Gerry Cooney vs Abe Simon

[drunkenpiper36]

My pic is Cooney. But two big guys with decent power who took on ATG's in galant losing efforts.

[dempseyfire]

Simon could take a punch. Cooney could not. Simon by KO.

[drunkenpiper36]

By that logic Tex Cobb should have beaten Ken Norton. George Chuvalo Should have taken out Floyd Patterson, etc...Obviously there are other factors at play than just one's ability to take a better punch than someone else.

[tiny_acres]

By that logic Tex Cobb should have beaten Ken Norton. Obviously there are other factors at play than just one's ability to take a better punch than someone else.

Great analogy.

[drunkenpiper36]

By that logic Tex Cobb should have beaten Ken Norton. Obviously there are other factors at play than just one's ability to take a better punch than someone else.

Great analogy.

Thank you

[dempseyfire]

By that logic Tex Cobb should have beaten Ken Norton. George Chuvalo Should have taken out Floyd Patterson, etc...Obviously there are other factors at play than just one's ability to take a better punch than someone else.

Cooney never showed he was a great boxer-mover. He generally liked to get in and slug it out. In several fights he got hurt by light-hitting guys (Dino Denis) because he got so sloppy.

Cooney will win the first few rounds but Simon has better stamina and endurance, plus despite Cooney's size has the weight and strength advantage. Simon will grind out a win on an exhausted Cooney in the mid-late rounds.

[DaveyMac]

I think Cooney wins this easy. In the end he could do everything Abe could do and more of it.

[drunkenpiper36]

I think Cooney wins this easy. In the end he could do everything Abe could do and more of it.

Agreed.

[dempseyfire]

I think Cooney wins this easy. In the end he could do everything Abe could do and more of it.

Besides take a hard punch, which is a rather major important factor in a boxing match.

[drunkenpiper36]

I think Cooney wins this easy. In the end he could do everything Abe could do and more of it.

Besides take a hard punch, which is a rather major important factor in a boxing match.

So are other factors and while I might agree that Simon had better durability I'm not sold on the idea that he had a significantly harder chin than Cooney. Gerry took a sustained sh-t beating for 13 rounds from Holmes while also fighting back.. He was later stopped by two other ATG's who could crack and following long periods of inactivity. Simon was beaten by several journeyman and fringe types. He also looks slow and crude on film. Cooney has a good jab, semi-decent footwork, longer reach and arguably more power. This is hardly a case of two men fighting each other who were COMPLETELY outside of each other's class.

[DaveyMac]

I mean not only was the average Cooney better than Simon, Cooney's peak was way, way beyond what Simon did. Simon was never considered a threat to elite fighters. Cooney really was and with good reason, he was a threat, at least for a while.

Most of these what ifs that come up here are pretty even and hard choices to make but for me this one is a no-brainer.

[Caractacus]

Abe Simon once claimed that due to his condition that he felt no pain.
But something Joe Louis did dropped him to the canvas hard.
Abe Simon was big,really big,but he really had no big power in his punches,
because he couldnt put leverage into them because of his stance.
Although he threw mostly arm punches (albeit he had really big arms.)
On film it looks like he is hitting his opponents with big wet shammies!
If Cooney attacked Abe Simmons body(and a big target that would have been)
suppose Cooney broke some of Simon's ribs in the battle.
Could Simon have conintued despite feeling no pain?
Maybe its a body mechanics thing.

[HomicideHenry]

Abe Simon is one of those boxing contenders that always befuddled me. I don't know whether to look at him as the "real deal" or as a novelty--- like Ewart Potgieter was in the 1950's. He was billed, in many ways, like Carnera was--- but he wasn't as skilled or as tough as Carnera was. He reminds me, in some respects, like 1930's Hollywood star Rondo Hatton--- promoted as a "real life monster, not a human being".

Knowing much about endocrinology, especially gigantism and acromegaly, it amazes me that a man (presumably) with those conditions could make it far in boxing or any sort of combat sport and/or athletic endeavor. This was a time, mind you, that surgery for such conditions was still in its infancy and most of these 'giants' or acromegalic victims seldom lived passed their forties (then again Simon did live to be 56).

I'll remember him best, of course, for his short cameo appearances in 'On The Waterfront' as one of Johnny Friendly's bodyguards. It is a wonder, though, that he was able to go 36-10-1 (25) as a boxer against guys like Jersey Joe Walcott, Roscoe Toles, Turkey Thompson, etc. considering what he gone through. It is no surprise to me, though, he retired in 1942 after losing to Louis the second time--- not just because the writing was on the wall, but because his body simply couldn't have went on. Robert Wadlow, the world's tallest medically authenticated human being, died at the age of 22 in 1940--- and though surgery was offered, it was in its infancy and was decided against. Simon, like Wadlow, was more a victim of his times, that medical advancements simply did not exist.

