floyd is p4p GOAT

[man]

and i am not even a real fan. truth is IMHO that
never in the history of the sport did a fighter come
even close to having so much control over his
opponents. even when floyd got hurt against shane,
he managed to catch the very hand that just hurt
him. unprecedented.

all endless discussions about him fighting not the
very best opposition available do, IMHO, not hold
ground anymore. i suppose that the combined record
of his opponents is as good as the one of any other
p4p ATG in history. btw that would be a great statistic,
maybe someone has done it already.

now this is obviously no new material i am coming
up with and of course it is controversial, but we all
love this sport and despite him ducking manny,
which i think he has clearly been doing all along,
we witness maybe the best boxer ever on top of
his game in his very last bouts. good reason to
celebrate.

[fanman]

well one of the goat, no doubt. defensively as good as anyone, with more of an arsenal than sweet pea. but certainly not the best offensive fighter, look at robinson, leonard, hearns, etc. plus as you say he hasnt fought his most interesting challenger.
hes fought a string of good fighters but not the legendary challenges that leonard took on for example.

[Ian1973]

He's very, very good, obviously, but he's not even close to being P4P the greatest of all time. Sorry, but no, however much he has his boys chanting in his corner (by the way I wish they wouldn't do that, they look and sound like a right load of morons).

[Clint Magnum]

One of the best of his generation undoubtedly.
One of the greatest of all time? Nowhere near for me. I can name four better from the 80's alone.

[stevedoc]

a great fighter without doubt by not the greatest for me to think of floyd as the very best he'd have to beat a REAL welter weight not former light weights all the time a 6 foot fighter with a longer reach like hearns and a better pressure fighter than maidana someone like duran or chavez . i do think floyd is an exceptional talent but i don't see him as better than duran who i think would out work floyd .

[man]

thnx for your constructive comments! really appreciate
it on this neither new nor uncontroversial subject. my
own reasoning goes like this:

it is very hard to see great old fighters without glorifying
them. in their day they used to have their critics too, just
the historical perspective cuts out this part of their perception
as a fighter. i for one believe that the greatest welters of
this generation, like oscar, manny, cotto and floyd would
not fold like amateurs against the fab four. in a tournament
matchup they might lose, but not in embarrassing fashion
IMHO.

what makes floyd stand out for me is the way he wins.
even when he gets hurt, he is still kind of in control of what
is happening. and he does so against current world class
opposition. now that might not be ATG opposition, but still,
we are not talking about a weak division by any means.

quality at the top becomes more and more condensed the
wider the scope. ATG in one division is already very compressed,
ATG p4p even more. so necessarily the top5 p4p are very close.
yet i do not think that there was ever a fighter who was in and
past his prime so untouchable. which makes him in my book
already p4p10. among these 10 it is probably simply taste and
choice rather than expertise which makes one lean towards one
or the other ATG. but i do think that no matter whom you have
on top in his time he was surely not seen like that by all pundits.
sentimental past-bias has always blurred the vision.

[Pureist]

Even snr said floyd was very good but not the greatest, he would have struggled in the hearns, haggler, Leonard and Duran era, I feel he would have been chewed up and spat out by any of the above and that was what snr was alluding too aswell, as for his record, he still has a way to go to catch Chavez before his first loss, fighting pacquaio would strengthen his arguement but so far that hasn't eventuated

[G.McClellan]

Manny has more claim to the P4P GOAT than Floyd. In his last outing Floyd had to clinch his way to victory. He also needed a ref to look the other way while he did it. Even with those advantages I felt the fight was a draw. The points deduction was a ludicrous decision.

Some things Floyd does makes him one of the best of all time. Other things don't.
When you call someone the greatest of all time you should mean it. When it's said in relation to Floyd I don't feel the accompanying pride.

[man]

Even snr said floyd was very good but not the greatest, he would have struggled in the hearns, haggler, Leonard and Duran era, I feel he would have been chewed up and spat out by any of the above and that was what snr was alluding too aswell, as for his record, he still has a way to go to catch Chavez before his first loss, fighting pacquaio would strengthen his arguement but so far that hasn't eventuated

i see the point and agree, but two things:
all of the fab struggled with each other too,
so that would be nothing to be ashamed of.

and second, i could imagine it is senior's
way to stand his own ground, since of course
he had indeed fought one of them fabs.

i for one would love to see the combined
record of opponents. i believe floyd would
really look great on that one. which of course
is not saying too much, but still ...

