Watching little guys fight

[davie]

Reading some comments yesterday from Boxing prospect about entertaining fights from the lower weight divisions, I thought I'd given them a watch.

started with Roman Gonzalez v Akira Yaegashi at Flywieght and it was a very good fight but there was one little thing that niggled me,
then watched Francisco Rodriguez Jr vs Katsunari Takuyama at minimum weight and that little thing became even more obvious.

These fights are good for action, plenty of punches thrown, lots of movement etc
but it all loses something when you think about why they are throwing so many punches....
It's because they can get away with it.

Heavier weight classes have to think a lot more about whats coming back at them. and although that may, at times, result in less action, there is an art to it.
particularly up at the top end where taking one punch can end the fight.
A jab is often thrown to deter an opponent from throwing back, a combination is often thrown to deter your opponent from trying to counter single shot, these little guys can quite happily throw punches in 6s and 7s, while their opponent throws back at the exact same time with little effect. As entertaining as that is, it certainly takes something away from the defensive aspect of the fight game for me.

I wont say I didn't enjoy these fights but it definitely wasn't the same, it didn't feel like it had the same drama, particularly the minimum wieght fight, the only time you felt there might be a stoppage was when the 2 of them got really tired and even then, their feather fisted punches were weakened further through fatigue. you couldn't imagine for a second one of them would score a KO in the first 6 rounds
i'd be interested at boxing prospects thought on this, as someone who promotes these lower weighht classes on here or from anyone else who enjoys the lighter divisions.

[Datsue]

Reading some comments yesterday from Boxing prospect about entertaining fights from the lower weight divisions, I thought I'd given them a watch.

started with Roman Gonzalez v Akira Yaegashi at Flywieght and it was a very good fight but there was one little thing that niggled me,
then watched Francisco Rodriguez Jr vs Katsunari Takuyama at minimum weight and that little thing became even more obvious.

These fights are good for action, plenty of punches thrown, lots of movement etc
but it all loses something when you think about why they are throwing so many punches....
It's because they can get away with it.

Heavier weight classes have to think a lot more about whats coming back at them. and although that may, at times, result in less action, there is an art to it.
particularly up at the top end where taking one punch can end the fight.
A jab is often thrown to deter an opponent from throwing back, a combination is often thrown to deter your opponent from trying to counter single shot, these little guys can quite happily throw punches in 6s and 7s, while their opponent throws back at the exact same time with little effect. As entertaining as that is, it certainly takes something away from the defensive aspect of the fight game for me.

I wont say I didn't enjoy these fights but it definitely wasn't the same, it didn't feel like it had the same drama, particularly the minimum wieght fight, the only time you felt there might be a stoppage was when the 2 of them got really tired and even then, their feather fisted punches were weakened further through fatigue. you couldn't imagine for a second one of them would score a KO in the first 6 rounds
i'd be interested at boxing prospects thought on this, as someone who promotes these lower weighht classes on here or from anyone else who enjoys the lighter divisions.

You're making a few gross generalisations there mate? Neither Rodriguez nor Takayama can punch for shite, they're both swarmers by style. If I watched Lucas Browne fight & declared no heavies can block a shot with anything else other than their face, would I be correct?

Also, Gonzalez, for a pressure fighter, has a shit-hot defence. He throws & his hands are back almost immediately, his chin's buried in his chest & he keeps himself from squaring up really well.

Great defensive little dudes:

Ivan Calderon (no, no he couldn't punch) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_ny8m7auok

Ricardo Lopez (who definitely could punch, many one-punch KOs for you if you care to dig with him) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgLW2PK2cuI

Pongsaklek Wonjongkam was not a concussive puncher nor a flashy dude but he had a rock-solid southpaw ring mechanic thing going on: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqVlRkatMBU

PS: The Takayama-Rodriguez fight, despite it being for a couple belts, is like the also-ran prize of the lower weight classes. The divisions have been literally gutted by Gonzalez in his rise through the weights (he'd beaten both of them already). Neither Takayama nor Rodriguez are ever gonna be more than solid titlists, they're not going to have a long reign no matter how soft their division is, but as the fight was the same night as a Haymon-promoted (I'm so sorry, managed, managed) card of mismatches on Showtime it got a shitload of coverage from boxing fans because it featured two dudes trying to hit each other & wasn't a televised execution.

[Datsue]

Another pair of fighters who cannot punch, Brian Viloria vs Hernan Marquez: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9EyX4aI5_w

I'd ignore the one-punch knockdown that basically finishes it, it might disabuse you of some notions.

