Wladimir Klitschko v Larry Holmes in all-time HW rankings

Who?

Wladimir Klitschko
45
38%
Larry Holmes
63
53%
Can't split 'em
10
8%
Can't stand 'em
1
1%
 
Total votes: 119

evrenb
Super Middleweight
Posts: 3410
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Re: Wladimir Klitschko v Larry Holmes in all-time HW ranking

Post by evrenb »

dempseyfire wrote:OMG so now people are claiming Haye has a 50/50 chance vs Holmes?? :lol:

This thread has gone to hell. You younger posters know jack squat. Haye would lose to (more than) a handful of Holmes victims. I wouldn't confidently pick Haye against Renaldo Snipes.

Haye vs

1. Ken Norton
2. Alfredo Evangelista
3. Ossie Ocasio
4. Mike Weaver
5. Earnie Shavers
6. Lorenzo Zanon
7. Leroy Jones
8. Scott Ledoux
9. Muhammad Ali
10. Trevor Berbick
11. Leon Spinks
12. Renaldo Snipes
13. Gerry Cooney
14. Tex Cobb
15. Lucien Rodriguez
16. Tim Witherspoon
17. Scott Frank
18. Marvis Frazier
19. Bonecrusher Smnith
20. David Bey
21. Carl Williams


Bit of fun...who ya got
cjdragon
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Re: Wladimir Klitschko v Larry Holmes in all-time HW ranking

Post by cjdragon »

dempseyfire wrote:OMG so now people are claiming Haye has a 50/50 chance vs Holmes?? :lol:

This thread has gone to hell. You younger posters know jack squat. Haye would lose to (more than) a handful of Holmes victims. I wouldn't confidently pick Haye against Renaldo Snipes.
I definitely wouldn't have Haye beating Holmes. Holmes UD.12 over Haye in my opinion.
And being just under 40, do I count as a youngster? :)

Seriously though yeah this thread is getting old.
Then again no one is forcing me to read or respond to it, I'm just bored out of my mind :)
tiny_acres
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Re: Wladimir Klitschko v Larry Holmes in all-time HW ranking

Post by tiny_acres »

cjdragon wrote:
dempseyfire wrote:OMG so now people are claiming Haye has a 50/50 chance vs Holmes?? :lol:

This thread has gone to hell. You younger posters know jack squat. Haye would lose to (more than) a handful of Holmes victims. I wouldn't confidently pick Haye against Renaldo Snipes.
I definitely wouldn't have Haye beating Holmes. Holmes UD.12 over Haye in my opinion.
And being just under 40, do I count as a youngster? :)

Seriously though yeah this thread is getting old.
Then again no one is forcing me to read or respond to it, I'm just bored out of my mind :)

:lol: I agree. Boredom and morbid curiosity keeps drawing me in.
jamesmcdonnell
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Re: Wladimir Klitschko v Larry Holmes in all-time HW ranking

Post by jamesmcdonnell »

evrenb wrote:
dempseyfire wrote:OMG so now people are claiming Haye has a 50/50 chance vs Holmes?? :lol:

This thread has gone to hell. You younger posters know jack squat. Haye would lose to (more than) a handful of Holmes victims. I wouldn't confidently pick Haye against Renaldo Snipes.

Haye vs

1. Ken Norton
2. Alfredo Evangelista
3. Ossie Ocasio
4. Mike Weaver
5. Earnie Shavers
6. Lorenzo Zanon
7. Leroy Jones
8. Scott Ledoux
9. Muhammad Ali
10. Trevor Berbick
11. Leon Spinks
12. Renaldo Snipes
13. Gerry Cooney
14. Tex Cobb
15. Lucien Rodriguez
16. Tim Witherspoon
17. Scott Frank
18. Marvis Frazier
19. Bonecrusher Smnith
20. David Bey
21. Carl Williams


Bit of fun...who ya got
Snipes and Shavers leap out as two who would ice Haye - and Witherspoon would have been too cute if he'd been in Shape - Cooney, that would have been a brutal affair for Haye, Cooney held a shot, and hit like a mule. Haye was nowhere near as quick as Spinks.

There's a few on there I'd pick him over, Williams, Bey, Frank, Frazier Jr, Leon...maybe bonecrusher, and Smith didn't throw many shots, but if he caught Haye, it would definitely have been goodnight Vienna!
evrenb
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Re: Wladimir Klitschko v Larry Holmes in all-time HW ranking

Post by evrenb »

evrenb wrote:
dempseyfire wrote:OMG so now people are claiming Haye has a 50/50 chance vs Holmes?? :lol:

This thread has gone to hell. You younger posters know jack squat. Haye would lose to (more than) a handful of Holmes victims. I wouldn't confidently pick Haye against Renaldo Snipes.

Haye vs

1. Ken Norton - norton ko 5
2. Alfredo Evangelista - Haye ko5
3. Ossie Ocasio - Haye points
4. Mike Weaver - Weaver ko5
5. Earnie Shavers - shavers ko 2
6. Lorenzo Zanon - Haye ko 2
7. Leroy Jones - Haye points
8. Scott Ledoux- Haye points
9. Muhammad Ali- Haye points
10. Trevor Berbick- Berbick points
11. Leon Spinks- Haye ko 3
12. Renaldo Snipes - Snipes ko9
13. Gerry Cooney - Cooney ko 4
14. Tex Cobb- Haye points
15. Lucien Rodriguez- Haye points
16. Tim Witherspoon- Witherspoon ko8
17. Scott Frank-haye tko
18. Marvis Frazier - frazier points
19. Bonecrusher Smnith- Haye points
20. David Bey- Haye ko 10
21. Carl Williams - Williams points


Bit of fun...who ya got
jamesmcdonnell
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Re: Wladimir Klitschko v Larry Holmes in all-time HW ranking

Post by jamesmcdonnell »

evrenb wrote:
evrenb wrote:
dempseyfire wrote:OMG so now people are claiming Haye has a 50/50 chance vs Holmes?? :lol:

This thread has gone to hell. You younger posters know jack squat. Haye would lose to (more than) a handful of Holmes victims. I wouldn't confidently pick Haye against Renaldo Snipes.

