Will AIBA APB bouts be included in the BOXREC database?

[ReggieDiggs]

Until someone is recognised WORLDWIDE as an official record keeper there will be debates on what professional boxing is. Ranging from things like Bigger is Better, WSB, APB, White Collar, Semi Pro and even some tough man events.

On point here.

Amateur boxing has moved the goalposts on what amateur boxing is over time & in my & most reasonable peoples view it hasn't REALLY been "amateur" for awhile so what exactly is the big deal now is kinda the outlook. I also would tend to trust worldwide amateur athletics people deciding what is "amateur" more than a bunch of uppity Western society pro boxing record nerds.

[yu265545]

The "big deal" to me is that is an issue of fairness.

Some 16 year-old in Mexico gets knocked out in his pro-debut and starts his career 2-3 that record sticks with him for the rest of his life. It is all an uphill battle for him the rest of the way. There is no more shiny glossy record that for better or worse can mean so much for a boxer's earning power. He doesn't get any do-overs, he can't wipe the slate clean saying, "those were not really professional fights, I should be undefeated".

When you don't include WSB and APB fights as professional, you are creating two classes of boxing. Some Kazakh or Ajerbaijani with 300 amateur fights and probably as good if not better than 70% of "professionals" gets to earn money in APB and WSB fighting risk free. Get knocked out? Who cares, you are still 0-0. Why do some boxers get to fight professionally without any risk to their record and earning power and the rest of the poor saps risk that undefeated record every time they lace them up?

Marcos Nader, who is 18-1-1 according to BOXREC, who up to now had all 20 fights count on his record, all of sudden he is no longer a professional and his future APB fights won't count for God knows what reason?

Matteas Modugno was 12-0 according to BOXREC fighting tomato cans. He goes to WSB where he loses a decision to Joseph Joyce, a better fighter than any of the 12 guys he fought as a pro. And yet, he gets to keep his shiny undefeated record - how is that fair?

Once again:
1. No headgear
2. No vests
3. 10 point must system
4. 5-7 rounds
5. Fighters are Paid

When watching a WSB fight, can you tell me there is any difference the sport that you are watching with your own eyes and the sport you see on Sky/ESPN2/HBO/Showtime?

I am a proud pro-boxing record nerd. I love BOXREC. I spend more time on this site than any other. I love going through boxing records almost as much as I do watching the fights. I don't give a crap about Fightfax or any other record keeping organization. I care about BOXREC and that is why it bothers me when they arbitrarily exclude professional bouts in the database.

Until someone is recognised WORLDWIDE as an official record keeper there will be debates on what professional boxing is. Ranging from things like Bigger is Better, WSB, APB, White Collar, Semi Pro and even some tough man events.

On point here.

Amateur boxing has moved the goalposts on what amateur boxing is over time & in my & most reasonable peoples view it hasn't REALLY been "amateur" for awhile so what exactly is the big deal now is kinda the outlook. I also would tend to trust worldwide amateur athletics people deciding what is "amateur" more than a bunch of uppity Western society pro boxing record nerds.

[JMac]

Don't worry. When AIBA takes over pro boxing, it will all change. At least, that's their plan. The President is CK Wu. He is a billionaire and likes to get his way. Money talks. Who knows, once they start signing all of the best boxers and not Haymon or Arum, maybe pro boxing becomes exciting again and good fighters fight good fighters and a loss or many loses on your record doesn't matter much just the old days or even the UFC. I'm tired of good boxers fighting bums or not being allowed to fight other top boxers because they are signed by the "other" manager or network. It would nice to see one world champion in each weight class not multiple BS champs. It would be nice if everyone in the world knew who the world champ is in any given weight class like the old days. Wishful thinking I know.

[ReggieDiggs]

The "big deal" to me is that is an issue of fairness.

Guess what sweetheart. Sh!t ain't fair. This is a big mean world full of injustice.

