Wladimir Klitschko v Larry Holmes in all-time HW rankings

[Ezzard]

I'd back all of them against David Bey...most of them against Bruno, Smith and Weaver... Then 50-50 with Coetzee, Berbick, Thomas...

This could be a separate thread...although judging by the crazy results of this poll, a lot of people might actually agree with you.

By the way do you still think Murray will give Golovkin a good fight?

I'm trying to remember Murray ever going down or looking seriously hurt? But I've only seen about 4 fights... I think he'll be a good test. My thinking is Golovkin can't really be as good as he looks. Murray got a draw with Sturm and could have easily got the decision against Martinez. He seems like a durable fighter who won't be intimidated. Be impressive if he gets blown away early. I expect GGG on points or a late stoppage.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Holmes fought better men simple as - though I must say, I find it hard to envisage Wlad losing to Spinks.

By the same token, I find it hard to envisage Holmes losing to Purity, Sanders, or Brewster.

Quite true.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Heights and weights, especially at heavy, always strike me as being distorted thesedays, with people adding more. I've been in the same room as David Haye before and I would be amazed if he is a genuine 6'3

From what I have seen, Holmes is a bigger man than Haye. Take Haye out the gym and off the 250+ grams of protein everyday and he would shrink back to 14st in next to no time. Holmes seems a naturally big man.

Exactly, with Holmes it was his natural size, he was no weight lifting body beautiful - but he was a big framed man - if you got him on the kind of regime Wlad is on, he'd probably be 230 lbs easy, but then he would also have been nowhere near as fluid and flexible.

I've met Haye too, and he doesn't look like a proper heavyweight, he's a tall, lean rangy kind of guy, if you took him out of the gym, he'd look like a cruiserweight in no time.

Fact is, Holmes hit hard enough to shake Wlad to his boots, just ask Gerry Cooney - who could take a shot alright and was a genuinely big man.

Jesus, just watched that fight, what a tough S.O.B Cooney was, he took one hell of a lot of shots from Holmes that night, and had to be saved from himself. Holmes to absorbed some terrific left hooks from Cooney, who was a phenomenal puncher.

[chucktaylor]

fergusg, who did you vote for?

[chucktaylor]

fergusg, who did you vote for?

Holmes, but people talk nonsense and embellish his ability.

The "greater" fighter was Holmes, so he should be rated higher, but had both men shared the ring, then Klitschko would have emerged victorious.

Cool. Holmes is clearly the more accomplished one, so it's good that you recognize that (unlike the majority of voters).

[Ezzard]

Early in his career Larry was worried about his size. He wanted to put on weight. Worried he wouldn't be big enough to be a heavy!?!?

Later in his career he was nicknamed the pear because of his un-athletic look and spare tyre.

True quality though.

[cjdragon]

fergusg, who did you vote for?

Holmes, but people talk nonsense and embellish his ability.

The "greater" fighter was Holmes, so he should be rated higher, but had both men shared the ring, then Klitschko would have emerged victorious.

Nostalgia tends to do that.
I'm still awaiting my dad's opinion of some of the early-mid 80's fighters, compared to or vs. today's fighters, since he was a huge boxing fanatic back in the day (less so now).
All I can do is watch the fights on youtube so many years later, compare records, etc.

I'm not sure why people become so disrespectful during discussions like these (not you Fergusg)...boxing is for our entertainment and it should be fun to have talks like these.
Oh well.

[The Great John L]

Early in his career Larry was worried about his size. He wanted to put on weight. Worried he wouldn't be big enough to be a heavy!?!?

Later in his career he was nicknamed the pear because of his un-athletic look and spare tyre.

True quality though.

I saw him when he was dropped by Isaacs early in his career and he looked pretty thin. Of course he always had wide hips even when he was fighting at about 200.

[lillywhite14]

Heights and weights, especially at heavy, always strike me as being distorted thesedays, with people adding more. I've been in the same room as David Haye before and I would be amazed if he is a genuine 6'3

From what I have seen, Holmes is a bigger man than Haye. Take Haye out the gym and off the 250+ grams of protein everyday and he would shrink back to 14st in next to no time. Holmes seems a naturally big man.

I can only supply facts. If you choose to ignore them, then that's your prerogative.

[dempseyfire]

What? Ever heard of Gerry Cooney? Bonecrusher Smith?

Pay attention to what I've actually written.. I already mentioned James 'Bonecrusher' Smith... and a prime version of Gerry Cooney was typically more than 20lbs lighter than Wladimir Klitschko.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

I don’t usually like to deal with emotion, gut instinct or pure guesswork… so let me enlighten you with some facts…

Cooney weighed 225-230 in his mid-late 20s. Wlad weighed 235-240 that same age. Stop exaggerating his size.

We’re talking about the current version of Wladimir Klitschko… and his average weight over the last five fights has been 246.15lbs. The version of Gerry Cooney that Larry Holmes fought weighed only 225.5lbs.

