Will AIBA APB bouts be included in the BOXREC database?

[yu265545]

AIBA Pro Boxing (APB) is starting their professional tournament on October 24, 2014. It includes amateur stars like Medzhidov and Joe Ward, as well as professionals like Marcos Nader.

http://www.aibaproboxing.com/2014/09/17 ... w-results/

We all know that BOXREC refused to include WSB bouts in the database despite the overwhelming evidence that they were professional bouts. See this thread with responses from the moderators as well as the Ring Magazine article:
http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=129456
http://ringtv.craveonline.com/news/3225 ... ing-divide

Will BOXREC include APB bouts in the database?

[ReggieDiggs]

So dramatic.

[Boxing Writer]

We all know that BOXREC refused to include WSB bouts in the database despite the overwhelming evidence that they were professional bouts

WSB uses amateur gloves = no way it should be counted as pro fights. But if APB uses real professional gloves, that's another story

[sucracristo]

WSB uses amateur gloves = no way it should be counted as pro fights. But if APB uses real professional gloves, that's another story

there is no such thing as amateur gloves. the association of boxing commissions, which is all
the boxing commissions in the united states, and fightfax, the registry of professional records,
recorded wsb as pro. they have professional records in the united states as they fought professional,
sanctioned as pro cards by the state commissions, paid said commissions the fees for holding
professional cards, paid professional officials, had promters licenses to stage the events, and the
fighters were salaried and earned bonuses with licenses.
boxrec is just refusing to recognize licensed professional boxing on its own, like if i decided
pacquiao didn't get knocked out by marquez and came on here denying it was professional
so it shouldn't be on his record and became a boxrec editor. it doesn't change reality

[tiny_acres]

WSB uses amateur gloves = no way it should be counted as pro fights. But if APB uses real professional gloves, that's another story

there is no such thing as amateur gloves. the association of boxing commissions, which is all
the boxing commissions in the united states, and fightfax, the registry of professional records,
recorded wsb as pro. they have professional records in the united states as they fought professional,
sanctioned as pro cards by the state commissions, paid said commissions the fees for holding
professional cards, paid professional officials, had promters licenses to stage the events, and the
fighters were salaried and earned bonuses with licenses.
boxrec is just refusing to recognize licensed professional boxing on its own, like if i decided
pacquiao didn't get knocked out by marquez and came on here denying it was professional
so it shouldn't be on his record and became a boxrec editor. it doesn't change reality

You sir are 100% correct.
We can try and change our perception of reality.But the truth is still there.These are pro fights.
Basic bottom line they are paid to fight.It is the true definition of the term pro boxer.

[LomaUsykKlichko]

Souldnt fights be recorded por when the fighters actually says hes turning pro.

[sucracristo]

Souldnt fights be recorded por when the fighters actually says hes turning pro.

that's interesting. so you think every boxer should decide for himself how many of
his licensed and sanctioned professional fights should count on his record
and not the boxing commissions?

[Boxing Prospect]

One question I want answering about Fightfax is "do they record bouts of fighters in countries like Thailand and Indonesia?" Or is it just US bouts?

[sucracristo]

One question I want answering about Fightfax is "do they record bouts of fighters in countries like Thailand and Indonesia?" Or is it just US bouts?

it's the directory used by the "association of boxing commisions" in the united states and canada.
it is against the law to stage cards not sanctioned by the state commissions (provinces in canada).
there are neighboring state commissions who sanction fights in states that don't have their
own commissions. as far as wsb and apb go, the boxing commissions license them as
professional cards. it is by law professional boxing. boxrec is just deciding that united states
law isn't as important as their subjective opinions as to whether or not a fight is pro.
are all the cards held in the united states? nope. but if you start off recognizing that by
law the usa cards are, which include the visiting teams, then the visiting teams are also
all licensed professionals by law, and anyone who fights them outside north america would thus
be fighting boxers who fight as licensed professionals in the north america. the cards pay
the professional sanction fees to the commissions. if wsb denies they are a pro circuit, all you have
to do is pull their promoters license and paperwork where they signed under penalty of perjury
that they are staging professional boxing events in the united states. they don't deny
that they are professional cards, though

[ReggieDiggs]

I love that this is so controversial & people got their panties in a bunch over it.

