Where do you rank Wladimir Klitschko among the ATG HWs?

[SNG]

Can't argue with that, Vitali's opposition has been very poor since coming out of retirement. I wish Wlad had fought Valuev, it would have been very interesting seeing him give up his natural advantages in size and weight.

[Bobbyptsd]

Can't argue with that, Vitali's opposition has been very poor since coming out of retirement. I wish Wlad had fought Valuev, it would have been very interesting seeing him give up his natural advantages in size and weight.

I can't think of many more one-sided fights than that would have been.

[Horse]

I can't think of many more one-sided fights than that would have been.

He'd do a lot better than plums like Leapai.

Valuev is an underrated fighter.

[Bobbyptsd]

I can't think of many more one-sided fights than that would have been.

He'd do a lot better than plums like Leapai.

Valuev is an underrated fighter.

He wouldn't have gotten stopped, but it would have looked like Wlad fighting a heavy bag. He is significantly faster, has a much harder and more accurate jab, and hits harder. He's also not exactly a bad boxer himself.

Wlad would have won a complete landslide. I'm puzzled when anyone brings Valuev up in this type of context. The guy had fights he probably should have lost with Ruiz, Holyfield, and Larry Donald, aside from actually losing to Haye and Chagaev. Bergeron was competitive with him at times FFS.

[Horse]

He wouldn't have gotten stopped, but it would have looked like Wlad fighting a heavy bag. He is significantly faster, has a much harder and more accurate jab, and hits harder. He's also not exactly a bad boxer himself.

Wlad would have won a complete landslide. I'm puzzled when anyone brings Valuev up in this type of context. The guy had fights he probably should have lost with Ruiz, Holyfield, and Larry Donald, aside from actually losing to Haye and Chagaev. Bergeron was competitive with him at times FFS.

Some people thought he beat Haye and didn't think he deserved to lose against Ruiz or the rest.

Valuev would have been an interesting opponent for Wlad and would be amongst his best wins.

[Horse]

Why didn't Wlad fight Tyson or Holyfield? They were washed up, but he really should have taken advantage of them while he had the chance. Great names to have on his record.

I'd have battered Bowe as well if I was Wlad.

[Bobbyptsd]

He wouldn't have gotten stopped, but it would have looked like Wlad fighting a heavy bag. He is significantly faster, has a much harder and more accurate jab, and hits harder. He's also not exactly a bad boxer himself.

Wlad would have won a complete landslide. I'm puzzled when anyone brings Valuev up in this type of context. The guy had fights he probably should have lost with Ruiz, Holyfield, and Larry Donald, aside from actually losing to Haye and Chagaev. Bergeron was competitive with him at times FFS.

Some people thought he beat Haye and didn't think he deserved to lose against Ruiz or the rest.

Valuev would have been an interesting opponent for Wlad and would be amongst his best wins.

You're a funny guy sometimes, Horse, I'll give you that.

Many words might come to mind thinking of that fight. "Interesting" and "Best" are not two of them.

And he beat Chagaev and Haye anyway, so........

[Tomasino]

He wouldn't have gotten stopped, but it would have looked like Wlad fighting a heavy bag. He is significantly faster, has a much harder and more accurate jab, and hits harder. He's also not exactly a bad boxer himself.

Wlad would have won a complete landslide. I'm puzzled when anyone brings Valuev up in this type of context. The guy had fights he probably should have lost with Ruiz, Holyfield, and Larry Donald, aside from actually losing to Haye and Chagaev. Bergeron was competitive with him at times FFS.

Some people thought he beat Haye and didn't think he deserved to lose against Ruiz or the rest.

Valuev would have been an interesting opponent for Wlad and would be amongst his best wins.

I thought he won narrowly against Haye, Wlad may have tired out hitting him and holding a bigger stronger fighter.

[Bobbyptsd]

I don't think Valuev could even take advantage of Wlad tiring like Brewster did.

[SNG]

I think Wlad would win, but it would have been interesting to see him fight a bigger guy, Wlad's jab would be the key but that jab wouldn't be as affective as it is against much smaller men. Also, with being used to fighting smaller men it would have been interesting to see how he adjusted to throwing his punches at a taller target. You can gloss over Valuev, but he was a champion during his reign who he didn't fight, one who offered a vey different challenge, why wouldn't you as a boxing fan want to see that?

[Bobbyptsd]

I think Wlad would win, but it would have been interesting to see him fight a bigger guy, Wlad's jab would be the key but that jab wouldn't be as affective as it is against much smaller men. Also, with being used to fighting smaller men it would have been interesting to see how he adjusted to throwing his punches at a taller target. You can gloss over Valuev, but he was a champion during his reign who he didn't fight, one who offered a vey different challenge, why wouldn't you as a boxing fan want to see that?

Destroyer of Owen Beck and Jean-Francois Bergeron. You can call it glossing over if you want. I don't think he was that good. His freakish size is the only reason we are talking about him.

And as to the interest factor, some people would think it might be interesting, before the first bell rang.

[Horse]

Who are the best opponents that Wlad didn't fight over the last 10 years that are no longer available or good?

