Prime Frazier vs Prime Foreman

[abdelfadeeli]

For those of you that have watched it, you may have noticed that the ref does a very bad job in this as he allows Foreman to repeatedly get away with just shoving Joe away and pushing him to the side in order to set up his clubbing shots. Frazier actually has a fair degree of success in getting to Foreman early on and lands some decent left hooks and jabs. Foreman has trouble controlling range and keeping Frazier off him. With a different ref I think it would be interesting to see how Foreman wold have coped if he hadn't been allowed manhandle Frazier and repeatedly shove him back with full on pushes. The ref should have addressed this early.

This brings me to my other point. It may seem bizarre to criticize Foreman in a fight where he blasted out such a high profile opponent - but I've always been bothered by his tactics in this. Very little use of the jab, no real success at keeping Frazier at bay and rather untidy, wild punches. Frazier did most of his best work in close, so I would have expected Foreman to box and use his jab to set up his power shots. But crucially he seemed unable to do this and was allowed to get away with resorting to pushes and shoves followed by wild swings that left him prime to be caught square from a left hook - Frazier's marquee punch.

As it happened, Foreman's power and roughhousing was too much for Frazier but I do think it would have been interesting to see what would have happened with a different ref. As Ali showed, Foreman could be prone to punching himself out with his big swings and the drawback of having power is that you often don't get into later rounds. Frazier for me was reasonably successful at getting to Foreman early on made possible by Foreman neglecting the jab. Had it gone on for longer with a ref that wouldn't let Foreman away with his pushing I think it would have been interesting. Such was Foreman's power, Frazier's added fat, Frazier's decline after the FOTC, and him underestimating Foreman, that the result may well have been the same once he landed a big one but I do think the ref and his tactics made it far easier than it should/could have been.
That being said, Prime vs Prime it's a very different story. Win or lose, Frazier will do much better than he did in '73.
Frazier is not as easy to hit as many think. He was actually harder to hit than Tyson. If he can avoid some of ALI's punches, he can certainly avoid Foreman's Harder but SLOWER and LESS ACCURATE punches.
Another thing that should be added, contrary to popular belief, Frazier could change his style.Frazier was known for his come forward style, but he didn't always just walk right into his opponents power range and try to beat them down. He countered, used his feet better and punched off the angles when pressured himself. He did this against Chuvalo, Quarry, Ellis and Bonavena in their rematch. Against Foreman, Joe thought that he could just out-smart and out-bully the bully and instead he got bullied around himself.
Chuvalo pressured Frazier and backed him up a couple of times in the fight. What did Joe do? He backed up, jabbed, countered and used his right hand more, and in better condition, showed the head movement against Chuvalo that he didn't against Foreman. Plus the fact that Chuvalo wasn't allowed to turn the match into a wrestling contest like Mercante allowed Foreman to do against Frazier. Now we all no there's a distinct difference in punching power between Chuvalo and Foreman, but not a whole lot of difference strength wise.
I know I'm in the minority in this one but I pick Frazier to survive the early rounds and break Foreman down with his relentless body attack.
Please post something other than "It's Foreman" and "Styles make fights".

[yancey]

For those of you that have watched it, you may have noticed that the ref does a very bad job in this as he allows Foreman to repeatedly get away with just shoving Joe away and pushing him to the side in order to set up his clubbing shots. Frazier actually has a fair degree of success in getting to Foreman early on and lands some decent left hooks and jabs. Foreman has trouble controlling range and keeping Frazier off him. With a different ref I think it would be interesting to see how Foreman wold have coped if he hadn't been allowed manhandle Frazier and repeatedly shove him back with full on pushes. The ref should have addressed this early.

This brings me to my other point. It may seem bizarre to criticize Foreman in a fight where he blasted out such a high profile opponent - but I've always been bothered by his tactics in this. Very little use of the jab, no real success at keeping Frazier at bay and rather untidy, wild punches. Frazier did most of his best work in close, so I would have expected Foreman to box and use his jab to set up his power shots. But crucially he seemed unable to do this and was allowed to get away with resorting to pushes and shoves followed by wild swings that left him prime to be caught square from a left hook - Frazier's marquee punch.

