Who was the greatest lightweight of All-Time?

[Tomasino]

Ambling Alp. You know when the great Sugar Ray Leonard fought the great Hands of Stone he was CLUTCHING AND GRABBING LIKE A SISSY. HE WAS FIGHTING FOR SURVIVAL. But the media and folks like you wanted to play it off that LEONARD DID NOT FIGHT HIS FIGHT, IT WAS CLOSE, AND HE SLUG IT OUT WITH the great Roberto Duran...Really? Did he fight not his fight, or he just simply got whupped by a lightweight?...Was it close or is it A LIE OF THE MEDIA to make Leonard look good? You know it, was not close at all. Duran whupped his ass, plain and simple.

Leonard slug it out with Duran? Esteban DeJesus did. Ray Lampkin did...They got knocked out when they did...They did not CLUTCHED AND GRABBED LIKE LEONARD DID. Bigger and stronger than Duran and he was clutching and grabbing for survival. Get the fvck out here!!! FIGHT! DON'T GRAB AND CLUTCH!

Ken Buchanan was an excellent fighter. Nobody in here said that he was a top 100 atg pound per pound. But he was formidable opponent of the great Hands of Stone. To be champion in ALL LEVELS OF COMPETITION DOES NOT MEAN NOTHING TO YOU? REALLY?...If that is not greatness, then what is greatness? The guy was a masterful boxer, with an excellent and fast jab, great chin, AND NEVER WAS KO'D IN HIS LIFE! How about that, mister?

He was not worse talentwise than Sammy Angott, Bob Montgomery or Beau Jack. He could fight. His 43-1 record before losing to Duran was not deceiving. It was what it was. And he proved it that he was QUALITY.

Ray Lampkin WENT TOE TO TOE with the Hands of Stone. Something that Leonard did not do. Lampkin did fight. Not Leonard. He did it in EXTREME CONDITIONS. So that ain't quality?

Leonard did not outboxed Duran the second time around. Duran quit. Duran did not had it and Leonard knew it. It was an OFF NIGHT and you know it. Leonard could never beat a well prepared and in shape Duran...You know it. Just watch the first fight, mister!

Do you know Duran personally, Elmer? Perhaps you are brothers?

[Ambling Alp II]

elmer has always been that way with Duran. He builds up Duran's opponents to be much better than they were so that it makes Duran look better.
Suddenly we are supposed to be impressed if a guy (Lampkin) once beat the Australian champion.
We are supposed to be impressed with if someone was once the Puerto Rican champion. Of course these minor titles are never mentioned by him in any other context.
Buchanan's record is supposed to impress us. Doesn't matter that it wasn't against stellar competition.
Duran's losses? almost always an excuse. Of course when Duran wins, excuses for his opponents never get mentioned by him.
Opponents that Duran could have fought but didn't were all afraid of him. Whatever.
Sometimes his arguments are irrelevant; what does Ray Leonard have to do with who was the greatest lightweight of all time? He wants to count it because it is by far his biggest win. Of course he has excuses for Duran's loss to Leonard.
Duran was forever a lightweight. Doesn't matter if he was a welterweight or a jr middleweight. Of course, he doesn't do that with anyone else.
Sometimes his arguments don't make any sense at all. He often says that the first Duran-Leonard wasn't close; yet he himself once said that he only had Duran winning by 3 points.

In his latest post he says that Buchanan talent wise was as good as Montgomery, Beau Jack, and Angott. He also says no one is claiming that Buchanan is one of the top 100 of all time. Well, a lot of people do consider Montgomery, Jack, and Angott to be top 100.

[elmersalsa]

elmer has always been that way with Duran. He builds up Duran's opponents to be much better than they were so that it makes Duran look better.
Suddenly we are supposed to be impressed if a guy (Lampkin) once beat the Australian champion.
We are supposed to be impressed with if someone was once the Puerto Rican champion. Of course these minor titles are never mentioned by him in any other context.
Buchanan's record is supposed to impress us. Doesn't matter that it wasn't against stellar competition.
Duran's losses? almost always an excuse. Of course when Duran wins, excuses for his opponents never get mentioned by him.
Opponents that Duran could have fought but didn't were all afraid of him. Whatever.
Sometimes his arguments are irrelevant; what does Ray Leonard have to do with who was the greatest lightweight of all time? He wants to count it because it is by far his biggest win. Of course he has excuses for Duran's loss to Leonard.
Duran was forever a lightweight. Doesn't matter if he was a welterweight or a jr middleweight. Of course, he doesn't do that with anyone else.
Sometimes his arguments don't make any sense at all. He often says that the first Duran-Leonard wasn't close; yet he himself once said that he only had Duran winning by 3 points.