Amateur is a meaningless term in sports today. Boxing or otherwise in most fields. It should be semipro @ best. Based merely on the getting paid part anyone with a stipend or per diem for their lunch due to being a boxer should have their amateur fights counted as pro fights. If we ain't going to that level wtf are we debating? Amateur boxing ALREADY ain't amateur so why the butthurtedness? Cuz they moved the amateur goalposts again? Get elected Supreme leader of amateur boxing or overthrow the current guy & change sh!t than, but don't b!tch & moan & expect anyone to care when the goalposts get moved 3 yards from a spot where sh!t don't make sense with what the reality should be to another spot where sh!t don't make sense with what the reality should be.

[ReggieDiggs]

Don't worry. When AIBA takes over pro boxing, it will all change. At least, that's their plan. The President is CK Wu. He is a billionaire and likes to get his way. Money talks. Who knows, once they start signing all of the best boxers and not Haymon or Arum, maybe pro boxing becomes exciting again and good fighters fight good fighters and a loss or many loses on your record doesn't matter much just the old days or even the UFC. I'm tired of good boxers fighting bums or not being allowed to fight other top boxers because they are signed by the "other" manager or network. It would nice to see one world champion in each weight class not multiple BS champs. It would be nice if everyone in the world knew who the world champ is in any given weight class like the old days. Wishful thinking I know.

There is a part of me rooting for this crazy mfer...not gonna lie. Certainly having everything under one roof so to speak only makes things better for fans.

[JCS]

BoxRec should probably include these fights for ratings/rankings purposes, but exclude them from the W-L-D/KO counts. Count them under a separate tally...

This way, it affects fighters' standing in the division, but doesn't affect the "pro" records.

List them in the records within a separate table, or chronologically in a way that it is obvious that they aren't being "counted".

[sucracristo]

So the "official record keepers" are really a US appointed organisation telling the world what the US views as pro boxing whilst having no real recognition internationally?

uhhhhh, no. again, by LAW they are pros. it isn't fight fax that decides they are pros.
there are state and federal LAWS that define pro boxing. thus it would be the law.
the thing that makes them pros is the law. that would mean they are pros by law.
if you want to continue to argue the subject, just stage a boxing event of your own
and ignore all laws. i encourage you to do so. you can sit behind bars arguing with
your cell mate while being butt raped all night as to whether what you did was illegal
and required specific state professional licenses, etc.
it really doesn't matter if, in your opinion, you don't need a license to drive on public roads.
it really doesn't matter if, in your opinion, it is perfecdtly legal to shoot heroin in the street.
if you want to prove you aren't full of crap, walk away from your computer and go outside
and prove it. we can all sit and watch what happens. what happnens to you will determine
the validity of what you are typing here. i already know what will happen to you. call my psychic.
don't you think aiba would have staged the cards WITHOUT getting pro promoter licenses issued
by state government authorities regulating boxing and all the boxers would have fought WITHOUT
getting pro licenses issued by state government authorities regulating boxing if it wasn't
professional boxing? why did they all get licensed and pay the fees and sign on the dotted line
under penalty of perjury attesting to it being pro boxing if it wasn't?
it's not like the united states and canada have very many big fights anyways, right?
maybe boxrec should just go with what samoa says wsb and apb is.

[Boxing Prospect]

So the "official record keepers" are really a US appointed organisation telling the world what the US views as pro boxing whilst having no real recognition internationally?