Larry Holmes’ average weight for his title winning fights was 216.35lbs, with the average opponent for those fights weighing 221.3lbs… a figure that is grossly distorted by the flabby Leroy Jones, David Bey & Randall Cobb. The average weight of a Larry Holmes opponent during his successful world title fights, excluding those three behemoths, was 216lbs.

Holmes was far bigger than Haye and Ibragimov who scared Wlad so much he had to win a staring contest with each over 12 rounds, or Povetkin who Wlad grabbed every 10 seconds. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Larry wasn’t far bigger than David Haye, because the Haymaker’s average weight for his heavyweight bouts was 214.6lbs, which is a mere 1.75lbs lighter Holmes’ average. Interestingly, the average weight of a heavyweight David Haye opponent was 249.6lbs, which is much much heavier than The Easton Assassin's average opponent weight.

The interesting thing about David Haye… even though he’s the same height and about the same weight as Larry Holmes, he’s much more muscular and ripped, which means he should be regarded as the bigger man than the American legend.

Sultan Ibragimov’s average weight for all 24 of his contests was 217.9lbs, which is heavier than Larry Holmes’ average. The Russian’s average weight for his last five contests was 222.35lbs, which is six pounds greater than the The Easton Assassin’s average throughout his successful title contests.

Alexander Povetkin is typically ten pounds heavier than Larry Holmes (i.e. average weight for his last five fights was 226.5lbs).

The height differential between Haye, Ibragimov, Povetkin and Holmes is only an inch, which should be considered as trivial.

You’ve made the following claim about me:

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Now that I’ve given you the facts… I dare you to prove me wrong!

Cooney-I said around the same age . . can you read? People age as they get older; no doubt if Cooney had kept consistently fighting he'd have gone into the 230s-40s in his mid-late 30s as well.

Weights-The likes of Ibragimov and Povetkin are pillsberry doughboys even in the 2teens, let alone 220s. Weight means jack sh^& since the majority of HWs nowadays are overweight. A guy like Trevor Berbick trained DOWN to 220 and was ripped as sh^&. The likes of Haye, Chagaev, Ibragimov are natural cruisers who actually eat extra to put on pounds. Holmes's body frame alone would dwarf that of any of those guys. Just looking at height and weight stats says nothing about body size.

[jezzamundo]

'Far' bigger might be an exaggeration, but Holmes was undoubtedly a bigger guy than Haye, Ibragimov and Povetkin. The fact that Haye looks ripped at 215lb and Holmes didn't, it evidence that Holmes is the naturally bigger guy. Ibragimov and Povetkin are both natural cruiserweights who look chubby when fighting at weights that Holmes looked lean. Early in his title reign, Holmes probably could have drained to make 200lb, so I guess it's fair that to say that they are similar in size, though Holmes is the taller with longer reach and larger frame.

Height and weight are a part of size, but certainly not all of it. George Foreman was 6'3 1/2 and in his prime he generally weighed 215-225lb - which is light and not particularly tall by today's standards, but just looking at him, he was clearly a BIG man, FAR bigger than the likes of Povetkin who is generally a few lb heavier and only 1 1/2 inches shorter. Similarly, Cooney and Wlad are very similar in size, Wlad is just an inch taller and is only heavier because he is more muscle-bound, they'd have very similar frames.

I think that Holmes vs Wlad would be an intriguing fight that either could win, the battle of the jabs alone would have been great. Wlad has much more power, Holmes has a good edge in speed, Holmes has a much better chin, Wlad would be the stronger in clinches, Holmes has much better stamina and higher workrate, though that would likely be somewhat blunted in the face of Wlad's size and power.

[Tomasino]

Heavyweights in Holmes day trained to be as light as possible, Larry was a huge guy when he got older and stopped training. His bone structure and hands would make Haye look like, ahem, a cruiser weight. Haye trains to put on weight and most likely maintains it with some 'supplements' that weren't around in Holmes day. I think when Holyfield adopted this approach he was flat for a lot of fights. He looked massive though.

[Freedom2013]

I see Klitschko is leading in the poll.

It's good to see that more and more people these days are getting past their old nationalistic and racial prejudices and giving Wladimir fair credit for his accomplishments.

[Ezzard]

Early in his career Larry was worried about his size. He wanted to put on weight. Worried he wouldn't be big enough to be a heavy!?!?

Later in his career he was nicknamed the pear because of his un-athletic look and spare tyre.

True quality though.

I saw him when he was dropped by Isaacs early in his career and he looked pretty thin. Of course he always had wide hips even when he was fighting at about 200.

Odd shape for sure. How did he take that KD? What do you remember of it?

[Ezzard]

Heavyweights in Holmes day trained to be as light as possible

Not sure this is right. Think you're getting confused with 1950s HWs

[Ricky_]

Some of the stuff I read on this forum is pure fiction!