In his latest post he says that Buchanan talent wise was as good as Montgomery, Beau Jack, and Angott. He also says no one is claiming that Buchanan is one of the top 100 of all time. Well, a lot of people do consider Montgomery, Jack, and Angott to be top 100.

First of all, I do not consider Bob Montgomery nor Sammy Angott in the top 100 p4p. Not a lot of people has ranked them that way. So that is A LIE. Those were the great Ike Williams opponents.

I have said before that the ONLY ONE, THE ONLY ONE that had a better career wins at lightweight better than the great Roberto Duran is Williams. Anybody else that you want to mention, are close or at par with Duran's opposition.

I do mention achievements of Duran's opponents at lightweight TO LET PEOPLE KNOW, OR TO LET PEOPLE LIKE YOU KNOW, THAT THESE GUYS WERE VERY GOOD. THEY WERE NOT TOMATO CANS like you and others are trying to imply. You and those other people got to do more research about opponents before calling them that they were nothing to be concerned or they were not special comments.


Boxing is too big for America...Boxing is a world wide sport. Not only Americans practice it, mister.

It seems to me that you have never seen Ken Buchanan fight. See his fights before Duran's. Maybe you will have a better view of him. Buchanan was an EXCEPTIONAL and EXCELLENT FIGHTER. He could match in skill with any other lightweight in history you put in front of him. He got CREDENTIALS for hall of fame. If Barry McGuigan is in the hall, then why not Esteban De Jesus? Esteban got credentials. He did way more than McGuigan. Why he is not in the hall, sir? How could that be, sir? Explain that to me.

De Jesus was Puerto Rico, NABF and WBC World Lightweight champion. How come that is not good enough? He and Buchanan were champions in all levels of competition at the pro level. He was an EXCELLENT FIGHTER. The ONLY ONE to fight Duran 3 times in Duran's prime. Still, he does not get any props...Well, I guess he was not American

Can someone read this and not tell me that is not true? Just look it up.

You make EXCUSES FOR the great Sugar Ray Leonard when he lost to Duran...Now you do not remember, Alp? How you said that he did not fight his fight? That is BALONEY. Duran whupped him good and that is all to it. A lightweight beat him. Leonard did CLUTCHED AND GRABBED...EVERYONE IN HERE KNOWS THAT. DeJesus and Lampkin went TOE TO TOE with Roberto. I give them more merit when they fought Duran than Leonard to tell you the truth. And Leonard still got his ass kicked with all that clutching and grabbing.

You was there at the times...You know that NOBODY WANTED A PIECE OF THE GREAT ROBERTO DURAN when he was the world lightweight champion. The great Alexis Arguello did not come up...Why? Danny Lopez? Did not come up. Alfredo Escalera? Did not come up. Antonio Cervantes? Did not even looked Duran's way when Duran called him many times. There are the tapes. You could look it up.

The great Carlos Ortiz does not have better opponents at lightweight than Duran.
Neither the great Benny Leonard, nor the great Tony Canzoneri, nor the great Henry Armstrong.

Neither the great Joe Brown, nor Beau Jack nor Sammy Angott had better wins of opponents than Duran at lightweight.

It may seem that is true, but it is not. I want to see what you got to say.

[Broomhall]

elmer has always been that way with Duran. He builds up Duran's opponents to be much better than they were so that it makes Duran look better.
Suddenly we are supposed to be impressed if a guy (Lampkin) once beat the Australian champion.
We are supposed to be impressed with if someone was once the Puerto Rican champion. Of course these minor titles are never mentioned by him in any other context.
Buchanan's record is supposed to impress us. Doesn't matter that it wasn't against stellar competition.
Duran's losses? almost always an excuse. Of course when Duran wins, excuses for his opponents never get mentioned by him.
Opponents that Duran could have fought but didn't were all afraid of him. Whatever.
Sometimes his arguments are irrelevant; what does Ray Leonard have to do with who was the greatest lightweight of all time? He wants to count it because it is by far his biggest win. Of course he has excuses for Duran's loss to Leonard.
Duran was forever a lightweight. Doesn't matter if he was a welterweight or a jr middleweight. Of course, he doesn't do that with anyone else.
Sometimes his arguments don't make any sense at all. He often says that the first Duran-Leonard wasn't close; yet he himself once said that he only had Duran winning by 3 points.