Some mfers need to get a dictionary. The word amateur means to engage in a sport as an unpaid participant. I've always thought amateur anything is kinda bs when you get paid regardless if its a purse/salary or per diem/stipend deal. Getting paid is what should end amateur status, but if getting money doesn't end amateur status & we're just drawing some random line @ what "amateur" means who really cares where it ends @ a certain point cuz it aint been amateur since cats have been getting paid. And amateur boxers have been getting money to some degree for awhile as far as I understand it.

[sucracristo]

I love that this is so controversial & people got their panties in a bunch over it.

Some mfers need to get a dictionary. The word amateur means to engage in a sport as an unpaid participant. I've always thought amateur anything is kinda bs when you get paid regardless if its a purse/salary or per diem/stipend deal. Getting paid is what should end amateur status, but if getting money doesn't end amateur status & we're just drawing some random line @ what "amateur" means who really cares where it ends @ a certain point cuz it aint been amateur since cats have been getting paid. And amateur boxers have been getting money to some degree for awhile as far as I understand it.

how dense are you?

[ReggieDiggs]

I love that this is so controversial & people got their panties in a bunch over it.

Some mfers need to get a dictionary. The word amateur means to engage in a sport as an unpaid participant. I've always thought amateur anything is kinda bs when you get paid regardless if its a purse/salary or per diem/stipend deal. Getting paid is what should end amateur status, but if getting money doesn't end amateur status & we're just drawing some random line @ what "amateur" means who really cares where it ends @ a certain point cuz it aint been amateur since cats have been getting paid. And amateur boxers have been getting money to some degree for awhile as far as I understand it.

how dense are you?

No clue what you are taking issue with so how f#cking dense are you? Guys have been getting $$$ before this AIBA sh!t. Who gives a sh!t, amateur is meaningless.

[sucracristo]

No clue what you are taking issue with so how f#cking dense are you? Guys have been getting $$$ before this AIBA sh!t. Who gives a sh!t, amateur is meaningless.

let me help you, then.
a guy is sitting there holding a professional boxing license issued from a state commission
with his name and other personal info on it. is he an amateur? i mean, how complicated
is this? "what does it matter? you're all wearing panties. bla bla"
this is just retarded. if someone is a licensed professional, he is a professional by law.
it's not a philosophical argument. can you practice medicine without a license? no.
having licenses matters on this planet. stage a pro boxing card without a promoters
license and you will wind up in jail. this would be what i meant when i called you dense

[ReggieDiggs]

No clue what you are taking issue with so how f#cking dense are you? Guys have been getting $$$ before this AIBA sh!t. Who gives a sh!t, amateur is meaningless.

let me help you, then.
a guy is sitting there holding a professional boxing license issued from a state commission
with his name and other personal info on it. is he an amateur? i mean, how complicated
is this? "what does it matter? you're all wearing panties. bla bla"
this is just retarded. if someone is a licensed professional, he is a professional by law.
it's not a philosophical argument. can you practice medicine without a license? no.
having licenses matters on this planet. stage a pro boxing card without a promoters
license and you will wind up in jail. this would be what i meant when i called you dense

Again I ask how f#cking dense are you. I'm saying the sh!t you were saying was amateur before wasn't f#cking amateur cuz "amateur" boxers were getting money. I could give a sh!t about some guy with or without a pro license. He wasn't an amateur before AIBA came along with this WSOB stuff or he got some license. The amateur boxing amateurness had been raped long ago.

[Boxing Prospect]

One question I want answering about Fightfax is "do they record bouts of fighters in countries like Thailand and Indonesia?" Or is it just US bouts?

it's the directory used by the "association of boxing commisions" in the united states and canada.
it is against the law to stage cards not sanctioned by the state commissions (provinces in canada).
there are neighboring state commissions who sanction fights in states that don't have their
own commissions. as far as wsb and apb go, the boxing commissions license them as
professional cards. it is by law professional boxing. boxrec is just deciding that united states
law isn't as important as their subjective opinions as to whether or not a fight is pro.
are all the cards held in the united states? nope. but if you start off recognizing that by
law the usa cards are, which include the visiting teams, then the visiting teams are also
all licensed professionals by law, and anyone who fights them outside north america would thus
be fighting boxers who fight as licensed professionals in the north america. the cards pay
the professional sanction fees to the commissions. if wsb denies they are a pro circuit, all you have
to do is pull their promoters license and paperwork where they signed under penalty of perjury
that they are staging professional boxing events in the united states. they don't deny
that they are professional cards, though

....well done on not really answering the question. The question has nothing to do with the ABC's I merely want to know if I can contact them for full records of some Thai's that I know boxrec have incomplete records if. I have footage of fights that aren't on here and want to be able to contain fight fax to get the accurate records of those fighters.