As it happened, Foreman's power and roughhousing was too much for Frazier but I do think it would have been interesting to see what would have happened with a different ref. As Ali showed, Foreman could be prone to punching himself out with his big swings and the drawback of having power is that you often don't get into later rounds. Frazier for me was reasonably successful at getting to Foreman early on made possible by Foreman neglecting the jab. Had it gone on for longer with a ref that wouldn't let Foreman away with his pushing I think it would have been interesting. Such was Foreman's power, Frazier's added fat, Frazier's decline after the FOTC, and him underestimating Foreman, that the result may well have been the same once he landed a big one but I do think the ref and his tactics made it far easier than it should/could have been.
That being said, Prime vs Prime it's a very different story. Win or lose, Frazier will do much better than he did in '73.
Frazier is not as easy to hit as many think. He was actually harder to hit than Tyson. If he can avoid some of ALI's punches, he can certainly avoid Foreman's Harder but SLOWER and LESS ACCURATE punches.
Another thing that should be added, contrary to popular belief, Frazier could change his style.Frazier was known for his come forward style, but he didn't always just walk right into his opponents power range and try to beat them down. He countered, used his feet better and punched off the angles when pressured himself. He did this against Chuvalo, Quarry, Ellis and Bonavena in their rematch. Against Foreman, Joe thought that he could just out-smart and out-bully the bully and instead he got bullied around himself.
Chuvalo pressured Frazier and backed him up a couple of times in the fight. What did Joe do? He backed up, jabbed, countered and used his right hand more, and in better condition, showed the head movement against Chuvalo that he didn't against Foreman. Plus the fact that Chuvalo wasn't allowed to turn the match into a wrestling contest like Mercante allowed Foreman to do against Frazier. Now we all no there's a distinct difference in punching power between Chuvalo and Foreman, but not a whole lot of difference strength wise.
I know I'm in the minority in this one but I pick Frazier to survive the early rounds and break Foreman down with his relentless body attack.
Please post something other than "It's Foreman" and "Styles make fights".

Interesting post. I agree with much of it. Have posted similar thoughts before.

Foreman definitely got away with pushing-shoving moves in the first fight. Frazier had to get tight and stay tight in this one and it was very hard to do with Foreman being allowed to do what he did.

I give '73 Frazier about a 20% chance against '73 Foreman if Mercante had stopped the pushing and shoving. '73 Frazier was definitely on the decline, fat and happy, and way too confident going into this fight, all of which you have pointed out.

I give '69 prime Frazier about a very viable 40%+ chance against '73 Foreman. The style match up is horrible for the swarmer (JF) versus slugger (GF), but prime Joe was harder to hit than the '73 version. There is very good chance that Frazier avoids heavy damage early, gets to the inside of GF's punching radius, and takes George out to deep water and drowns him.

Once again, my thoughts are based upon a clean encounter, with no pushing, shoving, and wrestling allowed.

Be prepared for posters that will say GF is always a 100% bet in a match-up against Joe.

Not so, but I'm not going to waste any time with them.

[Rexob]

Foreman ktfo Frazier every time from the start middle and end of their great careers. Foreman just to big strong and powerful for Frazier.


END OF THREAD!

[Woldemar]

Foreman beat prime Frazier two times.

Thats all

[yancey]

Foreman ktfo Frazier every time from the start middle and end of their great careers. Foreman just to big strong and powerful for Frazier.


END OF THREAD!

I think you have absorbed a few too many uppercuts, pal.

START OF THREAD!

[The Great John L]

Foreman beat prime Frazier two times.

Thats all

Do you really think Joe was in his prime when they fought the second time?

[Woldemar]

When they fought a first time Joe was prime.George knock him out a second round

[yancey]

Foreman beat prime Frazier two times.

Thats all

Frazier was "prime" in '73 and '76???

What the hell are you on?




But thanks for the laugh.

[The Great John L]

When they fought a first time Joe was prime.George knock him out a second round

OK, so you you did rethink your first statement, that's good.

I would agree that Frazier was at the very least very near his prime in their first fight. Do you think he entered the ring well prepared for Foreman?

I'm assuming that you've seen the fight as well earlier Frazier fights.

[yancey]

When they fought a first time Joe was prime.George knock him out a second round

OK, so you you did rethink your first statement, that's good.

I would agree that Frazier was at the very least very near his prime in their first fight. Do you think he entered the ring well prepared for Foreman?

I'm assuming that you've seen the fight as well earlier Frazier fights.

I will absolutely disagree with the notion that Frazier was at "the very least very near his prime" in the first Foreman fight.

Frazier clearly declined post-FOTC. I have absolutely no doubt about this.

[HomicideHenry]

Stylistic nightmare for Frazier, Tyson, Dempsey, Marciano, Jeffries, etc. @ prime and/or old Foreman.

I'd venture to say Foreman could of beaten any of those men at least 75 out of 100.

[The Great John L]

When they fought a first time Joe was prime.George knock him out a second round

OK, so you you did rethink your first statement, that's good.

