leonard Vs Hagler..who really won???

[wolverine1]

Round by round, here's how I have it:

Rd 1: Even
Rd 2: Leonard
Rd 3: Hagler
Rd 4: Hagler
Rd 5: Hagler
Rd 6: Leonard
Rd 7: Hagler
Rd 8: Hagler
Rd 9: Hagler
Rd 10: Leonard
Rd 11: Leonard
Rd 12: Hagler

Final score: Hagler 116; Leonard 113

[silkov]

Round by round, here's how I have it:

Rd 1: Even
Rd 2: Leonard
Rd 3: Hagler
Rd 4: Hagler
Rd 5: Hagler
Rd 6: Leonard
Rd 7: Hagler
Rd 8: Hagler
Rd 9: Hagler
Rd 10: Leonard
Rd 11: Leonard
Rd 12: Hagler

Final score: Hagler 116; Leonard 113

I don't see how you can have Hagler winning any of the first 5 rounds really!... and from what I remember it was Hagler who seemed the more tired in the 12th...

[wolverine1]

Round by round, here's how I have it:

Rd 1: Even
Rd 2: Leonard
Rd 3: Hagler
Rd 4: Hagler
Rd 5: Hagler
Rd 6: Leonard
Rd 7: Hagler
Rd 8: Hagler
Rd 9: Hagler
Rd 10: Leonard
Rd 11: Leonard
Rd 12: Hagler

Final score: Hagler 116; Leonard 113

I don't see how you can have Hagler winning any of the first 5 rounds really!... and from what I remember it was Hagler who seemed the more tired in the 12th...

Watch the fight again, and put your focus between the boxers. That way you can get a real sense of what each is doing. Don't just focus on Leonard's shoe-shine flurries.

[silkov]

Round by round, here's how I have it:

Rd 1: Even
Rd 2: Leonard
Rd 3: Hagler
Rd 4: Hagler
Rd 5: Hagler
Rd 6: Leonard
Rd 7: Hagler
Rd 8: Hagler
Rd 9: Hagler
Rd 10: Leonard
Rd 11: Leonard
Rd 12: Hagler

Final score: Hagler 116; Leonard 113

I don't see how you can have Hagler winning any of the first 5 rounds really!... and from what I remember it was Hagler who seemed the more tired in the 12th...

Watch the fight again, and put your focus between the boxers. That way you can get a real sense of what each is doing. Don't just focus on Leonard's shoe-shine flurries.

Well I think you need to rewatch the fight really, ...notice that Leonard was blocking most of Haglers punches while Hagler was just walking through Leonards punches and not blocking most of them, so these were scoring punches, rather than 'shoe shine flurries!'... 8)

[wolverine1]

I don't see how you can have Hagler winning any of the first 5 rounds really!... and from what I remember it was Hagler who seemed the more tired in the 12th...

Watch the fight again, and put your focus between the boxers. That way you can get a real sense of what each is doing. Don't just focus on Leonard's shoe-shine flurries.

Well I think you need to rewatch the fight really, ...notice that Leonard was blocking most of Haglers punches while Hagler was just walking through Leonards punches and not blocking most of them, so these were scoring punches, rather than 'shoe shine flurries!'... 8)

I think YOU need to rewatch the fight and score it fairly and get off the Leonard bandwagon.

[Syntax Error]

I've just checked the history books & apparently Sugar Ray Leonard won the fight!

[Ambling Alp]

Round by round, here's how I have it:

Rd 1: Even
Rd 2: Leonard
Rd 3: Hagler
Rd 4: Hagler
Rd 5: Hagler
Rd 6: Leonard
Rd 7: Hagler
Rd 8: Hagler
Rd 9: Hagler
Rd 10: Leonard
Rd 11: Leonard
Rd 12: Hagler


Final score: Hagler 116; Leonard 113

Wow.

In round one one, Hagler hardly even threw any punches at all. Certainly Leonards round.
In round 3, Hagler started off ok, but then Leonard was in control for most of the round. He landed the clean punches.
In round 4, Leonard again easily won the round with clean punches. Hagler did very little.
These aren't difficult rounds to score. I keep reading about "shoeshine punches" from Leonard, but some of these were solid. And where was Hagler's body attack or power punches?
Leonard got off to much better fight in the early rounds. for whatever reason, Hagler just wasn't ready in the first four rounds. Leonard was defintely up 40-36 at this point. After that the fight is much more competitive, but Hagler was just too far behind to catch up.