[Boxing Prospect]

There is a certain Mr Raymi who can apparently punch >_>

Sorry had to get that in before I really got started. There are some major punchers down there, Gonzalez, Segura, Inoue, think we'll find that Tanaka has a bang on him over the coming years, Srisaket (@115 I'll admit), Yamanaka (if you go as high as 118), Novoa also appears to have some real spite right now.

Your right, on the whole they arent taking each other out with one shot. But how many times do fighters in the top 5 of ANY division take out someone else in the top 5? Heck how often do top 5 fighters in other divisions clash?

It's all well and good being excited about Deontay Wilder wiping out scrubs quickly but for me I'd rather see top guys get it on.

If you want a knockdown filled fight from this year Koki Eto vs Ardin Diale saw two guys knock each other down and literally beat the snot no it of each other. Their power might not have been huge but for me the action is the key.

If you take out Wlad, Wilder, Stevenson, Beterbiev, Kovalev, Golovkin, Matthysse, Uchiyama, Walters then the sport isn't actually left with many genuinely heavy handed fighters anyway, and we've seen how some of those guys struggle when they've not been able to blow opponents away (Stevenson vs Fonfara, Matthysse vs Molina).

I do understand your point though I'd always prefer to see top guys fighting each other is all action fights than have the the ducking, diving and political mischief we get at the higher weights.

[dominik]

there are plenty of good defensive small fighters but you are right that they are often take more risks and throw more combinations.

that is mostly for two reasons:

1. while there are hard punching small fighters generally still there is less of a chance of one punch deciding it because smaller guys tend to have less power than bigger guys. of course they also have less chin but generally in higher classes there are more one punch KOs

2. stamina: there are very well conditioned heavies and light heavies but still usually lighter guys have better stamina. even if you are trained very well a 200 pound person will need to get blood and oxygen into more muscle mass. there is a reason why top endurance athletes usually weigh less than 150 pounds, there are no 180 pounds guys who can run a marathon under 2:10 hours. because of that taller guys need to pace themselves more.

[Lackeos]

The original post reminds me of Ali Raymi, who just throws 200 body punches per round and doesn't protect his head at all, because even if he gets hit in the head several times, who cares? Actual zero power both coming and going. At higher weights, you would get KTFO'd if you used your face as your defense like that.

[giacomino]

Can't think of a heavyweight title fight in the last 15 years I'd rather watch than almost any title fight 115 lbs and below. Superb, well-conditioned athletes who can throw punches in bunches for 12 rounds. I know there are a lot of folks on this site who mostly get boners over heavyweights, but I don't see it

[littlepug]

there are plenty of good defensive small fighters but you are right that they are often take more risks and throw more combinations.

that is mostly for two reasons:

1. while there are hard punching small fighters generally still there is less of a chance of one punch deciding it because smaller guys tend to have less power than bigger guys. of course they also have less chin but generally in higher classes there are more one punch KOs

2. stamina: there are very well conditioned heavies and light heavies but still usually lighter guys have better stamina. even if you are trained very well a 200 pound person will need to get blood and oxygen into more muscle mass. there is a reason why top endurance athletes usually weigh less than 150 pounds, there are no 180 pounds guys who can run a marathon under 2:10 hours. because of that taller guys need to pace themselves more.

Have less chin ? how does that work ?

[littlepug]

The original post reminds me of Ali Raymi, who just throws 200 body punches per round and doesn't protect his head at all, because even if he gets hit in the head several times, who cares? Actual zero power both coming and going. At higher weights, you would get KTFO'd if you used your face as your defense like that.

Can't really bring raymi into it as its obviously not real

[cjdragon]

Hey guys, this is only like my second post :)
I've always looked up records on BR but finally decided to officially join.

Anyway, yeah I sometimes have a hard time following the very low weights...below bantamweight I'd say.
However that's based on my watching mostly mediocre and "pretty good" matches in the lower divisions scattered over the years.
Finally though, I started watching some of the great matches online, and I've gained a lot of respect for them...especially for the little heavy hitters :)

[giacomino]

Hey guys, this is only like my second post :)
I've always looked up records on BR but finally decided to officially join.

Anyway, yeah I sometimes have a hard time following the very low weights...below bantamweight I'd say.
However that's based on my watching mostly mediocre and "pretty good" matches in the lower divisions scattered over the years.
Finally though, I started watching some of the great matches online, and I've gained a lot of respect for them...especially for the little heavy hitters :)

Welcome. Good to see you've been able to weed through the 250 Golovkin is God, Ward is feces posts. Boxing better below 147 lbs, IMO

[cjdragon]

Thanks for the welcome Giacomino, I appreciate that :)

[davie]

Few interesting point there, I'll have a look at some of the names mentioned. So far the 2 listed above are my first foray into the really light wieghts.

