Sugar Ray Robinson Vs. Willie Pep

KALOOCBOY · Post by **KALOOCBOY** » 01 Mar 2002, 01:38

I was listening to a local radio talk show and a trivia question was asked if Sugar Ray Robinson and Willie Pep ever fought. This guy had called in and said they had fought in an exhibition match, and that Robinson fought under another name, but everybody knew it was him. Does anyone have any information on this, Who won? What weight were they? I am pretty sure they would have been pretty far apart, and does anybody know what names or name Robinson may have fought under?

Brooklyn's Buddy · Post by **Brooklyn's Buddy** » 01 Mar 2002, 11:43

According to the book Willie Pep Remembers Friday's Heroes, Pep And Robinson fought as amateurs in 1938, with Robinson winning by decision.Pep states that he weighed about 105 and was the state flyweight champ. He states that Robinson was about 128 pounds and the Golden Gloves featherweight Champion.Pep goes on to say that amateurs fought for money in Connecticut and that he received eight dollars for the fight out of which his manager took seven. I bought this book from http://www.boxingstuff.com

Brooklyn's Buddy · Post by **Brooklyn's Buddy** » 01 Mar 2002, 11:47

I left out a detail from Pep's book that you inquired about: Robinson fought under the name Ray Roberts in his decision win over Pep.

delisa · Post by **delisa** » 01 Mar 2002, 15:28

Well -- Willie was not quite accurrate --

Pep lost a 3-round decision to Robinson in the NY Golden Gloves, Sub-novice, 118-lbs in I am pretty sure, Jan 1938.

Both were within a pound or so of each other in weight, not the huge differnece Pep described.

Robinson did not even win the gloves that year; after beating Pep he beat Bobby Ruffin and Tom Polizzi, but lost on Feb 16 to Pasquale Pesca

Brooklyn's Buddy · Post by **Brooklyn's Buddy** » 01 Mar 2002, 17:10

Is it possible that Pep And Robinson fought more than once as amateurs? Pep writes that the bout took place in Norwich, Connecticut at the DU-WELL A.C. He goes on to say that fighters from the Salem-Crescent A.C. would come to fight boxers from Pep's club.Perhaps Pep's recollection of 1938 as the year of the Connecticut fight with Sugar Ray is the only incorrect detail in his account. Could it have been 1939? Nevertheless, Mike DeLisa's research is outstanding and I defer to it.

delisa · Post by **delisa** » 01 Mar 2002, 17:53

In looking over my notes (reproduced below) I see that I mistakenly referred to the fight as a NY GG fight -- looking again, I was wrong. It is POSSIBLE that Willie's book is correct as to the location. But he is wrong that robinson outweighed him by 20 pounds or more. Robinson was a Bantam; Willie, I am fairly certain, was a bantam also. Here are my full notes of Robinson's amateur career --

Amateur Highlights
1938
--- Arvey Lacelle New York L 3
--- Willie Pep New York W 3
118-lb. Sub-Novice, NY Golden Gloves Tourney
Jan 29 Thomas Polizzi New York, NY KO 2
Feb 4 Bobby Ruffin New York, NY W 3
Feb 16 Pasquale Pesca Queens, NY L 3

1939
126-lb. Open, NY Golden Gloves Tourney
Feb 13 Alfredo Guido New York, NY W 3
Feb 22 Frank Arcidiacono New York, NY W 3
Mar 6 Louis Valentine New York KO 3

126-lb. Open, GG Eastern Regionals
Mar 13 Armann Dascenza New York, NY KO 1
Mar 13 Edward Dowell New York, NY W 3
Mar 14 Bob Fisher New York, NY KO 1
Mar 14 Mario Centi New York, NY W 3

126-lb. Open, Chicago-NY Inter-City
Mar 29 Tony Ancona Chicago, IL W 3

1940
135-lb. Open, NY Golden Gloves Tourney
Jan 25 Woodrow Tolliver New York, NY KO 2
Feb 2 Michael Solicito New York, NY KO 2
Feb 7 William Wolfe Ridgewood, NY KO 1
Feb 14 Ballesandro Carubia Bronx, NY KO 3
Feb 19 Andrew Nonella New York, NY KO 1

