Prime Sonny Liston vs. a prime Earnie Shavers?

[NYDominican]

A prime Sonny Liston against a prime Earnie Shavers?


What advantages (if any) would Sonny have over Earnie?



What advantages (if any) would Earnie have over Sonny?



What do you see happening in this fight?



Who would win?



Why?

[tiny_acres]

Earnie Shavers is one of if not my all time favorite heavyweight to watch.
There are 2 things you can darn near guarantee when watching a Shavers fight.Either Earnie
knocks them out brutally or he gets knocked out brutally.It is what made Shavers so fun to watch.

I would pick Liston to win by 8th round knock out in a very entertaining brawl.

[Syntax Error]

I'd give this one to Sonny too.

Liston was tough as hell, had arms as long as a squid's tentacles, plus he had a jab from the ages that would have kept Shavers at bay & I can see him being able to survive Shavers' bombs & take out the Acorn mid-rounds.

[BoxBuzz]

Liston faced the huge punching Cleveland Willliams who was a bit faster than Shavers, and did just fine. Not saying Williams hit quite as hard as Ernie.

And there would be great difficulty rating who was the harder puncher between Shavers and Williams, since allowing either of them to hit us would put us in dreamland and we would not be able to render a conscious rating of either of these men's power. lol.


By the way, Liston's power was pretty top notch as well. And that jab would keep Ernie honest.


Shavers ALWAYS has the punchers chance. In this case Liston has the punchers chance.....and a few more chances via his other strengths.

[tiny_acres]

Liston faced the huge punching Cleveland Willliams who was a bit faster than Shavers, and did just fine. Not saying Williams hit quite as hard as Ernie.

And there would be great difficulty rating who was the harder puncher between Shavers and Williams, since allowing either of them to hit us would put us in dreamland and we would not be able to render a conscious rating of either of these men's power. lol.


By the way, Liston's power was pretty top notch as well. And that jab would keep Ernie honest.


Shavers ALWAYS has the punchers chance. In this case Liston has the punchers chance.....and a few more chances via his other strengths.

I think Shavers was vastly more powerful than Williams.But like you said.I would not want to be hit by either
guy to find out for sure.

[HomicideHenry]

Shavers, in my view, is probably the most over-rated heavyweight contender of the 70s. Outside of that power, he had very little else--- his stamina was horrid, he cut easy, he had a weak chin, and his skills were average at best.

Liston, would of effed his world up. Two hits from that jack hammer jab of Sonny's and Shavers head would of been knocked back, and Liston would of finished him with a straight right, right on the jaw. Liston hit harder than Foreman did, which goes to say something.

[yancey]

Shavers, in my view, is probably the most over-rated heavyweight contender of the 70s. Outside of that power, he had very little else--- his stamina was horrid, he cut easy, he had a weak chin, and his skills were average at best.

Liston, would of effed his world up. Two hits from that jack hammer jab of Sonny's and Shavers head would of been knocked back, and Liston would of finished him with a straight right, right on the jaw. Liston hit harder than Foreman did, which goes to say something.

^

Agree with everything, with the exception of Sonny hitting harder than Foreman.

[BoxBuzz]

Shavers, in my view, is probably the most over-rated heavyweight contender of the 70s. Outside of that power, he had very little else--- his stamina was horrid, he cut easy, he had a weak chin, and his skills were average at best.

Liston, would of effed his world up. Two hits from that jack hammer jab of Sonny's and Shavers head would of been knocked back, and Liston would of finished him with a straight right, right on the jaw. Liston hit harder than Foreman did, which goes to say something.

I agree that Liston is a bridge to far for Earnie under most circumstances. Can't agree that Liston's power in a single punch outclassed Foreman. I could argue that he was as effective overall. But single punch power? Not in my estimation.

[HomicideHenry]

Shavers, in my view, is probably the most over-rated heavyweight contender of the 70s. Outside of that power, he had very little else--- his stamina was horrid, he cut easy, he had a weak chin, and his skills were average at best.

Liston, would of effed his world up. Two hits from that jack hammer jab of Sonny's and Shavers head would of been knocked back, and Liston would of finished him with a straight right, right on the jaw. Liston hit harder than Foreman did, which goes to say something.

I agree that Liston is a bridge to far for Earnie under most circumstances. Can't agree that Liston's power in a single punch outclassed Foreman. I could argue that he was as effective overall. But single punch power? Not in my estimation.

I'm basing this all off of guys who had the pleasure/displeasure of either having fought both men or were sparring partners of both men. Chuck Wepner, for instance, claimed that Liston hit much harder than Foreman did.

[Ambling Alp II]

Weak argument. Assuming Wepner actually said that, it is important to remember that it was only Foreman's 4th pro fight when he fought Wepner. Ali is the only other common opponent.

[The Great John L]

Shavers, in my view, is probably the most over-rated heavyweight contender of the 70s. Outside of that power, he had very little else--- his stamina was horrid, he cut easy, he had a weak chin, and his skills were average at best.