In his latest post he says that Buchanan talent wise was as good as Montgomery, Beau Jack, and Angott. He also says no one is claiming that Buchanan is one of the top 100 of all time. Well, a lot of people do consider Montgomery, Jack, and Angott to be top 100.

First of all, I do not consider Bob Montgomery nor Sammy Angott in the top 100 p4p. Not a lot of people has ranked them that way. So that is A LIE. Those were the great Ike Williams opponents.

I have said before that the ONLY ONE, THE ONLY ONE that had a better career wins at lightweight better than the great Roberto Duran is Williams. Anybody else that you want to mention, are close or at par with Duran's opposition.

I do mention achievements of Duran's opponents at lightweight TO LET PEOPLE KNOW, OR TO LET PEOPLE LIKE YOU KNOW, THAT THESE GUYS WERE VERY GOOD. THEY WERE NOT TOMATO CANS like you and others are trying to imply. You and those other people got to do more research about opponents before calling them that they were nothing to be concerned or they were not special comments.


Boxing is too big for America...Boxing is a world wide sport. Not only Americans practice it, mister.

It seems to me that you have never seen Ken Buchanan fight. See his fights before Duran's. Maybe you will have a better view of him. Buchanan was an EXCEPTIONAL and EXCELLENT FIGHTER. He could match in skill with any other lightweight in history you put in front of him. He got CREDENTIALS for hall of fame. If Barry McGuigan is in the hall, then why not Esteban De Jesus? Esteban got credentials. He did way more than McGuigan. Why he is not in the hall, sir? How could that be, sir? Explain that to me.

De Jesus was Puerto Rico, NABF and WBC World Lightweight champion. How come that is not good enough? He and Buchanan were champions in all levels of competition at the pro level. He was an EXCELLENT FIGHTER. The ONLY ONE to fight Duran 3 times in Duran's prime. Still, he does not get any props...Well, I guess he was not American

Can someone read this and not tell me that is not true? Just look it up.

You make EXCUSES FOR the great Sugar Ray Leonard when he lost to Duran...Now you do not remember, Alp? How you said that he did not fight his fight? That is BALONEY. Duran whupped him good and that is all to it. A lightweight beat him. Leonard did CLUTCHED AND GRABBED...EVERYONE IN HERE KNOWS THAT. DeJesus and Lampkin went TOE TO TOE with Roberto. I give them more merit when they fought Duran than Leonard to tell you the truth. And Leonard still got his ass kicked with all that clutching and grabbing.

You was there at the times...You know that NOBODY WANTED A PIECE OF THE GREAT ROBERTO DURAN when he was the world lightweight champion. The great Alexis Arguello did not come up...Why? Danny Lopez? Did not come up. Alfredo Escalera? Did not come up. Antonio Cervantes? Did not even looked Duran's way when Duran called him many times. There are the tapes. You could look it up.

The great Carlos Ortiz does not have better opponents at lightweight than Duran.
Neither the great Benny Leonard, nor the great Tony Canzoneri, nor the great Henry Armstrong.

Neither the great Joe Brown, nor Beau Jack nor Sammy Angott had better wins of opponents than Duran at lightweight.

It may seem that is true, but it is not. I want to see what you got to say.

Elmer dont rise to the bait man, when these guys get sarcastic and rude it just shows they are not capable of having a discussion, or even listening to someone elses point of view.

[Ambling Alp II]

Not going to rehash all of elmer nonsense, but I will answer his statements about who certain lightweights beat

Benny Leonard beat Freddie Welsh, Johnny Kilbane, Lew Tendler, as well as several no-decision wins over Johnny Dundee.

Tony Canzoneri beat Kid Chocolate, Jack Kid Berg, Billy Petrolle, and Lou Ambers

Henry Armstrong beat Ambers, Baby Arizmendi, and Barney Ross when he weighed 133.5 and Ross weighed 142.

Carlos Ortiz beat Brown, Elorde, Ramos, and had a draw with Locche.

Beau Jack beat Montgomery, Armstrong, and had a draw with Angott.

Montgomery beat Williams and Beau Jack

Angott beat Ike Williams, Pep, Montgomery, and had the draw with Angott.

All of these guys also had several wins over very good fighters who no one ever talks about.