[man]

Manny has more claim to the P4P GOAT than Floyd. In his last outing Floyd had to clinch his way to victory. He also needed a ref to look the other way while he did it. Even with those advantages I felt the fight was a draw. The points deduction was a ludicrous decision.

Some things Floyd does makes him one of the best of all time. Other things don't.
When you call someone the greatest of all time you should mean it. When it's said in relation to Floyd I don't feel the accompanying pride.

good points. but not even greats killed everyone
in every fight. and i for one believe floyd won
fair and square. close, but not controversial.
and if you assess the ref you must admit chino
is not the cleanest of the craftsmen - and got
away with it.

[Batley18]

It is a huge shout, and I don't think many people would doubt that Floyd should be close, if not in the top 10. I believe he could have been top if he and Pacquiao had fought three years ago. To be the best you gotta beat the best, and that is 95% true for Mayweather because he has accomplished many amazing things. But what he didn't do was take on the other greatest fighter in our era.

Can you imagine Leonard being as iconic if he had fought Benitez, Duran, and Hearns, but never fought Haggler. Or Muhammad Ali if he had fought Norton, Frazier, and Patterson, but never fought Foreman. We can talk about these incredible fights because they did happen, and they were defining fights in their legacies. In twenty years time are people going to remember Mayweather and still talk about how good a fight with Pacquiao would have been? I think they will.

[ReggieDiggs]

In twenty years time are people going to remember Mayweather and still talk about how good a fight with Pacquiao would have been? I think they will.

We are a lil past twenty years from Riddick Bowe throwing his belt in the garbage & gifting it to Lennox Lewis & that fight never happening & I don't recall that being mentioned that often if @ all these days. Idk that either guys rep ultimately has taken much of a hit due to that fight not happening looking @ things from 20 years later. They both get respect, Lennox considerable more so, but he had the bigger career & Riddick is like a crazy uncle who lives in your parents basement these days so that don't help him either. I think the majority opinion is its kinda f#cked up they never fought, but Lennox would have won & thats that.

I think @ this point Floyd's career is on another level from Manny's not unlike Lennox's career vs Riddick's career & Floyd isn't gonna get much negative residue concerning this fight two decades from now. If the fight was gonna happen it likely would have been in 2010 so I think the majority opinion in 2030 will be its kinda f#cked up they never fought, but Floyd would have won & thats that.

[FloydtheDuck]

dumbest thread ever-

like saying the Harlem Globetrotters are the best basketball team ever.

it's all about opposition


if you dont challenge yourself, and take on the best out there, nobody gives a crap

[ReggieDiggs]

it's all about opposition

if you dont challenge yourself, and take on the best out there, nobody gives a crap

And this would explain why Floyd is #1 p4p right now by most everyone ranking current p4p sh!t (as silly as I feel that sh!t is or can be) & his fights are events not just fights.

[man]

dumbest thread ever

leave.

[man]

It is a huge shout, and I don't think many people would doubt that Floyd should be close, if not in the top 10. I believe he could have been top if he and Pacquiao had fought three years ago. To be the best you gotta beat the best, and that is 95% true for Mayweather because he has accomplished many amazing things. But what he didn't do was take on the other greatest fighter in our era.

Can you imagine Leonard being as iconic if he had fought Benitez, Duran, and Hearns, but never fought Haggler. Or Muhammad Ali if he had fought Norton, Frazier, and Patterson, but never fought Foreman. We can talk about these incredible fights because they did happen, and they were defining fights in their legacies. In twenty years time are people going to remember Mayweather and still talk about how good a fight with Pacquiao would have been? I think they will.

good point.

[squiggy]

In twenty years time are people going to remember Mayweather and still talk about how good a fight with Pacquiao would have been? I think they will.

We are a lil past twenty years from Riddick Bowe throwing his belt in the garbage & gifting it to Lennox Lewis & that fight never happening & I don't recall that being mentioned that often if @ all these days. Idk that either guys rep ultimately has taken much of a hit due to that fight not happening looking @ things from 20 years later. They both get respect, Lennox considerable more so, but he had the bigger career & Riddick is like a crazy uncle who lives in your parents basement these days so that don't help him either. I think the majority opinion is its kinda f#cked up they never fought, but Lennox would have won & thats that.

I think @ this point Floyd's career is on another level from Manny's not unlike Lennox's career vs Riddick's career & Floyd isn't gonna get much negative residue concerning this fight two decades from now. If the fight was gonna happen it likely would have been in 2010 so I think the majority opinion in 2030 will be its kinda f#cked up they never fought, but Floyd would have won & thats that.