1. Vitali Klitschko
2. Nikolay Valuev
3. Evander Holyfield
4. Mike Tyson
5. Corrie Sanders
6. John Ruiz
7. James Toney
8. Ross Puritty
9. Oleg Maskaev
10. Andrew Golota

11. Tomasz Adamek
12. Shannon Briggs
13. Riddick Bowe
14. Robert Helenius
15. Siarhei Liakhovich


Wlad hasn't missed out on much, but he should have avenged his losses, even if everyone knew he was just fighting shells of their former selves just for revenge. Valuev, Holyfield, Tyson, Ruiz & Toney would all be good on his record as well.

How does that compare to Lewis's list of unfought opponents over the last 10 years of his career?

[zorndeslammes]

Bobby said what I was going to re: Valuev. Actually watching his fights, I can't imagine anyone thinking he was underrated. Completely the opposite.

The obvious name of a guy Wladimir should have fought is Lennox Lewis, and that didn't happen because he got laid down by Corrie Sanders. Most anyone else wouldn't have added jack squat to his resume or historical placement. I don't think even avenging the Purrity or Sanders losses would have done much since those were people he was always supposed to beat in the first place.

[JCS]

Been stewing on this...

IMO of course..

There are four you absolutely can't argue Wladimir over..
Ali, Louis, Holmes, Marciano

The following I am pretty confident in giving the nod over Wladimir
Lewis, Liston, Foreman

Wladimir is in the next bunch...
Patterson, Holyfield, Tyson, Frazier, Dempsey, Johnson and some others..

It's tough to separate him from them without some decent research... so I'm calling him "Borderline Top 10" for me.


Note: I am NOT considering imaginary 1-on-1s with Wladimir here. This is about quality of ledger w/ consideration to divisional depth.

You can't really penalize him for being in a weakish era... but he's got a ceiling due to the lack of opportunity... though he's pretty much up maxed out his potential by being so dominant.

[Freedom2013]

The following I am pretty confident in giving the nod over Wladimir
Lewis, Liston, Foreman

Exactly how do you figure Liston is ahead of Wladimir?

He was 2-2 in world title fights, stopped in the two losses. His claim to fame: two wins over the chinny Patterson and being KOed by a phantom punch.

Wladimir, the second-longest HW titleholder of all time, has accomplished FAR more.

Of course, some people will always dismiss Wlad's opposition to discredit him, but you can do that to any boxer. The truth is, the HWs are bigger and stronger today than they ever were.

[Bard of Boxrec]

The truth is, the HWs are bigger and stronger today than they ever were.

FALSEHOOD

[JCS]

The following I am pretty confident in giving the nod over Wladimir
Lewis, Liston, Foreman

Exactly how do you figure Liston is ahead of Wladimir?

He was 2-2 in world title fights, stopped in the two losses. His claim to fame: two wins over the chinny Patterson and being KOed by a phantom punch.

Wladimir, the second-longest HW titleholder of all time, has accomplished FAR more.

Of course, some people will always dismiss Wlad's opposition to discredit him, but you can do that to any boxer. The truth is, the HWs are bigger and stronger today than they ever were.

Yes, Wlad accomplished far more.. but HW was far deeper in Liston's era. Honestly it was close for me.. but it is what it is. Sorry if you think I'm discrediting your hero.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

The truth is, the HWs are bigger and stronger today than they ever were.

FALSEHOOD

No it isn't - it is a documeted fact.

A 17 stone fighter even as late as 1983 was basically unheard of.

Someone like Herbie Hide who is 6ft 1ins and 15 stone would have been considered an average sized heavyweight up until the early 1980's - now he is seen as a small heavyweight.

Back in the 1960's - Sonny Liston was seen as a giant - his statistics - 6ft 1ins and 15 and a half stone - more or less the same size as Herbie Hide.

[KBB]

Bring 100 avarge joe who never watch boxing. .....show them last ten wlad vs last ten mayweather fight .....i bet 80% say wlad fight

Afro americans and hispanics hate any overseas fighters ....simple

BS, speak for yourself; I'm sure Hispanics and African Americans (not AFRO) will tell you that you do not represent either of their races. Wlad probably belongs in the Top 20 based on what he did in his era but if one was comparing the type of comp he beat vs the others who are rated higher then some people would probably rate him less than that.

[jamesmcdonnell]

The truth is, the HWs are bigger and stronger today than they ever were.

FALSEHOOD

No it isn't - it is a documeted fact.

A 17 stone fighter even as late as 1983 was basically unheard of.

Someone like Herbie Hide who is 6ft 1ins and 15 stone would have been considered an average sized heavyweight up until the early 1980's - now he is seen as a small heavyweight.

Back in the 1960's - Sonny Liston was seen as a giant - his statistics - 6ft 1ins and 15 and a half stone - more or less the same size as Herbie Hide.

