------ A great fighter who fought from lightweight to heavyweight, advertised to fight any man in the world, except Jim Jeffries.


2. Tom Sharkey. ------ Heavyweight top contender, thought that Jeffries would have beat Jack Dempsey and Joe Louis on the same night. He said Jeffries was strong like a bull and quick on his feet like a cat.

Sharkey called Jeffries the greatest fighter of all time.



3. Jack Root, Willie Ritchie and Tommy Burns, former Light Heavyweight, Lightweight and Heavyweight Champions, respectfully. ------

Jack, Willie and Tommy rated Jeffries as the greatest heavyweight.



4. Jack Johnson. ------ The only man to beat Jeffries, stated in an interview with Ring Magazine that he thought Jeffries was the greatest.

In another interview, Johnson said Jeffries would beat both Jack Dempsey and Joe Louis.



5. James J. Corbett. ------ Said of Jeffries, "The thing that always impressed me was the speed the youngster had, and he weighed two-hundred-twenty-five pounds. I hold that Jeffries was the greatest Heavyweight Champion of them all."

[NYDominican]

HomicideHenry, man, pound per pound and The Great John L. ------

What several other top people who were connected to boxing said about James J. Jeffries. -------


6. Jack Dempsey. ------ The great Heavyweight Champion, once said: "Jim Jeffries was a tough gun. If we could have gotten in the ring together, each at our best....I probably would have had my chin knocked off."



7. Dan Morgan. ------ Fight manager for forty years, who saw them all, rated Jeffries as the all-time best. Morgan called Jeffries a "Champion of Champions".



8. Tex Rickard. ------ Famed sportsman and promoter, held the view: "Big Jim will always live in my memory as the greatest heavyweight boxer of his time. While he reigned supreme, he gave all a chance. He did not know the meaning of the word fear."


9. W.W. Naughton. ------- Sports writer of the day, records: "To sum up his qualities of ringsmanship, it may be said he is fairly talented in every branch of self-defense. He boxes cleverly, defends himself well, and strikes a hard blow. But back of all these are the qualities which have made him a champion, mangnificent strength and wonderful endurance."



10. Dewitt Van Court. ------ Boxing instructor and athletic director of the Los Angeles Athletic Club wrote: "I was with James J. Jeffries when he first started to box. I was with him when he won the Championship. I was with him when he lost it. Besides being the greatest Heavyweight Champion that ever lived, he is today and has been all his life, a man among men, a true friend with a heart as big as his body."

[HomicideHenry]

Mind you, I am a huge Jeffries fan--- what's surprising about him is the lasting legacy he left behind, when he has easily the shortest career span among the all-time greats. He only fought 20 some odd times, and yet he left such an impact on the sport that we are still arguing his overall worth some 110 years after the fact.

I think, under the conditions that he fought in his prime, he was unbeatable. There isn't a heavyweight that I can name, who would be able to of beaten him--- outside of those who may of been more powerful than he was like Foreman. However, in hypotheticals, I have to be unbiased. I have to strive to be a realist and make it even as much as possible. For all his strengths, Jeffries did have his weaknesses--- he wasn't the slow, awkward, plodder that people assume; but he could be out thought, out boxed, and at times even out slugged.

Throw him into an era where rules were modified to give men more time to recooperate, where gloves were bigger, where referees didn't allow the carnage to get anywhere near as bad as in his time, and where matches were restricted to fifteen rounds--- those strengths and weaknesses of Jeffries become all the more visible. And against a man like Joe Louis, who had lightning fast combinations, who could take a man out within a six inch distance, and who was technically sound--- the greatest fighting machine from the waist up ever in heavyweight history--- there is the great chance and likelihood that Jeffries is chopped up, brutalized, in about eight-ten rounds against the Brown Bomber.

Of course, we're not talking about a man with the most solid of chins either. We're not talking about a man who was always in control of his emotions either--- or who couldn't be pushed into a dog fight. Louis could be vulnerable--- and against men with less pedigree and worth than Jeffries. Galento had him on the floor, as did others. The only difference between those men and Jeffries--- is by the time they did it, they were acting in desperation, and were on their way out anyways. Jeffries--- always had more in the tank, and always moved forward. A bad recipe for Louis.