As for the stupid comments about being biased towards American fighters: I said before that I have Sanchez and my #3 featherweight of all time and Vincente Saldivar at #4. I have constantly mentioned while others overlook Saldivar.
I have listed Lennox Lewis in the top 10 heavyweights.
I have listed Carlos Monzon as my #1 middleweight.
Many times I have argued for non US fighters such as Bob Fitzsimmons, Tiger, Benitez, Arguello etc.

As for the comment that it is a "lie" when I said many people have fighters like Montgomery, Jack, and Angott in the their Top 100?

Well , in the Boxrec Hall of Fame, Montgomery, Beau Jack, and Angott all were among the first 100 fighters voted in. If they aren't Top 100, they are just outside of it. Neither Buchanan or DeJesus ever made it.

[elmersalsa]

Thank you broomhall. I see that you also got the point. Is it nobody or just Alp, that do not want to admit that NOBODY IN THE 70s , wanted a piece of Roberto. He did not need the American Media. The American Media needed him. He was a special fighter that Duran. There would never be another Hands of Stone.

As for Ambling Alp? What can I say? He just keep FLOPPING HIMSELF, for real.

It is CLEARLY UNDERSTOOD, THAT THE ONLY FIGHTER IN LIGHTWEIGHT HISTORY, THAT HAD THE BEST RECORD AGAINST TOP NOTCH LIGHTWEIGHTS, was the great Ike Williams...

NOBODY ELSE CAME CLOSE! THAT IS A FACT!

Can we say amen to this? Am I telling lies?

First, Alp attacks the great Roberto Duran quality of opposition at lightweight like if those guys were TOMATO CANS AND BUMS.
When you become champion in your own weight class of your own country, you are good.
When you become champion in your own weight class of the continent that you live, you are excellent.
When you become champion in your own weight class of the WHOLE ENTIRE WORLD, YOU ARE SUPER GOOD.

Ken Buchanan and Esteban De Jesus were champions AT ALL LEVELS OF COMPETITION AT THE PRO LEVEL. Ain't that a fact? Can we say amen to that? What the fvck Buchanan and De Jesus got to do get respect? Somebody that is not Ambling Alp answer me on that. What they got to do? They even fought the best fighters of their time. They did not ducked anybody. One of them fought Duran 3 times! I mean 3 times! That is not good enough?

But secondly, look at the HORRENDOUS FACTS, that my main man, Ambling Alp brings about other lightweight greats, that HE THINKS, that had better opposition than Duran at lightweight.

Duran, NEVER FOUGHT A GUY THAT WAS WASHED UP IN HIS PRIME.

Duran, NEVER FOUGHT A GUY THAT WERE IN THE LOWER WEIGHT CLASSIFICATIONS like featherweight and jr. lightweight. THOSE GUYS WERE TERRIFIED OF HIM...THAT IS A FACT!

Duran, HAD TO JUMP NOT ONE, TWO WEIGHT CLASSES TO GET SOME REAL TESTS, because the champions at 140lbs, LOOKED THE OTHER WAY.

Ain't that the truth? If someone thinks differently, reply.

Third, let us look at the quality of opposition of these lightweights that is not Williams.

1. Carlos Ortiz: Alp said that he beat the great Joe Brown, Flash Elorde, Sugar Ramos and Nicolino Locche. Let us give him Ismael Laguna and Kenny Lane. Well, it seems like great opposition, right? Well, Brown was a ring veteran of 16 years, and over more than 90 fights, that was ready to be taken of his title after the tough fight he made in 1961 vs Dave Charnley. Elorde was a FEATHERWEIGHT AT BEST...NOT A REAL LIGHTWEIGHT. Sugar Ramos? Seriously? Sugar Ramos? was DAMAGED GOODS after the great Vicente Saldivar at featherweight made SUGAR CANES out of his ass. He jumped to fight Carlos and he got whupped in two fights that were not even a match. Sugar was ALREADY WASHED UP. So the only people that Carlos fought that were real lightweights were Lane, Laguna and Locche. Now, what Kenny Lane did special? So Ortiz beat just two good lightweights in their primes. Maybe one, that was Laguna.


2. Beau Jack: Seriously, I got him ranked with the 100 greatest fighters p4p of all time. He was very good. Alp wants to say that Jack beat the great Henry Armstrong? Did he forgot that Armstrong was ALREADY DAMAGED GOODS after Fritzie Zivic gave him two good lickings in 1940 and 1941?...Do not make me laugh. The only one of the group, that he really beat, was Bob Montgomery. So he does not have more quality victories against lightweight hofs than Duran at lightweight, folks....THAT IS A LIE.