[Syntax Error]

Round by round, here's how I have it:

Rd 1: Even
Rd 2: Leonard
Rd 3: Hagler
Rd 4: Hagler
Rd 5: Hagler
Rd 6: Leonard
Rd 7: Hagler
Rd 8: Hagler
Rd 9: Hagler
Rd 10: Leonard
Rd 11: Leonard
Rd 12: Hagler


Final score: Hagler 116; Leonard 113

Wow.

In round one one, Hagler hardly even threw any punches at all. Certainly Leonards round.
In round 3, Hagler started off ok, but then Leonard was in control for most of the round. He landed the clean punches.
In round 4, Leonard again easily won the round with clean punches. Hagler did very little.
These aren't difficult rounds to score. I keep reading about "shoeshine punches" from Leonard, but some of these were solid. And where was Hagler's body attack or power punches?
Leonard got off to much better fight in the early rounds. for whatever reason, Hagler just wasn't ready in the first four rounds. Leonard was defintely up 40-36 at this point. After that the fight is much more competitive, but Hagler was just too far behind to catch up.

Hagler's ego cost him the 1st 4 rounds.

Rather than fight out of his traditional southpaw stance & throw some leather, he seemed more obsessed with insulting SRL & switching to orthdox, as if to prove some crazy point.

His ego told him that he'd beat the cocky, ring rusty welterweight.

SRL shocked him with how much he had left & how strong he was at middleweight.

[silkov]

Watch the fight again, and put your focus between the boxers. That way you can get a real sense of what each is doing. Don't just focus on Leonard's shoe-shine flurries.

Well I think you need to rewatch the fight really, ...notice that Leonard was blocking most of Haglers punches while Hagler was just walking through Leonards punches and not blocking most of them, so these were scoring punches, rather than 'shoe shine flurries!'... 8)

I think YOU need to rewatch the fight and score it fairly and get off the Leonard bandwagon.

If you studied my posts you'd see that I actually prefer Hagler as the man and fighter but I don't allow that to prejudice my view of the fight and who I think won...

[wolverine1]

My scores stands as they are; and I did score it objectively. And for those who make noise about Leonard moving "up", look at both of them in the ring. Leonard is just as big as Hagler is.

And just like the commentators that night, posters on here fail to acknowledge the work Hagler did round after round. Case in point, did anyone, besides me, see that monster left hook to Ray's right under-arm that Hagler landed in round 10, but went UNMENTIONED by the commenatators? They were way too focused on Ray, and ANY little thing he did.

[Ambling Alp]

My scores stands as they are; and I did score it objectively.
I'm sure you did.

And for those who make noise about Leonard moving "up", look at both of them in the ring. Leonard is just as big as Hagler is.
Yes Leonard is the about the same size in the fight, that's not the point. This was the first time he had carried the weight and the first time he faced an opponent at this weight, and his opponent was Marvin Hagler and he was coming off a long layoff and he won. That is quite an achievement.

And just like the commentators that night, posters on here fail to acknowledge the work Hagler did round after round.
Except for the first four rounds when Hagler did almost nothing.
Case in point, did anyone, besides me, see that monster left hook to Ray's right under-arm that Hagler landed in round 10, but went UNMENTIONED by the commenatators? They were way too focused on Ray, and ANY little thing he did.

Apparently they weren't as "objective" as you.
Good thing that you noticed the "monster left hook" that Hagler landed and that Leonard's punches were"shoeshine punches" and scored the fight objectively.

[jyuza]

Hagler won the war but lost the fight. He took the pace, made the cleaner hits while Leonard ran away.
Hagler fought like the challenger when he was the champion and well past his prime. Leonard was out of gas after the 11 round (i wonder what he would have been if the fight was @ 15rnd....)

Have this fight 3 years earlier, Hagler would have won by unanimous decision.

[wolverine1]

Hagler won the war but lost the fight. He took the pace, made the cleaner hits while Leonard ran away.
Hagler fought like the challenger when he was the champion and well past his prime. Leonard was out of gas after the 11 round (i wonder what he would have been if the fight was @ 15rnd....)