And they are stronger in what way - you do realise that size doesn't dicate how hard you punch? Bigger does not necessarily equal harder puncher. Shavers wasn't anywhere near as big as Wlad, but hit every bit as hard, if not harder.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Wlad has had a better career, but Vitali would beat him up if they fought. Wlad could outbox him in spots, but he couldn't control range like he usually does against a bigger, stronger man with better stamina who could rely on his chin holding up. Vitali would overwhelm Wlad with physical strength and volume punching and certainly had enough power to hurt him.

I think Wlad would beat Vitali H2H. I think Vitali is overrated in H2H considerations.

If he was so good then why was his opposition so underwhelming? I'll always give the benefit of the doubt to the fighter who beat the better opposition.

A young and inexperienced Vitali Klitschko had a career defining fight that was taken on short notice, against Lennox Lewis, which he was leading on the scorecards until the cut forced the stoppage.

Vitali Klitschko learned from his defeat and appeared to improve with age and became a fairly elusive fighter.

In terms of historical bouts, none of the names on Wladimir’s resume could possibly compete with Vitali’s defeat to Lennox Lewis, which proved his talent beyond any shadow of doubt.

Vitali was neither young nor inexperienced - WTF are you on about? He was 32 years old, with 33 fights behind him - don't just make shite up.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

The truth is, the HWs are bigger and stronger today than they ever were.

FALSEHOOD

No it isn't - it is a documeted fact.

A 17 stone fighter even as late as 1983 was basically unheard of.

Someone like Herbie Hide who is 6ft 1ins and 15 stone would have been considered an average sized heavyweight up until the early 1980's - now he is seen as a small heavyweight.

Back in the 1960's - Sonny Liston was seen as a giant - his statistics - 6ft 1ins and 15 and a half stone - more or less the same size as Herbie Hide.


And they are stronger in what way - you do realise that size doesn't dicate how hard you punch? Bigger does not necessarily equal harder puncher. Shavers wasn't anywhere near as big as Wlad, but hit every bit as hard, if not harder.

Who has mentioned about anyone punching harder, Jim? We are talking about fighters being bigger and stronger for which they are, better diets, better knowledge regards training, more advanced supplements (steroids?) and the rest of it means heavyweights are a lot muscular, physically stronger, heavier and leaner than they ever were.

Punching power has nothing to do with strength more than it has to do with timing and speed, Jimmy Wilde had very little muscle but was a supreme KO artist.

At 6ft 6ins and 18 stone - Primo Canera was seen as a circus freak in his day, now he would be bigger than average.

[magwitch]

Ali
Louis
Marciano
Holmes
Tyson
Lewis
Foreman
Klitschko
Frazier
Johnson
Dempsey
Tunney
Jeffries

I voted 'top 15' but obviously he is a bit higher than that if you make a few quick calculations.

Klitschko would smash Mariciano up mate I suspect. It's a generational - and probably a size thing. I don't know much about The Rock, but what do you think he was doing that Wlad can't do today?
Lovely athlete (I'm assuming he's been tested often during his career for drugs and found to be complying with the rules). The man's in great shape, has a great work ethic and thus gives him a platform on which to improve as a boxer. Too many soft-round-the-middle guys around at that weight. I think it would take someone from somewhere like the Ukraine frankly, to have the desire and the mental toughness that he does.

[magwitch]

Ali
Louis
Marciano
Holmes
Tyson
Lewis
Foreman
Klitschko
Frazier
Johnson
Dempsey
Tunney
Jeffries

I voted 'top 15' but obviously he is a bit higher than that if you make a few quick calculations.

you've got George and Joe 2 spaces apart, despite the fact George blasted Frazier....then again, didn't Frazier fight Ali 3 times, winning one and badly hurting him in another? It may not have been three times, I'm not 100% on that.....

but a question I was wondering the other day.......who wins this: a 28-30 yr old Lennox Lewis or the same age George Foreman?? Two huge men. That would have been a fight worth watching!

And also - let's take the winner of that fight ^^^ and fling him in with a prime Brown Bomber. How does Joe Louis do there? Was he quite a good bit smaller than those two?

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

Ali
Louis
Marciano
Holmes
Tyson
Lewis
Foreman
Klitschko
Frazier
Johnson
Dempsey
Tunney
Jeffries

I voted 'top 15' but obviously he is a bit higher than that if you make a few quick calculations.

Klitschko would smash Mariciano up mate I suspect. It's a generational - and probably a size thing. I don't know much about The Rock, but what do you think he was doing that Wlad can't do today?
Lovely athlete (I'm assuming he's been tested often during his career for drugs and found to be complying with the rules). The man's in great shape, has a great work ethic and thus gives him a platform on which to improve as a boxer. Too many soft-round-the-middle guys around at that weight. I think it would take someone from somewhere like the Ukraine frankly, to have the desire and the mental toughness that he does.

I totally agree that he would smash Marciano up but then Marciano today would be a small cruiserweight and with todays training and dieting techniques could probably get down to light heavyweight - when rating fighters - you can't rate them on who would beat who as the older fighters (at heavyweight for sure) would always be at a disadvantage. Marciano left an unbeaten record - the only heavyweight to do so and beat three hall of famers (albeit old and past their prime) also Marciano had a high sporting profile whereas Vladimir does not - amongst the public at large at least.