3. Sammy Angott: For real Ambling Alp? Are you serious? He had better quality of opponents wins than the Hands of Stone? He beat the great Willie Pep. You forgot that Pep was a featherweight? Duran NEVER HAD THE LUXURY OF A GUY FROM A SMALLER WEIGHT CLASS TO CHALLENGING. So the Pep victory does not count, sir. He only beat Williams and Montgomery. That is it.

4. Benny Leonard: So the great Benny had BETTER QUALITY WINS OF OPPOSITION THAN DURAN at lightweight? You mentioned that he beat Johnny Kilbane and Johnny Dundee? They were FEATHERWEIGHTS. Freddie Welsh and Lew Tendler? that is it? No, he did not had more quality wins. NO FEATHERWEIGHT CHALLENGED DURAN...YOU GOT THE POINT?

5. Tony Canzoneri: Are you serious, dog? You consider the great Kid Chocolate a lightweight? A genuine lightweight? Or was he a jr. lightweight at best? So he only beat 3 legitimate opponents at lightweight that were Billy Petrolle, Lou Ambers and the great Jack "Kid" Berg. That is only 3. Duran beat 4 champions at lightweight. Four LEGITIMATE LIGHTWEIGHTS: Ken Buchanan, Esteban De Jesus, Guts Ishimatsu and Saoul Mamby...How about that?

Angott nor Montgomery makes the top 100 p4p...That is a fact.

Now, if we put the great Ike Williams opposition/wins we got:
Beau Jack...Williams whupped him more than once
Bob Montgomery...Williams won the trilogy
Willie Joyce....Williams won one of 3 fights
Sammy Angott....Williams was tired of kicking his butt.
Juan Zurita....Williams went to Guadalajara, Mexico to take his title.
Enrique Bolanos....Williams whupped him 3 times!...Bolanos was an excellent lightweight contender.
Slugger White
Freddie Dawson
Eddie Giosa
Wesley Mouzon
Tippy Larkin
Johnny Bratton...Bratton was a lightweight at the time he fought Williams.

That is more than what your heart desire. I see Williams as the best when it comes in quality of opposition. He beat 3 hall of fame lightweights, possibly four. He is the ONLY ONE that I know, that was the one that got more quality victories at lightweight, than any other lightweight in history.

[Tomasino]

Calm down Elmer. For what it's worth I know Ken Buchannan personally my dad sparred with him often as young amateurs. I have huge respect for him as a man and as the greatest Scottish boxer of my lifetime.

I'm not going to cry and SHOUT on a boxing forum about him comparing him to Ambers, Armstrong, Leonard and Williams etc. I'm sure the man himself would find your posts absurd.

Just chill out man, most have Duran top 3 all time at the weight. He gets plenty respect. No need to go batshit crazy over him.

[palooka]

I agree Tom, the fellow is very persuasive but he seems to be nuts deep into it - it seems to mean more to him than maybe it should do.

[Tomasino]

I agree Tom, the fellow is very persuasive but he seems to be nuts deep into it - it seems to mean more to him than maybe it should do.

Even a minor disagreement provokes a tirade. Elmer is well versed in boxing and I often agree with his opinions but when he kicks off as if he is protecting a virgins chastity it's a bit much!

[Seamus]

Duran beat one Hall of Famer at LW, Leonard beat 6, and if DeJesus belongs in the HOF, Charley White is even more deserving. For superior competition at LW, Armstrong, Leonard, Ambers, and Ortiz are clearly ahead of Duran.

[elmersalsa]

No they are not, Seamus. No they are not. The MAJORITY OF THE LIGHTWEIGHT GREATS had FEATHERWEIGHT GREATS challenging them. That was not the case of the great Hands of Stone.

We wish that the great Alexis Arguello would have challenged him. Well, the evidence is there. When Duran moved up, Arguello also moved up. When that ever happened to the great Benny Leonard?

All these lightweights fought WASHED UP FEATHERWEIGHTS and jr. Lightweights. That was not the case of Duran.

You answer me Seamus these two questions:

When in Duran's prime, he fought a WASHED UP FIGHTER?
When in Duran's prime, a featherweight champ or jr lightweight champ challenged him?

[elmersalsa]

I agree Tom, the fellow is very persuasive but he seems to be nuts deep into it - it seems to mean more to him than maybe it should do.

Even a minor disagreement provokes a tirade. Elmer is well versed in boxing and I often agree with his opinions but when he kicks off as if he is protecting a virgins chastity it's a bit much!