I would agree that Frazier was at the very least very near his prime in their first fight. Do you think he entered the ring well prepared for Foreman?

I'm assuming that you've seen the fight as well earlier Frazier fights.

I will absolutely disagree with the notion that Frazier was at "the very least very near his prime" in the first Foreman fight.

Frazier clearly declined post-FOTC. I have absolutely no doubt about this.

8)

Relax, I'm trying to engage him in a logical discussion and I've already got him to recognize that his initial statemant wasn't correct. I'm now working towards trying to get him to notice Fraziers conditioning in the first fight. Most will never back off from the Frazier at/near his prime comment, but most can recognize that Joe was soft for the fight.

Most current fans don't even know that at the time Foreman wasn't very highly regarded going into the Frazier fight. He was a pretty significant underdog and it wasn't all based on the fact that Frazier was a great fighter.

[The Great John L]

Stylistic nightmare for Frazier, Tyson, Dempsey, Marciano, Jeffries, etc. @ prime and/or old Foreman.

I'd venture to say Foreman could of beaten any of those men at least 75 out of 100.

I get what you're saying about Frazier, Tyson, Dempsey and Marciano because they all were basically swarmers, but why do you have Jeff lumped in with them?

And I think your 75% of the time guestimate isn't far from my own opinion.

Now could someone explain to me why it is that almost everyone says what you're saying about Foreman being a nightmare for swarmers, but the same people are completely oblivious to the fact that guys like Tunney, Holmes, Young, etc. are stylistic nightmares for Foreman and could probably beat him 75% of the time?

[Nile4000]

True Prime Frazier, without the tactics, could have beaten prime Foreman, but he would have to totally be in sync with what he's doing.

[HomicideHenry]

Stylistic nightmare for Frazier, Tyson, Dempsey, Marciano, Jeffries, etc. @ prime and/or old Foreman.

I'd venture to say Foreman could of beaten any of those men at least 75 out of 100.

I get what you're saying about Frazier, Tyson, Dempsey and Marciano because they all were basically swarmers, but why do you have Jeff lumped in with them?

And I think your 75% of the time guestimate isn't far from my own opinion.

Now could someone explain to me why it is that almost everyone says what you're saying about Foreman being a nightmare for swarmers, but the same people are completely oblivious to the fact that guys like Tunney, Holmes, Young, etc. are stylistic nightmares for Foreman and could probably beat him 75% of the time?

Jeffries, essentially, was a swarmer. He fought from a crouch, and sprang at his opponents. He also threw from the crouch, his famous right hook. For being almost 6'3" he gave up alot of his size and reach, by fighting out of this peculiar position--- unique then, and odd today. From what I understand, Dempsey (for example) based his own style exclusively off of Jeffries. I do think--- however--- of all the swarmer/crouch types, it would be Jeffries who could better against Foreman than the rest. Why? Because Jeffries fought a similar opponent in Tom Sharkey who one could probably call the late 19th century Foreman, and went the distance with him twice. Jeffries, until Johnson, never appeared to ever be seriously hurt or on the way out--- and he faced some rather murderous punchers in his day. He was fast, well conditioned, and because he was nearly Foreman's own size--- I think this could potentially off set the advantages Foreman would have over the smaller Dempsey, Marciano, Frazier, etc.

And... I agree that Holmes, Tunney, Lewis, and others would also of been a stylistic nightmare for Foreman... these men were proven masters of ring science, well conditioned, and had the ability to take not only a punch--- but to get off the canvas (if it occured) in order to win. I'd argue, also, that maybe prime Holyfield could have potentially of beaten prime Foreman, because Holyfield was superior counter puncher and threw punches in such rapid fire combinations, I don't know if Foreman could have kept up with him.

[The Great John L]

While he fought out of a crouch, a style he learned from the great Tommy Ryan, I would consider Jeff more of a counterpuncher than a swarmer. Just a slightly different opinion I guess.

[Rexob]

Come on! you are having a laugh surely? Frazier would never have beaten Foreman in prime or not! Foreman was totally wrong for Frazier in everyway.

[yancey]

Come on! you are having a laugh surely? Frazier would never have beaten Foreman in prime or not! Foreman was totally wrong for Frazier in everyway.

It's all so simple, isn't it?



p.s. In case you didn't get the sarcasm, NO ONE is calling prime Frazier the favorite to beat '73 Foreman.

Some of us are suggesting that if certain things went right, possibilities for Joe do legitimately exist. The prime version of Frazier was great enough to have a viable chance to overcome the horrible stylistic match-up. '73 Foreman admittedly had stamina problems.

But never mind, you may be best off in your black and white world.