I think that incident pretty much universally did lower people's estimation of Bowe. Probably the reason it doesn't come up in conversations like this one is that Bowe doesn't really occupy a significant part of anybody's p4p GOAT list anyway.
And the reason it did not hurt Lewis's reputation also points out how it is different from the Mayweather-Pacquiao situation: It wasn't controversial or difficult to figure out who didn't want the fight. One of the two guys literally threw his belt in a trash can to avoid the fight--a uniquely foolish and damning act on Bowe's part.

[IKSRTFO]

In twenty years time are people going to remember Mayweather and still talk about how good a fight with Pacquiao would have been? I think they will.

We are a lil past twenty years from Riddick Bowe throwing his belt in the garbage & gifting it to Lennox Lewis & that fight never happening & I don't recall that being mentioned that often if @ all these days. Idk that either guys rep ultimately has taken much of a hit due to that fight not happening looking @ things from 20 years later. They both get respect, Lennox considerable more so, but he had the bigger career & Riddick is like a crazy uncle who lives in your parents basement these days so that don't help him either. I think the majority opinion is its kinda f#cked up they never fought, but Lennox would have won & thats that.

I think @ this point Floyd's career is on another level from Manny's not unlike Lennox's career vs Riddick's career & Floyd isn't gonna get much negative residue concerning this fight two decades from now. If the fight was gonna happen it likely would have been in 2010 so I think the majority opinion in 2030 will be its kinda f#cked up they never fought, but Floyd would have won & thats that.

Had Bowe beaten Lewis, no doubt his legacy would be bigger and Lewis wouldn't be looked at with as high regard. Had Lewis not beaten totally shot Tyson then people still would be claiming that Lewis never would've beaten Tyson.

[ReggieDiggs]

Probably the reason it doesn't come up in conversations like this one is that Bowe doesn't really occupy a significant part of anybody's p4p GOAT list anyway.

1998 Ring Magazine Greatest HW's of all time has Riddick #23 & Lennox #32. Riddick threw that belt in the garbage in 92. Now Lennox surely has gained some ground since than as he fought for several more years, but Riddick's career was basically over in 98 outside of some false restarts vs bs journeymen kinda guys.
http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Divis ... f_All-Time

[ReggieDiggs]

Had Bowe beaten Lewis, no doubt his legacy would be bigger and Lewis wouldn't be looked at with as high regard.

Obviously. If Riddick had beaten Lennox or Lennox had beaten Riddick the winner gets a bump. But it didnt happen so neither got that bump or drop due to winning or losing a fight that didnt happen.

[TexMex04]

I wouldn't say he is the greatest of all time, but I would go so far as to say he is the greatest skilled boxer of all time. I believe his skills are no match for anyone in the history of boxing.

[ReggieDiggs]

I wouldn't say he is the greatest of all time, but I would go so far as to say he is the greatest skilled boxer of all time. I believe his skills are no match for anyone in the history of boxing.

Who are the other greatest fighters of all time in your opinion & how many of their fights have you watched?

[NateJR]

Floyd is in the discussion and is among one of the ATGs.

I wouldn't rank Floyd as the GOAT, that title belongs with SRR. But do I think a prime Floyd is every bit as skilled as SRR? Absolutely.

[IKSRTFO]

Had Bowe beaten Lewis, no doubt his legacy would be bigger and Lewis wouldn't be looked at with as high regard.

Obviously. If Riddick had beaten Lennox or Lennox had beaten Riddick the winner gets a bump. But it didnt happen so neither got that bump or drop due to winning or losing a fight that didnt happen.

Riddick has been labeled as "lazy" and "talented but never made the most of his skills" and the general consensus is that Lennox was better. Had he beaten Lennox, it would've been just as career defining or more as his victory over Holyfield.

[ReggieDiggs]

Had Bowe beaten Lewis, no doubt his legacy would be bigger and Lewis wouldn't be looked at with as high regard.

Obviously. If Riddick had beaten Lennox or Lennox had beaten Riddick the winner gets a bump. But it didnt happen so neither got that bump or drop due to winning or losing a fight that didnt happen.

Riddick has been labeled as "lazy" and "talented but never made the most of his skills" and the general consensus is that Lennox was better. Had he beaten Lennox, it would've been just as career defining or more as his victory over Holyfield.

Grass is green. Sky is blue. Roses are red. I'm not arguing with you.