Liston, would of effed his world up. Two hits from that jack hammer jab of Sonny's and Shavers head would of been knocked back, and Liston would of finished him with a straight right, right on the jaw. Liston hit harder than Foreman did, which goes to say something.

Your comment about Shavers chin is typical reaction to simple record browing in Boxrec. If you actually watched his fights you would know that the only time Shavers was ever dropped by a single shot when he wasn't exhausted was when he got caught by the big punching Jeff Sims later in his career. Besides the Quarry stoppage where he was hit with probably 20-25 power shots before going down, all of his stopages occured after he was punched out and in most of them a strong wind would have knocked him over.

Shavers actually had a pretty good chin. He was never dropped by Young or Ali and yet Foreman was. Does that mean George had a weak chin? He also stood up much better to Lyles punching than George did as he didn't hit the canvas until after winning the first part of the fight and then running out of gas.

Liston beats him 4 out of 5, but if Shavers lands, Sonny would have caved just like everybody else that Ernie hit solid.

[tiny_acres]

Shavers, in my view, is probably the most over-rated heavyweight contender of the 70s. Outside of that power, he had very little else--- his stamina was horrid, he cut easy, he had a weak chin, and his skills were average at best.

Liston, would of effed his world up. Two hits from that jack hammer jab of Sonny's and Shavers head would of been knocked back, and Liston would of finished him with a straight right, right on the jaw. Liston hit harder than Foreman did, which goes to say something.

Your comment about Shavers chin is typical reaction to simple record browing in Boxrec. If you actually watched his fights you would know that the only time Shavers was ever dropped by a single shot when he wasn't exhausted was when he got caught by the big punching Jeff Sims later in his career. Besides the Quarry stoppage where he was hit with probably 20-25 power shots before going down, all of his stopages occured after he was punched out and in most of them a strong wind would have knocked him over.

Shavers actually had a pretty good chin. He was never dropped by Young or Ali and yet Foreman was. Does that mean George had a weak chin? He also stood up much better to Lyles punching than George did as he didn't hit the canvas until after winning the first part of the fight and then running out of gas.

Liston beats him 4 out of 5, but if Shavers lands, Sonny would have caved just like everybody else that Ernie hit solid.

Great post.Yes Shavers was not china chinned.But he blocked a ton of punches with that head of his.
Not a great way do defend one's self....Man I miss him.So much fun to watch

[HomicideHenry]

Weak argument. Assuming Wepner actually said that, it is important to remember that it was only Foreman's 4th pro fight when he fought Wepner. Ali is the only other common opponent.

Wepner did indeed say it. I interviewed him myself on ATGRADIO.

And while it is true, Foreman only had a handful of fights at the time... Chuck himself had 24 fights as a pro and had well over 100 bouts as an amateur... at that stage, Wepner already had fought Liston and Mathis and Roman. He wasn't just some walk over. So, in my view, if Chuck--- who had faced that kind of abuse so early on in the pros--- he can say, for sure, who hit harder. He fought Foreman in August of 1969 and fought Liston ten months later.

From what Chuck said, Foreman hit him so hard the bone around his eye broke and pierced the skin. Even so, he said it was Liston who hit even harder and Sonny gave Wepner over 80 stitches. I also seen Foreman say in many interviews that the man who hit him hardest--- was also Liston, when he was his sparring partner.

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/all-timegr ... amel-quinn

Also on the broadcast was Marvin Camel, the first Cruiserweight champion.

[Ambling Alp II]

Foreman was a pro for less than 2 months when Wepner fought him. You don't think Foreman would improved quite bit after that? By the way Foreman stopped Wepner in just 3 rounds. He must have hit hit pretty hard. He probably didn't even land the best punches that he was capable of at that time.

Foreman's comments about Liston? First that was sparring. Sparring means nothing. 2nd, You have to take what Foreman says with a grain of salt. He was always saying things that you don't know if he really believed.
Even saying that, all that means is Foreman was saying that Liston hit harder than anyone that Foreman himself fought. It doesn't mean Liston hit harder than Foreman. Obviously Foreman didn't fight himself.

[Tuan_Jim]

Wepner also says he legitimately knocked down Ali, rather than stepping on his foot. I love Wepner and enjoyed his contributions to the Tosches book on Liston, but it's obvious he is an unreliable witness.

Foreman for his part says in his book he admired how Liston refused to give in to his "superior strength." What is the truth in all this?

I would lean to Foreman as the harder hitter, but they're both punching with such a level of force where it makes very little difference.

[HomicideHenry]

Foreman was a pro for less than 2 months when Wepner fought him. You don't think Foreman would improved quite bit after that? By the way Foreman stopped Wepner in just 3 rounds. He must have hit hit pretty hard. He probably didn't even land the best punches that he was capable of at that time.