[ringtoneboxing]

I am genuinely interested to read this question on whether APB results will or should be included on Boxrec. Although some of the arguments here so far have been a little absurd, others have brought up valid points.

APB (AIBA Pro Boxing) - fighters getting paid to fight exclusively under the AIBA banner, their own sanctioned competitions. In other words, fighters signed to APB cannot fight outside of AIBA sanctioned events. Javonta Charles may not call out Marco Huck for example (or he can but he'd not be allowed to fight him without breaking his AIBA contract).

I see these AIBA series as somewhere in between amateur and professional and therefore they should have their own classificiation, not mixed in with existing boxing in either of the two established codes.

In my own opinion, WSB and APB bouts should not be included on Boxrec and not be counted on a professional record should any fighter turn pro somewhere down the line. By turning pro I mean in the classical sense, leaving AIBA and Olympic elegibility.

So for me it's simple, consider it as just something different altogether. A strange brew of amateur and pro. It could be a really good concept as it has a few benefits over existing pro boxing but it all depends on who cares about it and that depends on the level of quality you'll see. Then again, Lomachenko has been involved in WSB so their talent pool can't be too bad.

[yu265545]

How is the AIBA exclusivity over their fighters any different from the other exclusive promotional contracts that currently exist in pro-boxing. Javonta Charles could certainly fight Marco Huck as long both promoters (AIBA and Sauerland) were able to reach an agreement. Just like Top Rank and GoldenBoy fighters not being able to fight outside of their exclusive promotional agreements unless their promoters agree. Other examples, during the Contender television series and copycats around the world, those fighters could not fight outside of the Contender format and yet BOXREC considers those as professional fights. AIBA does not have permanent exclusivity - the fighters sign fixed-term contracts like any other professional and when it expires they would be free to sign with any other promoter.

How does being subject to an exclusive promotional agreement render you a non-professional? The name of the promotion is "AIBA PROFESSIONAL BOXING"

I am genuinely interested to read this question on whether APB results will or should be included on Boxrec. Although some of the arguments here so far have been a little absurd, others have brought up valid points.

APB (AIBA Pro Boxing) - fighters getting paid to fight exclusively under the AIBA banner, their own sanctioned competitions. In other words, fighters signed to APB cannot fight outside of AIBA sanctioned events. Javonta Charles may not call out Marco Huck for example (or he can but he'd not be allowed to fight him without breaking his AIBA contract).

I see these AIBA series as somewhere in between amateur and professional and therefore they should have their own classificiation, not mixed in with existing boxing in either of the two established codes.

In my own opinion, WSB and APB bouts should not be included on Boxrec and not be counted on a professional record should any fighter turn pro somewhere down the line. By turning pro I mean in the classical sense, leaving AIBA and Olympic elegibility.

So for me it's simple, consider it as just something different altogether. A strange brew of amateur and pro. It could be a really good concept as it has a few benefits over existing pro boxing but it all depends on who cares about it and that depends on the level of quality you'll see. Then again, Lomachenko has been involved in WSB so their talent pool can't be too bad.

[Boxing Writer]

WSB uses amateur gloves = no way it should be counted as pro fights. But if APB uses real professional gloves, that's another story

there is no such thing as amateur gloves. the association of boxing commissions, which is all
the boxing commissions in the united states, and fightfax, the registry of professional records,
recorded wsb as pro. they have professional records in the united states as they fought professional,
sanctioned as pro cards by the state commissions, paid said commissions the fees for holding
professional cards, paid professional officials, had promters licenses to stage the events, and the
fighters were salaried and earned bonuses with licenses.
boxrec is just refusing to recognize licensed professional boxing on its own, like if i decided
pacquiao didn't get knocked out by marquez and came on here denying it was professional
so it shouldn't be on his record and became a boxrec editor. it doesn't change reality

You sir are 100% correct.
We can try and change our perception of reality.But the truth is still there.These are pro fights.
Basic bottom line they are paid to fight.It is the true definition of the term pro boxer.

Amateur fighters are paid to fight too. They are making money for living in the ring. Guys like Magomedrasul Medjidov makes MUCH more money in the amatuer boxing than many pro fighters do. That's the reason why he isn't turning pro. Bottom line is that amateurs are paid too. Not for every particular fight, but they get salary from the government or national boxing federation.

[ringtoneboxing]

How is the AIBA exclusivity over their fighters any different from the other exclusive promotional contracts that currently exist in pro-boxing.