Have this fight 3 years earlier, Hagler would have won by unanimous decision.

He did in my book.

[dr_devious]

I thought Marvin Hagler won on points............the decision was highway robbery.

[KOJOE90]

I thought Marvin Hagler won, but it was a very close fight and an argument can be made for either fighter.

[ferroz]

I think in fights like this fighters like Hagler should show that he won the rounds. I know that sounds a bit simplistic but it seems that with the body work (which in my opinion was greatly overlooked) made me think that he was just expecting to break down Leonard and KO him, not saying that he was relying on a KO but maybe that frame of mind made him think that he could afford to lose some rounds.

[wolverine1]

Ferroz, I'm sure he was going to Ray's body to try and slow him down. When I first saw this bout when it happened, I had Hagler up by two rounds. In my more recent scoring, at a poster's request, I had Hagler up by 3 points.

I felt I did score it objectively. I looked closely at both their work, and sought to see how some Leonard fans (and judges), had him winning the first 4 rounds. Was Leonard moving more?...yes. Did he "seem" more active?...yes. Did Hagler land the more solid punches?...yes.

Look at the DLH/Trinidad match. A lot of fans had DLH winning the first 5 rounds. I didn't see it that way either. In a way, the DLH/Tito bout is remarkably similar to the Leonard/Hagler bout, only with different outcomes.

[ferroz]

Ferroz, I'm sure he was going to Ray's body to try and slow him down. When I first saw this bout when it happened, I had Hagler up by two rounds. In my more recent scoring, at a poster's request, I had Hagler up by 3 points.

I felt I did score it objectively. I looked closely at both their work, and sought to see how some Leonard fans (and judges), had him winning the first 4 rounds. Was Leonard moving more?...yes. Did he "seem" more active?...yes. Did Hagler land the more solid punches?...yes.

Look at the DLH/Trinidad match. A lot of fans had DLH winning the first 5 rounds. I didn't see it that way either. In a way, the DLH/Tito bout is remarkably similar to the Leonard/Hagler bout, only with different outcomes.

The Forrest- Mayorga 2 fight comes to mind as well for me.

[thunderfromdownunder]

i have this fight on tape, i thought sugar ray won quite comftably.
after the fight hagler was all like "he knows i beat him...." no way, ray whopped him.
sure hagler hit sugar good a few times, but it was rays speed that allowed him to hit hagler more.

btw, how good if sugar rays little muhammad ali like combo in that fight

[Seamus]

As I said before, since Leonard was never even close to being hurt in the fight, I guess that means Hagler was throwing soft punches too.

[marchegiano007]

In mexico after the fight and even the mexican comentators, said that this fight was fixed hagler never put power on his punches look at the tape again. He only try to connect it but without any power behind, at least in mexico that was the impression..

[wolverine1]

In mexico after the fight and even the mexican comentators, said that this fight was fixed hagler never put power on his punches look at the tape again. He only try to connect it but without any power behind, at least in mexico that was the impression..

I don't see why or how Hagler would throw any fight he's been in.

[silkov]

In mexico after the fight and even the mexican comentators, said that this fight was fixed hagler never put power on his punches look at the tape again. He only try to connect it but without any power behind, at least in mexico that was the impression..

I agree that there was little snap in Haglers punches but this was probably due to Hagler being 'shot' rather than there being a fix. No way would Hagler ever be involved in a fix. If there had been a second and third fight then you could see a reason for something like that but what would Hagler gain by throwing the title away?. I think it was age, inactivity, and ring wars catching up with Hagler, ...which is one of the reasons why he never fought again because inside I think he knew himself that he didn't have it anymore.... after all had he come back there could have been rematches with Hearns, Duran even, and that may have enticed Leonard to give Hagler a rematch, but as it was Hagler knew he didn't have it no more so quit... which is probably actually the wisest move he could have done...

[wolverine1]

Hagler did seek a rematch and Leonard wouldn't do it in a timely fashion. Kinda funny that Leonard would rematch Duran quickly, but not give the same consideration to Hagler. That's because Leonard knew he got a gift from 2 of the judges, and wouldn't have been so lucky the next time. Hagler got robbed.