Boxing Shows with poor quality & all mismatches

[Dennis]

Promoters who put on shows with poor quality bouts that are clearly mismatches hurt the sport of boxing. If a show has 8-10 bouts, at least a couple of them need to be somewhat competitive. I see shows where the main event is a guy with a great record facing a guy with a terrible losing record and that is the best bout on the whole card. That is reprehensible.

I don't know the promoters of the show and I have never worked with the Texas Commission but the upcoming show tomorrow night in Humble, TX is a prime example of the above but is just one of many that occurs throughout the United States each year. This problem isn't just happening in the U.S. as I see results of shows worldwide that are very similar.

Here is the line-up per BoxRec for the tomorrow night's show. How many fans can they expect to pay any money to see this show? As a boxing fan, I want to know how they found so many guys with 0 wins and multiple losses to fight on one show? It must be a record to only have one B-side fighter with a win on his record.

Saturday 18 October 2014
Humble Civic Center, Humble, Texas, USA
promoters: Napoleon Gonzalez (South Coast Promotions) / John Bryant

light middleweight Alfonso Lopez 22(17)-3-0 SC Sean Rawley Wilson 5(1)-14(9)-1 NC ? 8
light heavyweight William Johnson 10(3)-38(17)-2 SC Keyon Thomas 0-6(3)-0 NC ? 6
lightweight Marshall Sanchez 1-0-0 SC Myron Hill 0-5(5)-0 NC ? 4
light welterweight Luis Alberto Lopez 4(1)-0-0 SC Rahkeam Parker 0-1-0 NC ? 4
light welterweight Manuel Gonzalez 2(1)-0-0 SC Marcus Wilson 0-2(2)-0 NC ? 4
light welterweight Adrian Santoyo 2(2)-0-0 SC Anthony Woods 0-12(6)-0 NC ? 4
Cruz Valaivia debut SC Daniel Sanchez 0-11(6)-0 NC ? 4
Nathaniel Sanchez 3(2)-0-0 SC Tyrone Walls debut NC ? 4
lightweight Julio Sanchez debut SC Mason Wicket 0-7(2)-0 NC ? 4
light welterweight Josheph Rivera debut SC Damian Brown 0-2(2)-0 NC ? 4

[world ranked]

There's more to making fight especially to small local cards. Those types of cards most people who going to see a fight is fans
of a fighter on the card. Money is another to finding quality opponents. There not cheap when you include travel and other stuff for
a card that might not even have enough ticket sales to cover the payment of all the fighters. Denis I've seen you post here you know how
difficult it is to put card together and get opponents.

[Dennis]

There's more to making fight especially to small local cards. Those types of cards most people who going to see a fight is fans
of a fighter on the card. Money is another to finding quality opponents. There not cheap when you include travel and other stuff for
a card that might not even have enough ticket sales to cover the payment of all the fighters. Denis I've seen you post here you know how
difficult it is to put card together and get opponents.

I'm not saying all 10 bouts have to be evenly matched but maybe one or two. How about a couple of 3-0 vs 2-1 or even 1-1 type bouts? Heck for this show they could improve it by having 3-0 vs 1-2, 1-5, even 1-10. Just get a couple of opponents who have won a fight or two in their careers.

[Boxing Prospect]

There's more to making fight especially to small local cards. Those types of cards most people who going to see a fight is fans
of a fighter on the card. Money is another to finding quality opponents. There not cheap when you include travel and other stuff for
a card that might not even have enough ticket sales to cover the payment of all the fighters. Denis I've seen you post here you know how
difficult it is to put card together and get opponents.

I'm not saying all 10 bouts have to be evenly matched but maybe one or two. How about a couple of 3-0 vs 2-1 or even 1-1 type bouts? Heck for this show they could improve it by having 3-0 vs 1-2, 1-5, even 1-10. Just get a couple of opponents who have won a fight or two in their careers.

Those 3-0 vs 1-2 type of bouts are some of the best I've seen recently. There was a bout in Japan recently that was something like a 1-2 guys vs a 3-5 guy and that bout was VERY good.

On November 2nd there is a show in Tokyo that's a very interesting card.

Sadly the mismatches youve highlighted are a giant problem and a genuine blight on our great sport :/

[BAD INTENTIONS]

Here ye! Here ye! Come watch four hours of one-sided beat downs!