I hope that reading through some of this nonsense doesn't have an adverse effect on my intelligence quotent!

You're making a damn full of yourself. That's twice now, on a boxing forum, in a discussion about size, you've spoke about height. Larry Holmes is much bigger than David Haye, now do yourself a favour and stop talking about size

[The Great John L]

Early in his career Larry was worried about his size. He wanted to put on weight. Worried he wouldn't be big enough to be a heavy!?!?

Later in his career he was nicknamed the pear because of his un-athletic look and spare tyre.

True quality though.

I saw him when he was dropped by Isaacs early in his career and he looked pretty thin. Of course he always had wide hips even when he was fighting at about 200.

Odd shape for sure. How did he take that KD? What do you remember of it?

I think it was a LH that he got caught with and it was a solid shot. He went down quickly, but was also up pretty quick and didn't appear to be too hurt. As I recall he KOd Issacs the next round with a straight right and Isaacs stayed down for quite a while. Holmes got pretty good press in the local media leading up to the fight as he was clearly being showcased.

Holmes had pretty amazing recuperative ability that he showed a few other times in his career.

[Ricky_]

Some of the stuff I read on this forum is pure fiction!

I hope that reading through some of this nonsense doesn't have an adverse effect on my intelligence quotent!

You're making a damn full of yourself. That's twice now, on a boxing forum, in a discussion about size, you've spoke about height. Larry Holmes is much bigger than David Haye, now do yourself a favour and stop talking about size

In what way is Larry Holmes “much bigger” than David Haye when they’re the same height and weight, coupled with the fact that the Haymaker is much more ripped and heavily-muscled?

If you’re claiming that height and weight are irrelevant, in what way do you measure “size”?

Frame, skeleton, body shape, muscularity & conditioning. It's not difficult to see that Haye & Pacquiao are blown up to fight at HW & WW, while Holmes is there naturally and Bradley is a drainer.

[tiny_acres]

I see Klitschko is leading in the poll.

It's good to see that more and more people these days are getting past their old nationalistic and racial prejudices and giving Wladimir fair credit for his accomplishments.

Why does everything come to race with some posters.I am a Texan redneck middle aged white male,and
I could care less what color a fighter is.The majority of posters here feel the same way I do.
Holmes is the greater heavyweight over Wlad.Nothing to do with race.Lewis is better than Wlad no race no national pride.
IT IS WHAT IT IS

[jezzamundo]

Some of the stuff I read on this forum is pure fiction!

I hope that reading through some of this nonsense doesn't have an adverse effect on my intelligence quotent!

You're making a damn full of yourself. That's twice now, on a boxing forum, in a discussion about size, you've spoke about height. Larry Holmes is much bigger than David Haye, now do yourself a favour and stop talking about size

In what way is Larry Holmes “much bigger” than David Haye when they’re the same height and weight, coupled with the fact that the Haymaker is much more ripped and heavily-muscled?

If you’re claiming that height and weight are irrelevant, in what way do you measure “size”?

The fact that Haye is much more ripped and heavily-muscled while weighing the same as a prime Holmes who looked lean but not particularly muscular is proof that Holmes is the naturally bigger man, surely this isn't hard to understand? If Holmes bulked up to the extent of Haye, he would likely weigh 230lb plus. If Haye laid off the weights and protein he'd be sub 200lb.

[Ezzard]

I think it was a LH that he got caught with and it was a solid shot. He went down quickly, but was also up pretty quick and didn't appear to be too hurt. As I recall he KOd Issacs the next round with a straight right and Isaacs stayed down for quite a while. Holmes got pretty good press in the local media leading up to the fight as he was clearly being showcased.

Holmes had pretty amazing recuperative ability that he showed a few other times in his career.

He definitely did.

Was Tyson the last guy to floor him?

[tiny_acres]

I think it was a LH that he got caught with and it was a solid shot. He went down quickly, but was also up pretty quick and didn't appear to be too hurt. As I recall he KOd Issacs the next round with a straight right and Isaacs stayed down for quite a while. Holmes got pretty good press in the local media leading up to the fight as he was clearly being showcased.

Holmes had pretty amazing recuperative ability that he showed a few other times in his career.

He definitely did.

Was Tyson the last guy to floor him?

No Butterbean Erick Esch knocked Larry down when Larry was 196 years old.

[Ezzard]

Of course...

I think Larry's recuperative powers are the biggest difference between him and Wlad.

[tiny_acres]

Of course...

I think Larry's recuperative powers are the biggest difference between him and Wlad.

I agree.I remember when Shavers floored him.Not many men in history would of gotten up
after that.

[The Great John L]

Of course...

I think Larry's recuperative powers are the biggest difference between him and Wlad.

I agree.I remember when Shavers floored him.Not many men in history would of gotten up
after that.

That shot probably would have killed just about anybody else.