135-lb. Open, GG Eastern Regionals
Mar 4 Joe Vidulich Bronx, NY KO 1
Mar 5 Howard Hettrich Bronx, NY KO 1
Mar 6 Steve Kukol New York, NY W 3
Mar 6 Jimmy Butler New York, NY KO 1

135-lb. Open, Chicago-NY Inter-City
Mar 18 Tony Ancona New York, NY KO 3
Apr Smoke Robinson Rochester, NY W 5
Jul Tommy Moyer Rochester, NY W 5

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: delisa on 2002-03-01 21:54 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: delisa on 2002-03-01 21:56 ]</font>

enrique · Post by **enrique** » 13 Mar 2002, 18:08

Pep stated to me at the Hall of Fame several years ago that they fought once and Robinson won, as amateurs.

Brooklyn's Buddy · Post by **Brooklyn's Buddy** » 16 Mar 2002, 19:20

In Dave Anderson's biography of Robinson, Robinson claims that he and George Gainford spent the night in jail after he beat Pep.Robinson said that the local boxing people in Connecticut felt that Robinson must have been a pro if he could beat Pep.The next day,they were released when it was confirmed that Robinson was an amateur.I don't know if this story is true, but Robinson told it to Anderson.

punchpringle · Post by **punchpringle** » 04 May 2002, 07:33

from above POST i saw:

--- Arvey Lacelle New York L 3 **
--- Willie Pep New York W 3
118-lb. Sub-Novice, NY Golden Gloves Tourney
Jan 29 Thomas Polizzi New York, NY KO 2
Feb 4 Bobby Ruffin New York, NY W 3
Feb 16 Pasquale Pesca Queens, NY L 3 **

I THOUGHT ROBINSON WAS UNDEFEATED AS AN AMATEUR. WASN'T HIS RECORD SOMETHING LIKE 85-0 (40 OF HIS KO'S IN RD ONE)

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 17 Jul 2002, 15:53

In addition to fighting once in the amateurs, Robinson and Pep had a three round exhibition after they'd both retired as pros. Ray kidded around throughout the match, and Pep actually got pretty angry. I have a film of it somewhere and, as I recall, it's kind of funny.

delisa · Post by **delisa** » 17 Jul 2002, 16:52

I already detailed above the 1938 amateur bout with Pep and Robinson.

Here is the date of the exhibition they fought in 1965 --

Dec 13 1965 Ray Robinson Boston, MA Exh.4

Somebody can pull the report from the Boston papers and post it here if they like! (HINT)

Technically, Robinson had just annoucned his reitrement a few days before, but Willie was still an active pro when they fought

Rafael1 · Post by **Rafael1** » 17 Jul 2002, 18:02

The exhibition was just for entertainment value. Both guys kidded around and had a fun time. I've got it on film.

What a gift that would be to see....any chance of YouTube'n It?

sockdolager · Post by **sockdolager** » 17 Jul 2007, 19:49

the fight between the two actually happened at my highschool! faught at 130 but Pep was only like 110 at most.

Relic thread right here!

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 18 Jul 2007, 01:03

....i remember reading..a long time ago...about the willie pep book, but have never seen it, and i've assumed it was a self-published one. does anyone here know any more details about it? Is it worthwhile? So many older self published books aren't...before the print on demand started producing some of quality, unlike most from the old vanity press days. is it worth a search?

i'd be very grateful to anyone who can help me.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » 24 Oct 2014, 14:15

The truth of the bout is this...they fought on December 2, 1938 at the Duwell Athletic Association show, and they were not the main event. A number of Harlem Golden Glovers came over for the fight card, including Robinson (Roberts). The locals were aware of Ray Roberts, as he had fought in Thompsonville, CT a number of times (and had lost in August there to Charlie Baginski) and had fought in Norwich just two weeks prior to the Pep fight. The weights were Pep, 122, and Roberts, 123. Pep was the reigning CT State amateur flyweight champ, and Roberts (as Robinson) was he Metropolitan AAU (NY) bantamweight champ. As for the fight, it was one-sided...Pep landed one decent punch in the first round, but besides that he spent the fight on his bicycle and Roberts dominated. This was the only time they met.