[ReggieDiggs]

Yea I'm against these types of fights across the board. I think a pro fight should have a certain expectation of competitiveness. What that threshold is is debatable, but its certainly not a red corner being occupied by a winning record fighter all night & a blue corner being occupied by a losing record fighter all night which I myself have seen live on a few occasions & seen numerous times in the boxrec schedule. I'd rather see less pro fights being had than so many massacres. A record would actually hold meaning in that type of boxing atmosphere instead of now where a good record could mean youre a talent or just fighting bs guy after bs guy.

[HomicideHenry]

I guess it all comes down to your personal definition of what a pro is. There are far too many 'incomplete' pros out there. That's why I will argue to my dying day, that boxing truly needs some sort of middle ground. What of guys like myself? Are we just doomed to be fed to wolves, and never get the chance to really face off against guys of our own level? Or would some argue, we dont belong at all? Problem is definitions and standards set by commissions and federal laws--- a 'contest' is only true if sanctioned by a commission, unless its mutually agreed by both parties to compete in a contest without a decision being rendered regardless what happens (exhibition). What is it to a promoter, or to the commission or the feds for that matter, if someone is making their debut against another debuter, and one has no amateur record while the other one does? The feds and commissions and promoters, mainly look at boxing as a numbers game on paper--- and nothing else. They take the human element out of boxing, by not being responsible. It's easier to put under contract a 'proven' commodity and then fed that commodity a bunch of strategically placed bums, or has beens, or never wases, and guys who are incomplete or lacking in some area.

That's why I personally want to see one of two things happen in America especially:

#1- Either a semi-pro division be developed and/or exhibition matches start becoming a norm in boxing; that way people can compete, make money, not effect their amateur or pro status, keep their name out there, and have a chance to develop their skills and gain extra experience.

#2- Either the ABC mandate new licenses; type A, B, C, D and F licenses, where third tiers and lower journeymen fit into the F and D licenses, mid to upper level journeymen receice a C license, high level journeymen and fringe contenders recieve a B license, and the top 10 in any division receive an A license--- and only F level can compete against F level, B level can only face B level, etc. which makes for competitive fights all the way around.

Now, in the UK and Australia and other nations, the semi-pro/exhibition boxing is relatively well known and respect for what it is--- and there are alot of guys in it who are good at doing it, even though they may not be good enough to be solid professionals, though the majority in it are low-level pros or amateurs or hardmen types. In America, this concept pretty much died following the 1950s and 1960s when travelling Athletic Shows became extinct. I think it ought to make its return--- and not be under the thumb of USA Boxing or the feds, but rather on a state by state basis via commission.

Maybe I am a dreamer, and such reforms will never take place--- but I think for boxing to survive, the day and age of manufactured fighters is going to have to come to an end, considering in the world of mma it is staging nothing but competitive fights time in and time out. The UFC in particular has it mandated that you have to fight the #1 ranked guy or you will be stripped of your title, or even be flat out fired. In boxing, its "discouraged" to skip mandatories or not take fights in your class--- but there is no real punishment behind doing so.

[Puncher7]

what makes you believe you should be classified (by your definition) as "semi-pro" when you never even had an amateur fight?

[Dennis]

We will see from the results that it was a bad show. Lots of TKO/KO wins.

[dominik]

what makes you believe you should be classified (by your definition) as "semi-pro" when you never even had an amateur fight?

many pros never had amateur fights, especially in latin america/mexico.

[ReggieDiggs]

#2- Either the ABC mandate new licenses; type A, B, C, D and F licenses, where third tiers and lower journeymen fit into the F and D licenses, mid to upper level journeymen receice a C license, high level journeymen and fringe contenders recieve a B license, and the top 10 in any division receive an A license--- and only F level can compete against F level, B level can only face B level, etc. which makes for competitive fights all the way around.

This is basically like an idea I lifted from how Sumo participants are moved up the rankings. I think this would conform well with boxing & allow for the most competitive fights & the cream rising to the top sooner & fans seeing the best fight the best consistently.

Here's a breakdown of the Sumo divisions. This could easily be duplicated in boxing & a certain amount of wins in a division or winning a tournament in the lower divisions could be used to qualify a boxer for the next division.

Jonokuchi (40-90 wrestlers)
Jonokuchi (序ノ口 or 序の口) is the lowest division.

Jonidan (200-250 wrestlers)
Jonidan (序二段) is the fifth highest division.

Sandanme (200 wrestlers)
Sandanme (三段目) is the fourth highest division.

Makushita (120 wrestlers)
Makushita (幕下) is the third highest division.

Jūryō (28 wrestlers)
Jūryō (十両), is the second highest division, and is fixed at 28 wrestlers.