uhhhhh, no. again, by LAW they are pros. it isn't fight fax that decides they are pros.
there are state and federal LAWS that define pro boxing. thus it would be the law.
the thing that makes them pros is the law. that would mean they are pros by law.
if you want to continue to argue the subject, just stage a boxing event of your own
and ignore all laws. i encourage you to do so. you can sit behind bars arguing with
your cell mate while being butt raped all night as to whether what you did was illegal
and required specific state professional licenses, etc.
it really doesn't matter if, in your opinion, you don't need a license to drive on public roads.
it really doesn't matter if, in your opinion, it is perfecdtly legal to shoot heroin in the street.
if you want to prove you aren't full of crap, walk away from your computer and go outside
and prove it. we can all sit and watch what happens. what happnens to you will determine
the validity of what you are typing here. i already know what will happen to you. call my psychic.
don't you think aiba would have staged the cards WITHOUT getting pro promoter licenses issued
by state government authorities regulating boxing and all the boxers would have fought WITHOUT
getting pro licenses issued by state government authorities regulating boxing if it wasn't
professional boxing? why did they all get licensed and pay the fees and sign on the dotted line
under penalty of perjury attesting to it being pro boxing if it wasn't?
it's not like the united states and canada have very many big fights anyways, right?
maybe boxrec should just go with what samoa says wsb and apb is.

...what you've basically told me to do is set up a white collar boxing show, which is legal in the UK but not recorded on boxrec. Again regional bodies seem to dictate what is and what isn't professional. The ABC's and US law can't make other countries bend over and accept their rulings. As far as I'm aware the JBC doesn't recognise APB as professional boxing, is the US to over-rule Japan on whether APB is professional? I mentioned Japan as I know Satoshi Shimizu is involved, like wise I wonder what the KBF's stance is considering a Korean is involved.

It's also worth asking, where are these bouts taking place anyway? Is the APB expected to have shows in the US? (Honest question)

Also, for what it's worth. There was a Scottish boxer who pretty much did what you told me to do. He was banned for drugs and LITERALLY created his own title to win. His organisation was called the "Professional Boxing Organisation".
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/boxi ... 30-2123371

His title win isn't on boxrec's database despite the bout being considered a professional contest.

[sucracristo]

wsb season 1: teams in miami, LA, memphis. only other team in this conference was mexico, which also licensed it as pro
wsb season 2: LA team hosted astana, milan, mumbai, moscow, bangkok, meaning all those teams were licensed pros by law
wsb season 3: miami team
wsb season 4: miami team

britain has had one team only one season. why would brits decide this?
from wsb site: http://www.worldseriesboxing.com/index.php/inside-wsb
"the first event which sees national-based pro boxing teams go head to head in a league format"

other countries (italy for example) have also had participants who had already fought as licensed pros.
it is NOT just the united states and canada that recognize wsb as pro by law, and the visiting teams of course
were all professionally licensed in order to fight in those other countries, too, meaning there are professional
licenses with the names of most, if not all, of wsb participants on them.

[sucracristo]

As far as I'm aware the JBC doesn't recognise APB as professional boxing, is the US to over-rule Japan on whether APB is professional?

what was the name of the japanese wsb franchise and how many cards did they host? (answer is zero)
japan can decide not to recognize licensed professional boxing in other countries if they choose.
i don't get a lot of confidence from your statement "as far as i'm aware", though.
either you know or you don't. do they ignore licensed professional boxing in the united states
and canada and mexico or and other countries or not?

Also, for what it's worth. There was a Scottish boxer

i have no idea what the laws in scotland are, tbh. did scotland have wsb?
i'm not sure what the boxing laws in somalia are, either.
again, wsb cards were held in places with state run boxing commissions and were
licensed as professional cards with licensed professional boxers. if you tried to run
those very same cards without said licenses, you would be behind bars.
you can choose not to recognize american, canadian, mexican, italian, etc, laws
if you don't live in those places, but that choice has no bearing over whether licensed
professional boxing is professional. there wouldn't have been a wsb without usa teams.

[Boxing Prospect]

As far as I'm aware the JBC doesn't recognise APB as professional boxing, is the US to over-rule Japan on whether APB is professional?

what was the name of the japanese wsb franchise and how many cards did they host? (answer is zero)
japan can decide not to recognize licensed professional boxing in other countries if they choose.
i'm don't get a lot of confidence from your statement "as far as i'm aware", though.
either you know or you don't. do they ignore licensed professional boxing in the united states
and canada and mexico or and other countries or not?

