Tuan_Jim wrote:HomicideHenry wrote:
Really boxing as we know it today began in 1865... that's over 150 years of boxing... alot of great heavyweights have come down the pipe... I interviewed Shavers on three occasions... and he said something along the lines that he felt he could of knocked out the Klitschko's in two-three rounds... I pointed out to him, "Earnie, you lost to Ron Stander on a knockout," and he still stuck to his guns.
And Wladimir has been down 12 or 15 times, KOd thrice, by men whose power & execution does not compare to Earnie Shavers. To bring up a loss to Ron Stander with a man who bombed Norton and Ellis and near killed Ali and Holmes really does make you sound like an imbecile.
Outside of dropping Holmes in the rematch... who was all in his prime... Shavers' best moments came against men who were at the end of the line, or near the end of the line in their careers. I really do like Earnie, don't get me wrong, he was seldom ever in a dull contest--- but the majority of his victories came against unknowns and nonentities in boxing, and his best moments came against old men. I'm proud to say Shavers came from my home state of Ohio, and I've been around Warren (his home town) and its a real beautiful area in the state. To think that some country bumpkin from the sticks, managed to do what he did is something of a miracle, thank Jesus.
But, that still doesnt take away from Earnie's faults--- and his losses (in his prime or near prime). Mind you, he lost in his prime to Bernardo Mercado (KO7), the unheralded Bob Stallings (L10), and when he was 12-1 (12) as a pro he lost by kayo to Ron Stander (who was 9-0) in the 5th round. Alot of his wins were against guys like Charley Polite (14-20-3), Richard Pittman (0-15-2), Chuck Leslie (22-21-5), Leon Shaw (6-7-1), and Tommy Howard (2-17-2). Those guys I listed, were across the board in his career--- so just how "great" was he, when its obvious that the kayo ratio was inflated, because he was fed alot of hand picked dead men, even when he was facing guys like Lyle and Quarry.
Mind you, the one man, in my estimation that Shavers looked great against was Holmes. However, in their first encounter, Shavers lost the decision by a wide, wide margin (120-108). In the rematch, it was more of the same, until Holmes got caught and was dropped. The first six rounds of that rematch was all Holmes... and after being dropped, from the eighth round till its conclusion in the eleventh it was all Holmes again. Not to knock Shavers, I cant think of anyone else who was able to drop a prime Holmes--- but that moment is a bit enlarged, more so than it probably should be.
As for the "wins" or performances over Norton, Ali, Ellis, etc. let's break it all down okay?
Ken Norton, before facing Shavers, had lost to Holmes. After losing to Holmes, he won a kayo over a unknown named Randy Stephens. He then was kayoed by Shavers. After Shavers, he managed a draw against tough, durable (but limited) Scott LeDoux. After LeDoux, he won a controversial split decision over Randall Tex Cobb. After Cobb, he was almost killed by Gerry Cooney. I think it's the consensus of most on the forum that Norton (after Holmes) was nowhere near the same man he once was. So the "win" for Shavers, is a bit askewed.
Muhammad Ali, before facing Shavers, was doing the "Bum of the Month" worldwide international tour. He defeated unknown, unheralded Coopman. He won a highly controversial decision over the little regarded Jimmy Young, a fight that historians say was clearly a gift decision. He defeated European champion Dunn. He won a highly controversial decision over Ken Norton (most today believe Norton won this contest). He then took on the unknown, unheralded, and undeserving challenger Alfredo Evangelista, in a fight that Howard Cosell (Ali's #1 fan) said was the worst fight of all time. Then came Shavers... and Earnie blew it, missed his big chance in the second round... Much like the Holmes fight, Shavers had one magic moment, but otherwise was out thought, out fought, out boxed, etc. Of course, after Shavers came the Spinks bouts (who only had 7 fights to his credit when he fought Ali). So the performance, also, must be taken into account as being a bit overblown.
Jimmy Ellis, before facing Shavers, fought a slew of tomato cans. Rico Brooks (twice), Joe Harris, Charlie Harris, Bob Felstein, Harold Carter, Ollie Wilson, and Dick Gosha (to be exact). AFTER facing Shavers, Ellis went 2-4-1 against the likes of Larry Middleton, Boone Kirkman, Ron Lyle, Joe Frazier, and Joe Bugner. While that seems not so bad a losing record--- consider this, most insiders at the time considered Ellis "washed up" at the time of the Kirkman fight. I'm not trying to be a dick, honestly, but in the "Foreman/Frazier" thread thats been hotly debated the passed two weeks on this forum--- its been pretty much the consensus of the forum that by the time Ellis fought Frazier, both he and Smokin' Joe were well passed it as fighters. After all, in their primes, Frazier stopped Ellis in four rounds. In the rematch, it took Frazier nine grueling rounds to put him away. Again--- the importance of this victory, must be in question.
You also have to figure Shavers was also defeated in one round to Jerry Quarry*, and in five rounds to Ron Lyle. He only managed a draw against a near-prime Jimmy Young--- and it may be THAT fight, in which his biggest accomplishment as a fighter lies. Not that its a disgrace to lose to such men--- not in the least bit--- hell, Lyle almost kayoed Foreman and he was ahead on the cards when he fought Ali. Damned good fighters these men were; however, Shavers still lost to these men and whatever wins and performances he had are to be judged. A loss is still a loss, regardless of performance--- otherwise, we'd be talking about how destructive and awesome Bob Satterfield is, more so than Shavers.
*At the time of the Shavers fight, it was the consensus of the media that Quarry was on the way down in his career. This wasn't the first time, however, that Quarry had been written off. When he lost unexpectedly (by kayo) to Chuvalo he was considered cannon fodder. To prove he wasn't some bum, he took on the highly touted Mac Foster, and obliterated him. He was back in the running, and then he lost to Ali. Again, he was written off. He then went over to England as an underdog and annihilated Jack Boddell in one round--- and he was back in the game. He then, of course, lost the rematch to Ali--- and was considered just a fringe contender, nothing more, and BLAM he destroys Shavers. The ultimate come back kid. 