fianafail · Post by **fianafail** » 21 Jun 2015, 08:41

Bob, I am Charlie Baginski's daughter. His name is actually Alexander Baginski but he was too young to fight at the Springfield boys. Club so he used his older brother Charlie's name in order to begin to box. I often tell people the story that my dad did fight and beat Ray (Roberts ) Robinson and that one time at the. Holyoke Boys Club Golden Gloves he public ally acknowledged my dad as one of the toughest guys he ever fought. But, my stories are often disregarded as untruthful. If you have any and all on my dad, including images, would love to have a copy. Thanks much

AntonS · Post by **AntonS** » 21 Jun 2015, 10:25

fianafail wrote:Bob, I am Charlie Baginski's daughter. His name is actually Alexander Baginski but he was too young to fight at the Springfield boys. Club so he used his older brother Charlie's name in order to begin to box. I often tell people the story that my dad did fight and beat Ray (Roberts ) Robinson and that one time at the. Holyoke Boys Club Golden Gloves he public ally acknowledged my dad as one of the toughest guys he ever fought. But, my stories are often disregarded as untruthful. If you have any and all on my dad, including images, would love to have a copy. Thanks much

Brought this to our historian's attention

Bob · Post by **Bob** » 27 Jun 2015, 21:37

If you send me an email address I will send you what I have for an amateur record of your Dad...it is not very complete, as I have only 30-40 of his fights, but it will give you an idea of when and where he was fighting, as well as the results of his two fights against Ray (Roberts) Robinson. He fought numerous fights in the Springfield / Holyoke area which I do not have, as well as a number of fights in Connecticut (which had a very active amateur scene at the time your Dad was fighting).

Best regards,

Bob

fianafail · Post by **fianafail** » 20 Nov 2020, 09:23

Here is my email....

[email protected]

Thank You!

Names one of my sons after my dad

DavidKehler · Post by **DavidKehler** » 31 May 2021, 14:50

I'm one of the BoxRec editors, and, using archived editions of ''The Hartford Courant'' as a source, I recently have been posting the results of Connecticut amateur boxing bouts from 1938 and 1939.

Thus far, I have posted results for four of Sugar Ray's Connecticut amateur bouts, and he used the name "Ray Roberts" in all of them. The first two of these bouts were held in Norwich, CT. On November 18, 1938, Sugar Ray won a 3 round decision over Al Brouillard. Ray reportedly weighed 130 lbs. to Brouillard's 128 lbs. (''The Hartford Courant'', 11-19-1938, p. 11) Two weeks later, on December 2, 1938, Sugar Ray won a 3 round decision over Willie Pep. Ray reportedly weighed 123 lbs. to Willie's 122 lbs. (''The Hartford Courant'', 12-3-1938, p. 11) So, if these reports of Sugar Ray's weight are to be believed, he dropped 7 pounds in two weeks. That's questionable. In the case of both of these bouts, the newspaper merely listed the names, weights, and results and provided no other information. Remarkably, neither of these bouts were a main event. Sugar Ray vs. Willie Pep was on the undercard of a main event between amateurs Dan Wilcox and Young Sharkey.

margaret thatcher · Post by **margaret thatcher** » 31 May 2021, 14:57

sugar ray robinson, another fake inflated amateur record

DavidKehler · Post by **DavidKehler** » 31 May 2021, 22:29

Margaret?

margaret thatcher · Post by **margaret thatcher** » 31 May 2021, 22:31

Yes my lad?

Ambling Alp II · Post by **Ambling Alp II** » 02 Jun 2021, 16:37

Guessing he is wondering why you would say that about Robinson.

margaret thatcher · Post by **margaret thatcher** » 04 Jun 2021, 19:56

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑02 Jun 2021, 16:37 Guessing he is wondering why you would say that about Robinson.

because 85-0 is a fake inflated record, pretty simple my man

Sugar Ray Robinson Vs. Willie Pep

Robinson-Pep exhibition

Robinson-Pep exhibition

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