Also, for what it's worth. There was a Scottish boxer

i have no idea what the laws in scotland are, tbo. did scotland have wsb?
i'm not sure what the boxing laws in somalia are, either.
again, wsb cards were held in places with state run boxing commissions and were
licensed as professional cards with licensed professional boxers. if you tried to run
those very same cards without said licenses, you would be behind bars.
you can choose not to recognize american, canadian, mexican, italian, etc, laws
if you don't live in those places, but that choice has no bearing over whether licensed
professional boxing is professional. there wouldn't have been a wsb without usa teams.

Scotland having WSB or not is irregardless to the fact that a guy fought with a license he effectively made up and didn't end up behind bars. Your previous argument as that he would go to prison doesn't hold true. Like wise White Collar boxing is "pro style" and no one has gone to prison for it and, guess what, the fighters can make money from it. Effectively the definition of professional boxing yet those fights aren't on boxrec.

"Unlicensed" fights are legal, and can be big money in certain communities. Should they be counted as they get paid for them and they are fought with out head gear?

Just because the WSB and APB dress it us as professional doesn't mean people are going to accept it as professional.

The pit thing was sanctioned as a professional bout by the commission as well though I'd not term that as professional boxing either.

[sucracristo]

"Unlicensed" fights are legal

the quote from their own page was not edited. the quote says "pro boxing".
you may find that "pro style" term elsewhere on the page, but "pro boxing" means pro boxing.
i addressed your scotland point already so you can either read it or not.
somebody in uganda theoretically could stage gunfights with the winner cannibalizing the
loser while still alive for all i know. how things are done in a fleabag mud pile somewhere
doesn't effect whether or not the wsb existed or not. united states licensing did.
aiba got the government licenses and paid the fees to the commissions to stage pro events in the usa.
they attested to the fact that it is pro. they didn't argue the matter. if they didn't get the licenses
the fights wouldn't have taken place in the usa or other countries, and if the usa was not involved,
especially from the start, there would not have been a wsb. existing or not matters. licenses matter.
if you think they don't you need to clean out that bong and deal with reality. only in some half baked
philosophical alternate universe did aiba not get professional licenses, and yeah it matters.

[toddh5220]

So the "official record keepers" are really a US appointed organisation telling the world what the US views as pro boxing whilst having no real recognition internationally?

uhhhhh, no. again, by LAW they are pros. it isn't fight fax that decides they are pros.
there are state and federal LAWS that define pro boxing. thus it would be the law.
the thing that makes them pros is the law. that would mean they are pros by law.
if you want to continue to argue the subject, just stage a boxing event of your own
and ignore all laws. i encourage you to do so. you can sit behind bars arguing with
your cell mate while being butt raped all night as to whether what you did was illegal
and required specific state professional licenses, etc.
it really doesn't matter if, in your opinion, you don't need a license to drive on public roads.
it really doesn't matter if, in your opinion, it is perfecdtly legal to shoot heroin in the street.
if you want to prove you aren't full of crap, walk away from your computer and go outside
and prove it. we can all sit and watch what happens. what happnens to you will determine
the validity of what you are typing here. i already know what will happen to you. call my psychic.
don't you think aiba would have staged the cards WITHOUT getting pro promoter licenses issued
by state government authorities regulating boxing and all the boxers would have fought WITHOUT
getting pro licenses issued by state government authorities regulating boxing if it wasn't
professional boxing? why did they all get licensed and pay the fees and sign on the dotted line
under penalty of perjury attesting to it being pro boxing if it wasn't?
it's not like the united states and canada have very many big fights anyways, right?
may.

You are correct for the first 3 seasons of WSB, however season 4 was different. In season 4 the state of Florida decided not to license the boxers, require them to get federal IDs or sanction the shows. All shows were sanctioned by USA Boxing / AIBA. HOWEVER, the ABC decided to add the fights to fightfax, and there is litigation pending now.