Whether you like it or agree with it or not makes no difference, but I do not beleive APB is open to fighters outside of the AIBA organisation.

Yes, it's professional in that the fighters are paid but there is not (to my knowledge) any affiliation to any other sanctioning body (WBC, WBA, IBF etc) and so within the current framework of WSB & APB, fighters cannot fight for a title with another organisation (again, to my limited knowledge) and so far have never tried to.

The difference with Marco Huck and the code of boxing he fights under is that he can contest belts within multiple sanctioning bodies. Javonta Charles may contest titles with AIBA only.

You may see the situation differently, this is just how I see things at present and I'm more than happy to admit I'm wrong, if I am.

[sucracristo]

Amateur fighters are paid to fight too. They are making money for living in the ring. Guys like Magomedrasul Medjidov makes MUCH more money in the amatuer boxing than many pro fighters do. That's the reason why he isn't turning pro. Bottom line is that amateurs are paid too. Not for every particular fight, but they get salary from the government or national boxing federation.

once again, this only supports the argument that some boxers being called amateurs are really professionals,
not that some licensed professionals are really amateurs, as is boxrec policy. it's not philosophy. it's the law.
you can say you don't care about the law, bla bla, and if the moon was made out of cheese and rats were
astronauts, but if you sign a piece of paper applying for a professional license, then you KNOW and ATTEST
to the fact that you are subject to the laws regarding professional boxing, and the promoters do also.
while you're at it, park on the sidwalk and practice brain surgery in your garage and set up a bowling alley
across the highway. who care about laws, dude?

[TheBeast]

Bigger is better boxing heavyweight tournaments aren't listed here either

[Boxing Prospect]

Bigger is better boxing heavyweight tournaments aren't listed here either

They have explained their stance on that in the past.

The last Korean card wasn't listed despite having a WBC youth title fight on it O_o

[sucracristo]

Bigger is better boxing heavyweight tournaments aren't listed here either

i know that is all professionally licensed fighters, but do they fight by the same rules
as normal boxing? they have one weight class, 175 and up, with an extra round in the final
if it's a draw, and basically the same format as prizefighter, right (which boxrec does list)?
i've never seen it. if the rules are significantly different, it could be considered another sport.

wsb and apb are actually licensed professionals on pro cards staged with pro promoters
licenses and sanctioned and officiated by the state commissions. it IS professional boxing.
yeah, it's a fight league, kind of like ifl was pro kickboxing even though they couldn't
fight k-1 under their contract, and bodog is pro mma even though they probably
can't fight ufc under their contract. i can't think of other fight leagues in boxing,
but that has nothing to do with whether it's pro boxing or not. by law and by their
own signitures on all the documents and permits and licenses, wsb and apb are pro
boxing by law. yeah, they can retain their olympic eligibility, but the olympics has nba, nhl,
wta, atp, premier league, bundasliga, pro track athletes, pro volleyball, pro skiiers, etc.
boxing is just one more olympic sport now that admits pros. there is no valid argument
that wsb and apb are not pro boxing. if they even denied it publicly in the united states,
they would be called in front of the commissions and have their licenses pulled.

[sucracristo]

One question I want answering about Fightfax is "do they record bouts of fighters in countries like Thailand and Indonesia?" Or is it just US bouts?

it's the directory used by the "association of boxing commisions" in the united states and canada.

....well done on not really answering the question.

sir, is thailand or indonesia in the united states or canada?
again, they issue federal id's to pros in the usa and canada and track their records.
they publish a book that has records of foreign fighters but contact them to
ask how thorough their records are in asia [email protected]

[Boxing Prospect]

So the "official record keepers" are really a US appointed organisation telling the world what the US views as pro boxing whilst having no real recognition internationally?

I'll contact them on the Asian thing though, I tend to feel no one has very complete records of some guys from over there, including a current PABA and WBC youth champion.

Until someone is recognised WORLDWIDE as an official record keeper there will be debates on what professional boxing is. Ranging from things like Bigger is Better, WSB, APB, White Collar, Semi Pro and even some tough man events.

Fightfax charging money to access the records is, for me, an issue. All records should be free and and anyone should be able to view them at any time. Though that's an aside.

Re fight fax vs Boxrec, I think the argument lies with which side of the Atlantic your from. Likewise the JBC don't recognise some fights fought with some female fighters fought before the JBC accepted female boxing, but boxrec does recognise them, depends where you live with that one.