Makuuchi (42 wrestlers)
Makuuchi (幕内), or makunouchi (幕の内), is the top division. It is fixed at 42 wrestlers who are ranked according to their ability, as defined by their performance in previous tournaments. At the top of the division are the "titleholders", or "champions" called the san'yaku comprising yokozuna, ōzeki, sekiwake and komusubi. There are typically 8-12 wrestlers in these ranks with the remainder, called maegashira, ranked in numerical order from 1 downwards.

[Dennis]

Just like I suspected, complete mismatches. Not one bout went to a decision. Out of 8 bouts only two went beyond the first round.

Saturday 18 October 2014
Humble Civic Center, Humble, Texas, USA
commission: Texas Dept. of Licensing and Regulation
inspectors: Noe Pena / Gus Calderon
promoters: Napoleon Gonzalez (South Coast Promotions) / John Bryant
doctors: Randolph Taylor / Michael Haas

light middleweight Alfonso Lopez 175 22(17)-3-0 W Sean Rawley Wilson 174 5(1)-14(9)-1 TKO 1 8
time: 2:00 | referee: Gary Simons

Luis Alberto Lopez 119¼ 4(1)-0-0 W Myron Hill 124¾ 0-5(5)-0 TKO 2 4
time: 2:42 | referee: Gary Simons

light welterweight Manuel Gonzalez 137¼ 2(1)-0-0 W Marcus Wilson 136¾ 0-2(2)-0 TKO 1 4
time: 1:06 | referee: Gary Simons

welterweight Adrian Santoyo 147¼ 2(2)-0-0 W Anthony Woods 143½ 0-12(6)-0 TKO 1 4
time: 1:14 | referee: Ronnie Ralston

lightweight Cruz Valaivia 133¼ debut W Daniel Sanchez 135¼ 0-11(6)-0 TKO 1 4
time: 1:58 | referee: Gary Simons

welterweight Nathaniel Sanchez 139¾ 3(2)-0-0 W Tyrone Walls 143¼ debut KO 1 4
time: 1:19 | referee: Ronnie Ralston

Julio Sanchez 137¼ debut W Mason Wicket 141¾ 0-7(2)-0 TKO 3 4
time: 1:55 | referee: Ronnie Ralston

Josheph Rivera 138½ debut W Damian Brown 142½ 0-2(2)-0 TKO 1 4

[pugilisticprofessor]

Very similar to this card.

http://boxrec.com/show_display.php?show_id=688200

[jujigatame]

I agree with the sentiment of this thread, but I find it ironic that it comes from a guy who frequently uses this board to promote his son's fights, almost 100% of which have been total mismatches.

[lefty]

There's more to making fight especially to small local cards. Those types of cards most people who going to see a fight is fans
of a fighter on the card. Money is another to finding quality opponents. There not cheap when you include travel and other stuff for
a card that might not even have enough ticket sales to cover the payment of all the fighters. Denis I've seen you post here you know how
difficult it is to put card together and get opponents.

I'm not saying all 10 bouts have to be evenly matched but maybe one or two. How about a couple of 3-0 vs 2-1 or even 1-1 type bouts? Heck for this show they could improve it by having 3-0 vs 1-2, 1-5, even 1-10. Just get a couple of opponents who have won a fight or two in their careers.

Those 3-0 vs 1-2 type of bouts are some of the best I've seen recently. There was a bout in Japan recently that was something like a 1-2 guys vs a 3-5 guy and that bout was VERY good.

On November 2nd there is a show in Tokyo that's a very interesting card.

Sadly the mismatches youve highlighted are a giant problem and a genuine blight on our great sport :/

1-2 and a guy that is 3-5 arent an issue because im guessing they were evenly matched. Like you say its only when there's a big gulf in class that it becomes crap to watch.

[tiny_acres]

#2- Either the ABC mandate new licenses; type A, B, C, D and F licenses, where third tiers and lower journeymen fit into the F and D licenses, mid to upper level journeymen receice a C license, high level journeymen and fringe contenders recieve a B license, and the top 10 in any division receive an A license--- and only F level can compete against F level, B level can only face B level, etc. which makes for competitive fights all the way around.

This is basically like an idea I lifted from how Sumo participants are moved up the rankings. I think this would conform well with boxing & allow for the most competitive fights & the cream rising to the top sooner & fans seeing the best fight the best consistently.