Foreman's comments about Liston? First that was sparring. Sparring means nothing. 2nd, You have to take what Foreman says with a grain of salt. He was always saying things that you don't know if he really believed.
Even saying that, all that means is Foreman was saying that Liston hit harder than anyone that Foreman himself fought. It doesn't mean Liston hit harder than Foreman. Obviously Foreman didn't fight himself.

Of course Foreman improved. But power is power. It doesn't necessarily become 'greater' over time, but rather techniques to administer that power gets better over time. Foreman at that time, was still the same Foreman who won the gold medal and was raw and green. I ain't arguing that. But I will say, the power was all the same. Whether that's 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, etc. the power by and large remained the same. Foreman's techniques only got better.

And that is true that Foreman has made some rather strange or bizarre comments in the past. But in the last few years he has been more open and honest with himself--- take for instance the whole "doctored drink" before the Ali fight story that he told for years and years. Wasn't until the last few years, he's admitted he said it because he couldn't admit that he was out boxed, out hustled, out thought in the ring. He's even said in recent interviews that "The old George couldn't of beaten the young George," after years of saying the older version was superior to the young version--- which in one sense I do believe is true, but he was being a realist.

As for Liston... I think, honestly, he may of had the most powerful jab, if not the greatest jab, in heavyweight history. His all around size, build, physique, was such to deliver nothing but power in everything he threw. Skill wise, in my view, he was far better than Foreman at any stage of his career. Because of this, technique and all, Liston delivered far harder punches than Foreman could. But I will agree, George was physically stronger than Liston.

Wepner also says he legitimately knocked down Ali, rather than stepping on his foot. I love Wepner and enjoyed his contributions to the Tosches book on Liston, but it's obvious he is an unreliable witness.

Foreman for his part says in his book he admired how Liston refused to give in to his "superior strength." What is the truth in all this?

I would lean to Foreman as the harder hitter, but they're both punching with such a level of force where it makes very little difference.

The way I look at it, is this... Chuck had really no business in that ring in Cleveland with Ali... the fact that some shuffling, wide open, easy to cut, limited skilled guy could even manage to step on Ali's foot... *shrugs* The referee made a bad call, but its a call that goes down in the books... if Wepner wants to sell beer, with pictures of the "knockdown" on his business cards then so be it. But I wont take it away from him.

Outside of that... I don't see how it makes him an unreliable witness, considering Chuck is always so open and honest about things. He doesn't hide the fact of his shady past, or his all around ability or his career. Let the dude hold on to the "fluke" all he wants.

[p4p1]

Power absolutely does change. Bodies mature get bigger, stronger, faster ,get to their prime. Last time I checked 20 isn't an age when a man is at his physical peak. Yes power punchers punch hard in their teens but do you seriously think the power doesn't grow any in their 20s?

[Nile4000]

Earnie might shake up Sonny a couple of times, but Sonny has him out of there by the ninth round.Too much skill, and power.

[Ambling Alp II]

Power absolutely does change. Bodies mature get bigger, stronger, faster ,get to their prime. Last time I checked 20 isn't an age when a man is at his physical peak. Yes power punchers punch hard in their teens but do you seriously think the power doesn't grow any in their 20s?

Agree totally. Homocidehenry comments were silly. Of course power can (and usually does) increase from when a fighter is inexperienced compared to his prime. Physically, a fighter will usually get stronger. That will increase his punching power. Improved technique will help as well.

[HomicideHenry]

I'll admit power is the LAST thing to go... but hell boys, I want to know what kryptonite you all been drinking, cus at 29 I am nowhere near as strong as I was when I was 18 years old. Only difference between now and then, is that this version of myself, is a tad bit more experienced. I know fighters are something different than us "mortals"... but lets get real here, people are excusing getting older and fatter for "maturing" and "getting stronger"... its the exact opposite. With that logic Foreman would of been a harder puncher at 45 than he was when he was 25, etc.

[Ambling Alp II]

There is such as a thing as before your prime, during your prime, and after your prime.

Many people aren't in as good as shape in their 20s as they were late teens. However, that is usually do to inactivity. If you get as much exercise in your 20s as you did in your teens, you will be stronger in your 20s than when you were 18.

ie in the NFL, a rookie is almost always much stronger than he was when he was a college freshman.
In boxing, a boxer is (or at least should be) training hard in his 20s. He will get stronger. Eventually (usually somewhere around age 30) a fighter will usually gradually will start to decline in strength and other areas of fitness.

Of course there are exceptions to this. But basically, that is the gist of it.

[yancey]

Earnie might shake up Sonny a couple of times, but Sonny has him out of there by the ninth round.Too much skill, and power.

Sonny would not need nine rounds.

And your red letters are hard on the eye.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Sonny wins in 2nd round blowout.

[Nile4000]

Earnie might shake up Sonny a couple of times, but Sonny has him out of there by the ninth round.Too much skill, and power.

Sonny would not need nine rounds.

And your red letters are hard on the eye.

Sorry, but that's my thing, man.

[BoxBuzz]

Itch your thing? well do it, and move on.