[pound per pound]

The quality of the film of Jim actually fighting is pretty poor, but there is good quality footage of him in training, and he looks far faster and "slippery" than often described.

Can someone post the film here? I saw it while back, and you're right. Jeffries could move.

[drunkenpiper36]

I have real reservations about giving Jim Jeffries any sort of chance in this type of match. Joe Louis had handspeed, technical skills and athleticism that went beyond anything Jeffries ever faced. He would also be one of the largest opponents Jeff ever fought, and a man who was well accustomed to facing men far bigger. Jeffries had his nose broken three times in his career and fought with his guard low. That would be disasters facing what was possibly the best combination puncher of all time. Of course Louis didn't always exemplify the best defense either and might get tagged with some good shots. But at the end of the day the odds are well in his favor.

[fzambleth]

Since Jeff fought in 25 round championship fights & Joe fought 15 rounders, i'll put them in the ring for an even 20...

I think Jeff is the better of the two men, but Louis is a tough matchup for him.
Joe is maybe one of two or three men who could hit hard enough to KO the Boilermaker. I think Jeff's speed (both hand & foot) and generalship is underrated, but Louis would still be the one getting off first and w/ combinations. Could the California Grizzly survive? Maybe, but I just don't know...
I think Louis would probably have a tougher time surviving Jeffries, though. Joe was rattled by guys like Farr & Godouy, and out of his feet against Conn. He was knocked down by Braddock, Galento, Schmelling. If Jeff doesn't pull his punches (as he was want to do), I see Louis going down.
I don't see either winning on points in this matchup. Both men could hit, and both came forward.
My take: Jeffries wins by KO in the 10th.

[Cap]

Jeffries fought Corbett when Gentleman Jim was past his best before date, but at least Corbett was a legit heavyweight at 6'1" and around 184-185. Choynski was barely a light heavyweight. Fitzsimmons, not even that heavy. The others, were not in the same class: Ruhlin, Munroe, Sharkey, etc. They all managed to land at will on Jeffries, just didn't have the artillery to hurt him. Jack Johnson was a different story.

Jeff at his best stood just a whisker over six feet tall and weighed in at a hard 205. He was a powerful specimen, but was a sitting target for guys who actually knew how to throw a punch. Joe Louis would have had no problem finding Jeff's head and they didn't call him the Brown Bomber for nothing! In a 25 round fight with 4oz gloves, Louis would've ripped Jeff to shreds and worn him down to a stumbling blood-smeared hulk in less than 15 rounds.

[Caractacus]

The quality of the film of Jim actually fighting is pretty poor, but there is good quality footage of him in training, and he looks far faster and "slippery" than often described.

Can someone post the film here? I saw it while back, and you're right. Jeffries could move.

In the days when Jeffries still had a full head of hair!

http://www.youtube.com//watch?v=CauVMvNspIY

[Caractacus]

http://www.youtube.com//watch?v=CauVMvNspIY

Is it me,or does the 26 year old Jim J. Jeffries in that film footage bear a remarkable resembalance to a
young Ingemar Johansson?
Back when Johansson had a full head of hair too of course.
(both were of Viking heritage).

BTW look at Jeffries avoid those punches by pulling straight back at about 3:40 of the clip
(a big no no in boxing)
You would probably have be as fast as Muhammad Ali to get away with that.

[Caractacus]

Man,can you imagine if before Jeffries comeback fight with Jack Johnson in July 1910,
if Jeffries cornermen gave Jeffries a handful of anphetamines before the bell rang,
and Jeffries came out boxing moving in circles and dipping like that around him?
I think Jack Johnson's eyes would have popped out his head or somethin'.
(Although of course the effects of anphetimes werent widley known till about 1927).
BTW
I think that is Jeffries brother Jack he is sparring with,
but look at the size of Jim Jeffries shins and calves compared to his.
They look almost "mastodonic".

[Caractacus]

Here is the song by the Ramones (live).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcmDhG0YhgI