That was funny. I will give you that one

[elmersalsa]

Calm down Elmer. For what it's worth I know Ken Buchannan personally my dad sparred with him often as young amateurs. I have huge respect for him as a man and as the greatest Scottish boxer of my lifetime.

I'm not going to cry and SHOUT on a boxing forum about him comparing him to Ambers, Armstrong, Leonard and Williams etc. I'm sure the man himself would find your posts absurd.

Just chill out man, most have Duran top 3 all time at the weight. He gets plenty respect. No need to go batshit crazy over him.

So you are saying that being champion at all levels of competition is not a great feat?
You think Ken Buchanan would find that absurd?
You do not think that Buchanan nor De Jesus got the talent to hang with any lightweibht in history?

I would like to meet Ken Buchanan. You was in front of a superb fighter.

[Tomasino]

Calm down Elmer. For what it's worth I know Ken Buchannan personally my dad sparred with him often as young amateurs. I have huge respect for him as a man and as the greatest Scottish boxer of my lifetime.

I'm not going to cry and SHOUT on a boxing forum about him comparing him to Ambers, Armstrong, Leonard and Williams etc. I'm sure the man himself would find your posts absurd.

Just chill out man, most have Duran top 3 all time at the weight. He gets plenty respect. No need to go batshit crazy over him.

So you are saying that being champion at all levels of competition is not a great feat?
You think Ken Buchanan would find that absurd?
You do not think that Buchanan nor De Jesus got the talent to hang with any lightweibht in history?

I would like to meet Ken Buchanan. You was in front of a superb fighter.

He's very approachable at the fight shows though I've not seen him in years. Elmer, he could hang, without a doubt he was a great fighter. He just doesn't have the overall accomplishment of the upper echelon greats although he could hang. It's the same with DeJesus. He doesn't have the overall record, the dominance although he's a great fighter. His left hook was amazing, so short and quick.

I honestly think Buchanans win over Laguna in the immense heat is the best win for a British fighter winning a championship.

I'm just saying, when you get on the horse about Duran you seem enraged. That's why you get guys like me, bored, trying to make fun of the angry posts to lighten it up a little. I sometimes post when am maybe upset at some shit in the real world and I put a crappy post up, regret it. But your consistently raging away about Duran and he's one of the most respected champions ever.

[HomicideHenry]

A rather dumb question am sure, but why was it that Buchanan never did get a rematch with Duran?

[Tomasino]

I'm not close to him I met him before a couple of my amateur fights at 12 yr old then when I was drinking at a couple of amateur shows. So who knows I know he wanted it. I actually think Duran should have been penalised or DQd but I don't shout about it because what's the point. Duran was overall the greater fighter. What a jab Buchanan had though, and supposedly a deadly right cross. He beat up much larger guys in sparring so I'm told and was never beat in a street fight. Just old wives tales probably but he was some machine for sure.

You should interview him Henry am sure he would be up for it and be a great guest on the show.

[Broomhall]

Thing is with Buchanan he had to do everything on the road, and he never got the chance to defend his title at home. You know fighting Duran in Scotland or even in England a completely different fight. Americans very seldom defend titles outside of the states and there is a reason for that.

I dont know why Buchanan never generated a big enough home following to get the money he would have got by going overseas.

[Seamus]

Elmer, outside of Buchanan, who's already in the HOF, you could make an argument (and lot's of fighters have much better arguments) for Esteban DeJesus. After that, no one is even close from Duran's LW reign. Thompson, Ortiz, and Fernandez have some good wins, but simply not enough over top class opposition to merit consideration. Ishimatsu was tough and better than his record, but not even remotely HOF material, Viruet had a good chin and heart, and Rojas wasn't bad. Lampkin was considered very promising at the time, but never came close to expectations, but if I'm wrong name me his biggest win. And as for Robertson, Takayama and Bizzaro, I think we know how good they were.

[BoxBuzz]

A bit off the subject perhaps, but I just watched the SRL HBO special where Ray shagged Duran down in Panama and asked him "What's up with No Mas". lol


I think Ray took it all way to serious, and really thinks he has Duran figured out.


Well, I'm trained to read body language, eyes, facial expressions etc and although my guess is that the cameraman/editor for that special also was trained to do so, (as it looked to me like the out takes on that were designed specifically to concur with Ray's assumptions). But I saw some body language that simply showed that Duran was a bit embarrassed at the loss, but nothing that made me believe he lied in that series of videos. He's always maintained it had to do with how he felt internally. And not about the "beating" he was taking that night.