[BoxBuzz]

I'll not hear another terse word logged in against Smokin' Joe!

A finer fella there never was!

And he could sing a lick or two as well!

Frazier would have about as good a chance of beating a well prepared and prime Ali as he would have beating an equally prepared and prime Foreman.

These guys get in the ring, and things could go wrong for any of these three in a hundred ways. None of those three should ever be ruled out one on one against anyone. Any of them could exploit a bad moment by the other.

Now kindly take your intellectual argument outside, where it belongs.

[The Great John L]

And he could sing a lick or two as well!

I think we all loved Joe, but let's not get too carried away...

[tiny_acres]

When they fought a first time Joe was prime.George knock him out a second round

OK, so you you did rethink your first statement, that's good.

I would agree that Frazier was at the very least very near his prime in their first fight. Do you think he entered the ring well prepared for Foreman?

I'm assuming that you've seen the fight as well earlier Frazier fights.


I will absolutely disagree with the notion that Frazier was at "the very least very near his prime" in the first Foreman fight.

Frazier clearly declined post-FOTC. I have absolutely no doubt about this.

8)

Relax, I'm trying to engage him in a logical discussion and I've already got him to recognize that his initial statemant wasn't correct. I'm now working towards trying to get him to notice Fraziers conditioning in the first fight. Most will never back off from the Frazier at/near his prime comment, but most can recognize that Joe was soft for the fight.

Most current fans don't even know that at the time Foreman wasn't very highly regarded going into the Frazier fight. He was a pretty significant underdog and it wasn't all based on the fact that Frazier was a great fighter.

I remember the newspaper articles about how Foreman was nothing.He built his record against bums.
(Reminds me of the way we talk about Deontay Wilder.)
Frazier I do not think took Foreman as seriously as he should have.I do not think the end result would of
changed.Foreman was destined to win that night against a slightly past prime Frazier.

Prime for prime I still pick Foreman but by a 9th or 10th round knock out.In a fantastic fight that we would of all
been talking about today.

[Rexob]

Come on! you are having a laugh surely? Frazier would never have beaten Foreman in prime or not! Foreman was totally wrong for Frazier in everyway.

It's all so simple, isn't it?



p.s. In case you didn't get the sarcasm, NO ONE is calling prime Frazier the favorite to beat '73 Foreman.

Some of us are suggesting that if certain things went right, possibilities for Joe do legitimately exist. The prime version of Frazier was great enough to have a viable chance to overcome the horrible stylistic match-up. '73 Foreman admittedly had stamina problems.

But never mind, you may be best off in your black and white world.

I'm so sorry, you cannot get the grasp of this fight, in your blinkered world of Frazier's ass but Frazier would never beat Foreman whatever prep he had. No need for all the detail about it would never happen sorry pal x

[Broomhall]

I dont get this Frazier not being in his prime for the first fight. He was 29, coming off an unbeaten record including wins over Ali, Quarry and Ellis. He was confident, fit and strong.

Like many heavyweights Fraziers weight varied for fights. He is quoted before the fight "dont worry. I am more prepared for this fight than any other"

He was 214 for Foreman 215.5 for Stander, 217.5 for Daniels. Futch was also pleased with how Fraziers camp went. He may have been over confident, but that doesnt mean he wasnt in his prime or hadnt prepared properly.

How could this have not been a prime Joe Frazier?

[The Great John L]

I dont get this Frazier not being in his prime for the first fight. He was 29, coming off an unbeaten record including wins over Ali, Quarry and Ellis. He was confident, fit and strong.

Like many heavyweights Fraziers weight varied for fights. He is quoted before the fight "dont worry. I am more prepared for this fight than any other"

He was 214 for Foreman 215.5 for Stander, 217.5 for Daniels. Futch was also pleased with how Fraziers camp went. He may have been over confident, but that doesnt mean he wasnt in his prime or hadnt prepared properly.

How could this have not been a prime Joe Frazier?

Let's skip the prime discussion and talk about preperation. Have you watched many Frazier fights? Do you really think the Frazier that fought in the 3 post FOTC fights looked as well conditioned as the FOTC or earlier Frazier? You even listed his weights 214 - 217.5 in these three post FOTC fights, but you don't list his weights prior to those fights. I'll save you the trouble. 205.5 Ali, 209 Foster, 205 Ellis, 203.5 Quarry.

Fighters and their handlers always say they're ready before a fight. Foreman was a big underdog, and while everybody looked at him as a much better opponent than Daniels and Stander, he was generally regarded as a raw, protected prospect.

[Rexob]

Un-prepared against Foreman Frazier got what he deserved then.