Here's a breakdown of the Sumo divisions. This could easily be duplicated in boxing & a certain amount of wins in a division or winning a tournament in the lower divisions could be used to qualify a boxer for the next division.

Jonokuchi (40-90 wrestlers)
Jonokuchi (序ノ口 or 序の口) is the lowest division.

Jonidan (200-250 wrestlers)
Jonidan (序二段) is the fifth highest division.

Sandanme (200 wrestlers)
Sandanme (三段目) is the fourth highest division.

Makushita (120 wrestlers)
Makushita (幕下) is the third highest division.

Jūryō (28 wrestlers)
Jūryō (十両), is the second highest division, and is fixed at 28 wrestlers.

Makuuchi (42 wrestlers)
Makuuchi (幕内), or makunouchi (幕の内), is the top division. It is fixed at 42 wrestlers who are ranked according to their ability, as defined by their performance in previous tournaments. At the top of the division are the "titleholders", or "champions" called the san'yaku comprising yokozuna, ōzeki, sekiwake and komusubi. There are typically 8-12 wrestlers in these ranks with the remainder, called maegashira, ranked in numerical order from 1 downwards.

Reggie I agree Sumo has the best system.Do you follow it?I love it but hard to find any tv coverage.I only see clips from on line.

[ReggieDiggs]

Reggie I agree Sumo has the best system.Do you follow it?I love it but hard to find any tv coverage.I only see clips from on line.

Nah I have had trouble keeping up with it forever @ this point. I catch up with results every 6 months or so on some random night where I can't sleep usually lol (this new Mongolian kid, Ichinojo, seems like maybe the next Yokozuna unless his first event was a fluke, curious to see what he does in November). I used to love watching those ESPN 3am basho highlight shows. My bucket list includes a trip to Japan to watch an event.

[Dennis]

Very similar to this card.

http://boxrec.com/show_display.php?show_id=688200

That show had an evenly matched bout that ended in a majority draw. The other bouts had opponents with some wins. Jordan's opponent had a winning record.

[Dennis]

I agree with the sentiment of this thread, but I find it ironic that it comes from a guy who frequently uses this board to promote his son's fights, almost 100% of which have been total mismatches.

Jordan never fought a guy who didn't have a win except an 0-1 guy in his 2nd fight and a debut guy in his 3rd fight. His last 9 opponents all had winning records.

[jujigatame]

I agree with the sentiment of this thread, but I find it ironic that it comes from a guy who frequently uses this board to promote his son's fights, almost 100% of which have been total mismatches.

Jordan never fought a guy who didn't have a win except an 0-1 guy in his 2nd fight and a debut guy in his 3rd fight. His last 9 opponents all had winning records.

As someone who works in the business you of all people shouldn't be pitching this line that a winning record means something. Corn and McCreary in particular were awful mismatches and anyone with half a brain knew they weren't going more than a few rounds with Jordan.

[pugilisticprofessor]

Very similar to this card.

http://boxrec.com/show_display.php?show_id=688200

That show had an evenly matched bout that ended in a majority draw. The other bouts had opponents with some wins. Jordan's opponent had a winning record.

Jordan's opponent was 0-14-1 in his last 15 and has not had a win in 8 years.

[Dennis]

Very similar to this card.

http://boxrec.com/show_display.php?show_id=688200

That show had an evenly matched bout that ended in a majority draw. The other bouts had opponents with some wins. Jordan's opponent had a winning record.

Jordan's opponent was 0-14-1 in his last 15 and has not had a win in 8 years.

Corn was a last minute substitute when 25 other guys had turned the fight down. Some accepted and then backed out days later. Corn was a stay busy opponent but Jordan stopped him quicker than anyone else in his career.

In regard to the show, it had a bout that ended in a majority decision in a hotly contested bout and two bouts that were stopped in the 2nd round plus a 3 round exhibition that went the distance. For a small show, it was much better than the show in Humble that had a total of 8 bouts that went a total of 21 minutes 50 seconds. Davenport's show with 5 regular pro bouts had 33:27 of action plus a pro exhibition bout between two veterans that went the 3 round distance. If you count that then the show had 42:27 of action.

[WESTSIDE BOXING]

Records don't mean that much on the club circuit.
anyone that knows anything about the regional circuit could tell you that.

Plenty of 2-5 guys from tough regions that would crush some 5-0 built-up guys.
The 2-5 guy will hardly EVER get that chance though.

The main difference is that a promoter will HAVE TO PAY A LOT MORE MONEY for the built-up 5-0 guy to get crushed by a REAL prospect.