In fact I"m more convinced after seeing it that Duran really did think he was about to take a brown dump on the canvas lol. And it just was not going to happen on his watch. So he let's the mystery prevail, and probably doesn't care what Ray thinks.

Duran never (before or after that event) showed lack of courage. But the idea of having a colon blow out and have the world view it, could humble any man. Especially a narcissist like Roberto.

I do think he was on his way to losing that fight. AND, had he not been such an ass hat and gained all that weight, and partied and gained that 30 pounds, I think we would have seen a full length fight. I can't say who would have won, but Duran was still pretty competitive in spite of all the challenges he stuck in his own way that night.

Sort of like Joe Frazier beating Ali, he wasn't able to come the follow up fight with the same spirit. But unlike Joe, he did rekindle that fire in the belly later on and came back to compete with some of his own best performances in the wake of that fight.


Duran was arguably the best lightweight of all time. I give Pernell a shot at beating him if he could somehow take him off focus. But I think Ray had help from Roberto's constitution in taking him off focus that night.

[Ambling Alp II]

Umm, ok....

Anyway, getting back to some of the lightweights major wins, thought I would add some in bold:

Benny Leonard beat Freddie Welsh, Johnny Kilbane, Lew Tendler, as well as several no-decision wins over Johnny Dundee. Jack Britton in a Newspaper Decision.

Tony Canzoneri beat Kid Chocolate, Jack Kid Berg, Billy Petrolle, and Lou Ambers and Al Singer

Henry Armstrong beat Ambers, Baby Arizmendi, and Barney Ross when he weighed 133.5 and Ross weighed 142.

Carlos Ortiz beat Brown, Elorde, Ramos, and had a draw with Locche. Kenny Lane, Duillo Loi

Beau Jack beat Montgomery, Armstrong, and had a draw with Angott. And Fritzie Zivic, Juan Zurita, Al Bummy Davis, and Tippy Larkin
Not sure why elmer doesn't Jack's win over Armstrong means little; Armstrong beat Larkin shortly before Jack beat Armstrong.

Montgomery beat Williams and Beau Jack and Lew Jenkins, and Slugger White

Angott beat Ike Williams, Pep, Montgomery, and had the draw with Jack. and Davey Day and Slugger White


Their victims lists are clearly superior to Duran's and light years better than Buchanan and DeJesus (outside of the Duran win).

(Not sure why elmer keeps bringing up Ike Williams. I have never disputed the idea that Williams fought tough competition.)

I counted some wins where the fighters were both a little over 135, but I figured elmer would be fine with that since he counted Duran's win over the legendary Mamby. elmer is always fair you know.

I think wins over smaller great fighters such as Pep, Kid Chocolate etc. is a lot more impressive than beating people like Guts Ishimatsu and Saoul Mamby.
Yes Duran beat Ishmatus and Mamby. So what? Should we list all the guys who beat Ishmatsu and Mamby?

Before elmer makes his next half-baked reply, I hope he looks up words like "lie" and "fact."

[Idisagree]

Is Elmer related to Duran? I love Duran but Elmer seems to take it to another level. Fact is Duran did not face great competition at lightweight. Ambling Alp II hit it right on the nose. Elmer doesn't want to accept reality.

[elmersalsa]

Umm, ok....

Anyway, getting back to some of the lightweights major wins, thought I would add some in bold:

Benny Leonard beat Freddie Welsh, Johnny Kilbane, Lew Tendler, as well as several no-decision wins over Johnny Dundee. Jack Britton in a Newspaper Decision.

Tony Canzoneri beat Kid Chocolate, Jack Kid Berg, Billy Petrolle, and Lou Ambers and Al Singer

Henry Armstrong beat Ambers, Baby Arizmendi, and Barney Ross when he weighed 133.5 and Ross weighed 142.

Carlos Ortiz beat Brown, Elorde, Ramos, and had a draw with Locche. Kenny Lane, Duillo Loi

Beau Jack beat Montgomery, Armstrong, and had a draw with Angott. And Fritzie Zivic, Juan Zurita, Al Bummy Davis, and Tippy Larkin
Not sure why elmer doesn't Jack's win over Armstrong means little; Armstrong beat Larkin shortly before Jack beat Armstrong.

Montgomery beat Williams and Beau Jack and Lew Jenkins, and Slugger White

Angott beat Ike Williams, Pep, Montgomery, and had the draw with Jack. and Davey Day and Slugger White


Their victims lists are clearly superior to Duran's and light years better than Buchanan and DeJesus (outside of the Duran win).