In a H2H confrontation with Cooney--- I can't help but assume or be biased in the opinion that Cooney would of beaten him, possibly by kayo--- because the fact is, the more strenuous the activity, the more weak and ailing victims of gigantism and acromegaly become. Because of the tumor on the pituitary, pressing on the optic nerves, it is a good possibility that a hard puncher like Cooney could have literally turned out the lights, forever, on Simon.

[Tomasino]

Abe Simon once claimed that due to his condition that he felt no pain.
But something Joe Louis did dropped him to the canvas hard.
Abe Simon was big,really big,but he really had no big power in his punches,
because he couldnt put leverage into them because of his stance.
Although he threw mostly arm punches (albeit he had really big arms.)
On film it looks like he is hitting his opponents with big wet shammies!
If Cooney attacked Abe Simmons body(and a big target that would have been)
suppose Cooney broke some of Simon's ribs in the battle.
Could Simon have conintued despite feeling no pain?
Maybe its a body mechanics thing.

What was his condition that stopped him feeling pain?

[HomicideHenry]

What was his condition that stopped him feeling pain?

Pituitary Acromegaly...

[Caractacus]

Abe Simon vs 'Terrifying'Jack O'Halloran would have been a more interesting match.

[dempseyfire]

By all acounts Simon had decent boxing skills and a good jab . . you can see it in the first round of the Louis rematch until Louis starts countering him to smithereens. Then for the rest of the match, getting absolutely hammered at long and mid-range, he decides the only way to win is to smother and use his size and strength. It then looks sloppy but I have no doubts the ONE film of Simon we have doesn't do him justice (against what may have been the best Louis ever . . in turn possibly the best version of the best heavyweight to ever put on a pair of boxing gloves). If he was just a slow ponderous big guy he would've never beaten Walcott or given Louis trouble in their first fight (which he did according to all of the write-ups).

Trust me, if the only film we had of Cooney was him getting obliterated in one or two rounds by a 1941 Louis (and yes it would have been that quick), . .with his legs doing the hokey pokey and him awkardly scrambling to retain his balance and hold on . . . I think the opinions would be different.

[Caractacus]

Has anyone here come across any info as to whether or not the first
Joe Louis vs Abe Simon fight March 1941 at Olympia Stadium,Detroit Michigan, was ever filmed?
I find it hard to believe that it was not.
It was a title fight in Joe Louis's hometown.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Simon by late stoppage or decision.

Being filmed and being preserved on film are two different things. You gotta remember that was during the War and most film was used for that. I've always guessed that was a reason there are so few fights from that era on film.

[Caractacus]

Simon by late stoppage or decision.

Being filmed and being preserved on film are two different things. You gotta remember that was during the War and most film was used for that. I've always guessed that was a reason there are so few fights from that era on film.

Man, the USA did not enter World War II until the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour December.7.1941.
Besides Hollywood was still makin movies all through during the war.
Im just asking if there is any indication it was filmed and if not,what was the real reason?

[Caractacus]

BTW There is a really excellent article written by Abe Simon entitled
"I Couldnt Take It"
which was originally published in the February 1943 edition of ESQUIRE magazine(pp 25-34).
The article use to be available to read for free over on Google Books for a long time
but since has been romoved for copyright reasons.
Unless someone here has scanned it and can download it here for everyone.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I gave you an answer. I'm sure somebody filmed it off of their TV. I imagine a lot of those just ended up discarded through the years.

[Caractacus]

I do know that the nation wide radio broadcast of Joe Louis vs Abe Simon I March 1941 on the NBC Friday Night Fight Blue Network from the Olympia stadium in Detroit Michigan was recorded.
It is part of the Adam Hat Sports Parade radio series
that is archived at the radiogoldindex web site.(80 minutes).
The radio broadcast begins with a preliminary bout,Gene Buffalo vs Holman Williams.
about 25 minutes into the broadcast Joe Louis vs Abe Simon.
Louis knocks down Simon in rounds one,three,seven and round thirteen,were he knocks Simon down twice and wins by TKO.
Bill Stern(color analysis)
Sam Taub(blow by blow)
Gene Hamilton(announcer)

[drunkenpiper36]

Pituitary Acromegaly...

Was it actually documented that Simon had this condition? Looking at photos of him, he doesn't look terribly disproportionate which is a common trait among most pituitary giants. In addition while he certainly was a large man, 6'4" isn't particularly tall for a lot of men with that condition who typically range anywhere from 6'8" to well over 7 ft..

[Caractacus]

Pituitary Acromegaly...

Was it actually documented that Simon had this condition? Looking at photos of him, he doesn't look terribly disproportionate which is a common trait among most pituitary giants. In addition while he certainly was a large man, 6'4" isn't particularly tall for a lot of men with that condition who typically range anywhere from 6'8" to well over 7 ft..

Yes,he talks about in length and his treatment in the February 1943 Esquire magazine article"I Couldnt Take It".
(I read it in an Esquire article compilation book)
Another famous person who had it around that time was a Hollywood actor named Rondo Hatton.