Until recently i'd seen very little below feather weight and even then, it's only been because of UK fighters like Frampton, Quigg & Galahd at S bantam and Yafai and Butler down at S fly that i've taken an interest. (we have no-one fighting under flyweight over here)

I suppose some of the names there hold a fair number of stoppages, disproving the lack of KO power theory

Anyway, I'll persevere with it, i did enjoy the action, but i'll look forward to hopefully seeing a few more guys on the seat of their pants

[giacomino]

Few interesting point there, I'll have a look at some of the names mentioned. So far the 2 listed above are my first foray into the really light wieghts.

Until recently i'd seen very little below feather weight and even then, it's only been because of UK fighters like Frampton, Quigg & Galahd at S bantam and Yafai and Butler down at S fly that i've taken an interest. (we have no-one fighting under flyweight over here)

I suppose some of the names there hold a fair number of stoppages, disproving the lack of KO power theory

Anyway, I'll persevere with it, i did enjoy the action, but i'll look forward to hopefully seeing a few more guys on the seat of their pants

Glad that you are giving it a try. I began watching the lighter weights in the 1970s and 1980s and became big fan of Wilfredo Gomez, Carlos Zarate, Ruben Olivares, Santis Laciar, Jung Koo Chang, Jeff Fenech, Orlando Canizales and a host of other little big men, most of whom could pop (and all available on youtube)

[davie]

Glad that you are giving it a try. I began watching the lighter weights in the 1970s and 1980s and became big fan of Wilfredo Gomez, Carlos Zarate, Ruben Olivares, Santis Laciar, Jung Koo Chang, Jeff Fenech, Orlando Canizales and a host of other little big men, most of whom could pop (and all available on youtube)

To be fair, it's only the really light weights I've missed.
When I very first got into boxing, Naz was making big noises in the featherweights, after that I got into Barrera/Morales etc
I've watched guys as low as bantam, because they get coverage and now the UK has some exciting fighters down there to get into

but from super flyweight down, there's been no one in the UK or america to give it the coverage over the years, so unless you purposely go looking for it, you just don't get to see these weight divisions.

I've seen people knocking the lack of media coverage for these divisions but if all the top fighters in a division come from South America, Asia and Africa, it's hardly surprising that they don't get coverage in Europe and North america.

[pound per pound]

Reading some comments yesterday from Boxing prospect about entertaining fights from the lower weight divisions, I thought I'd given them a watch.

started with Roman Gonzalez v Akira Yaegashi at Flywieght and it was a very good fight but there was one little thing that niggled me,
then watched Francisco Rodriguez Jr vs Katsunari Takuyama at minimum weight and that little thing became even more obvious.

These fights are good for action, plenty of punches thrown, lots of movement etc
but it all loses something when you think about why they are throwing so many punches....
It's because they can get away with it.

Heavier weight classes have to think a lot more about whats coming back at them. and although that may, at times, result in less action, there is an art to it.
particularly up at the top end where taking one punch can end the fight.
A jab is often thrown to deter an opponent from throwing back, a combination is often thrown to deter your opponent from trying to counter single shot, these little guys can quite happily throw punches in 6s and 7s, while their opponent throws back at the exact same time with little effect. As entertaining as that is, it certainly takes something away from the defensive aspect of the fight game for me.

I wont say I didn't enjoy these fights but it definitely wasn't the same, it didn't feel like it had the same drama, particularly the minimum wieght fight, the only time you felt there might be a stoppage was when the 2 of them got really tired and even then, their feather fisted punches were weakened further through fatigue. you couldn't imagine for a second one of them would score a KO in the first 6 rounds
i'd be interested at boxing prospects thought on this, as someone who promotes these lower weighht classes on here or from anyone else who enjoys the lighter divisions.

Lower weight boxing can be easy to predict. The faster more skilled fighter is going to win more often than not.

But things are different at heavyweight as the styles, and sizes of the fighters can be very different. Durability, and heart are requirements are different for heavyweights. Some of these guys are monsters. Smaller fighters just don’t imitate or hurt each other as easily.

The incoming is extremely different. I have a personal anecdote. I once held a heavyweight bag for a pro welterweight. My chest was tight on the bag, thumbs out of the way to avoid injury. While I could feel the blows the bag was easy enough to hold. Then I did the same for heavyweight who wasn’t as skilled. Not only was the grip of the bag difficult, you could feel the effect of the blows through the bag. I’m over 6 feet tall and 220 pounds, and some of those jolts require you to tightened up your stomach to prepare for the impact. I was often moved backward. I could not just stand there with my feet planted as I did with the Welterweight. The level of impact of the punch was three times as great. After a while I didn't want to hold the bag. I could only image the difference of a body shot crashing into my rib cage.

In the gym little guys will spar hard, but heavies seldom do the same.