(Not sure why elmer keeps bringing up Ike Williams. I have never disputed the idea that Williams fought tough competition.)

I counted some wins where the fighters were both a little over 135, but I figured elmer would be fine with that since he counted Duran's win over the legendary Mamby. elmer is always fair you know.

I think wins over smaller great fighters such as Pep, Kid Chocolate etc. is a lot more impressive than beating people like Guts Ishimatsu and Saoul Mamby.
Yes Duran beat Ishmatus and Mamby. So what? Should we list all the guys who beat Ishmatsu and Mamby?

Before elmer makes his next half-baked reply, I hope he looks up words like "lie" and "fact."

Those guys did not beat better competition than the great Roberto Duran...They needed featherweights, jr. lightweights AND WASHED UP ALL TIME GREATS TO ENHANCE THEIR RECORDS. Put the great Alexis Arguello in the list of Duran's victims INSTEAD of Vilomar Fernandez and IT WILL BLOW EVERYBODY ELSE'S.

Yeah, they got wins over overweight featherweights. Who cannot do that? Why Danny Lopez nor Alfredo Escalera challenged Duran? Why Antonio Cervantes looked the other way?

It is funny, you want to mention the great Carlos Ortiz wins when he beat Duilio Loi at 140lbs for the world jr. welter title and put it as a lightweight match

Then, you want to put FEATHERWEIGHTS like Sugar Ramos, who clearly was DAMAGED GOODS after the great Vicente Saldivar fight. The great Joe Brown was ALREADY TO BE TAKEN. He had over 16 years of a boxing career and more than 90 fights at least. Of course, you could have a list of great fighters in your ledger when they were SMALLER than you AND WASHED UP...THAT WAS NOT THE CASE WITH DURAN.

We wish that the great Alexis Arguello would have challenged him. Well, the evidence is there. When Duran moved up, Arguello also moved up. When that ever happened to the great Benny Leonard?

All these lightweights fought WASHED UP FEATHERWEIGHTS and jr. Lightweights. That was not the case of Duran.

You answer me Seamus these two questions:

When in Duran's prime, he fought a WASHED UP FIGHTER?
When in Duran's prime, a featherweight champ or jr lightweight champ challenged him?

Answer: HE COULD NOT ANSWER ME!!!

The great Tony Canzoneri beat a overweight featherweight in the great Kid Chocolate. He was jr. lightweight at best.

The great Henry Armstrong beat Baby Arizmendi at featherweight clashes...You want to put them in the lightweight fights, ooooh of course. The fight with the great Barney Ross was for the world welterweight title.

Some in here will agree with me. Some would not. But do not tell me that Duran did not fight great opposition at lightweight. It was not much different than the guys before him. They fought guys that were LOWER IN WEIGHT AND WASHED UP. Duran NEVER HAD THAT LUXURY. AM I RIGHT?

[elmersalsa]

Is Elmer related to Duran? I love Duran but Elmer seems to take it to another level. Fact is Duran did not face great competition at lightweight. Ambling Alp II hit it right on the nose. Elmer doesn't want to accept reality.

You must be out of your mind when you say that the great Roberto Duran did not face great competition at lightweight.

Why you do not say that featherweight greats and washed up legends did not face Duran?

Why do not you accept that reality?

I ask you the same question I asked Seamus:

When Did Duran fought a guy in a lower weight class like featherweight or jr. lightweight?
When did Duran fight a WASHED UP great fighter when Duran was in his prime?

Give me the answer, Idisagree.

[Tomasino]

Maybe. I think if it was in person and you were shouting and sweating I'd probably say "yes, Elmer, your are right, now let go of my hand your squeezing the life out of it and stop looking at me that way" or something like that.

[Ambling Alp II]

That is just how he is. He is actually a nice guy most of the time, he just goes way overboard when it comes to boxers that he likes: they always have excuses (their opponents never do) for losses, and he goes way overboard with their wins.
If he doesn't like a guy, then of course that guy is overrated.

The Puerto Rican championship, Australian, NABF titles means a lot to elmer when it pertains to a fighter he likes. Otherwise it never gets mentioned for any other fighter.
Never occurs to him that he does this; never occurs to him that that you can be the Puerto Rican champion and not be one of the best 50 fighters in your weight class.

Never occurs to him that for a lightweight beating a great featherweight like say Willie Pep or Kid Chocolate is actually more impressive than somebody like Guts Ishimatu.