Haye vs

1. Ken Norton - norton ko 5
2. Alfredo Evangelista - Haye ko5
3. Ossie Ocasio - Haye points
4. Mike Weaver - Weaver ko5
5. Earnie Shavers - shavers ko 2
6. Lorenzo Zanon - Haye ko 2
7. Leroy Jones - Haye points
8. Scott Ledoux- Haye points
9. Muhammad Ali- Haye points
10. Trevor Berbick- Berbick points
11. Leon Spinks- Haye ko 3
12. Renaldo Snipes - Snipes ko9
13. Gerry Cooney - Cooney ko 4
14. Tex Cobb- Haye points
15. Lucien Rodriguez- Haye points
16. Tim Witherspoon- Witherspoon ko8
17. Scott Frank-haye tko
18. Marvis Frazier - frazier points
19. Bonecrusher Smnith- Haye points
20. David Bey- Haye ko 10
21. Carl Williams - Williams points


Bit of fun...who ya got
Haye beats Ali on points!! You are kidding right? The rest of that list looks sensible, is that a typo?
evrenb
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Re: Wladimir Klitschko v Larry Holmes in all-time HW ranking

Post by evrenb »

These fighters as they were when they fought Holmes
jamesmcdonnell
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Re: Wladimir Klitschko v Larry Holmes in all-time HW ranking

Post by jamesmcdonnell »

evrenb wrote:These fighters as they were when they fought Holmes
Surely you would want to compare them in their primes, not when they were shot to shite? Ali was already suffering from the early stages of Parkinsonism, and horrifically weight drained from diuretics. Seems and odd way to compare, but I get your point.
tiny_acres
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Re: Wladimir Klitschko v Larry Holmes in all-time HW ranking

Post by tiny_acres »

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
evrenb wrote:These fighters as they were when they fought Holmes
Surely you would want to compare them in their primes, not when they were shot to shite? Ali was already suffering from the early stages of Parkinsonism, and horrifically weight drained from diuretics. Seems and odd way to compare, but I get your point.
I think it is only fair to rate them as they fought Holmes.But in same fairness we should also look at Haye at
his ultimate heavyweight self in either the Valuev fight or Klitschko.
Haye would of beat Ali at this stage.But he would lose to a bunch of others.Ali was a shell of himself
hurricanemitch14
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Re: Wladimir Klitschko v Larry Holmes in all-time HW ranking

Post by hurricanemitch14 »

havid fuckin haye beats ali?????? retard
cjdragon
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Re: Wladimir Klitschko v Larry Holmes in all-time HW ranking

Post by cjdragon »

hurricanemitch14 wrote:havid fuckin haye beats ali?????? retard
They are talking about the faded, past prime Ali that Holmes beat.
The Ali that had been beaten by Leon Spinks...NOT the prime Ali.
You might want to read some of the posts above.
tiny_acres
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Re: Wladimir Klitschko v Larry Holmes in all-time HW ranking

Post by tiny_acres »

cjdragon wrote:
hurricanemitch14 wrote:havid fuckin haye beats ali?????? retard
They are talking about the faded, past prime Ali that Holmes beat.
The Ali that had been beaten by Leon Spinks...NOT the prime Ali.
You might want to read some of the posts above.
Thank you. So many people comment without reading or thinking
JeanClaude Van Damme
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Re: Wladimir Klitschko v Larry Holmes in all-time HW ranking

Post by JeanClaude Van Damme »

Wlad paws with his jab to keep a distance, and when the distance is closed, he just grabs and lays onto his opponents.

Larry's jab was the best ever. It was a weapon, both defensively and offensively.

Holmes also possessed one of the best uppercuts in HW history. No doubt he could KO Wlad.



Image
tiny_acres
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Re: Wladimir Klitschko v Larry Holmes in all-time HW ranking

Post by tiny_acres »

JeanClaude Van Damme wrote:Wlad paws with his jab to keep a distance, and when the distance is closed, he just grabs and lays onto his opponents.

Larry's jab was the best ever. It was a weapon, both defensively and offensively.

Holmes also possessed one of the best uppercuts in HW history. No doubt he could KO Wlad.



Image
I could not agree more.Holmes had all the tools to beat Wlad.
cjdragon
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Re: Wladimir Klitschko v Larry Holmes in all-time HW ranking

Post by cjdragon »

Actually I believe Wlad has the best jab in the heavyweight division right now, and up there with the best ever. (not the best of all time, I love Holmes' jab). :)
Wlad certainly does not always paw with his jab, he can rock it straight in with power. The Pulev fight featured an angry and ferocious Klitschko (he clearly wanted to knock out Pulev early)...but if you watch some of the "boring" Klitschko fights you'll likely see his hard jab. And he beat Ray Austin with his left hand alone. He never once threw a right hand in that fight.

Holmes had the best jab I believe. But Wladimir Klitschko has an excellent and powerful jab.
cjdragon
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Re: Wladimir Klitschko v Larry Holmes in all-time HW ranking

Post by cjdragon »

JeanClaude Van Damme wrote:Wlad paws with his jab to keep a distance, and when the distance is closed, he just grabs and lays onto his opponents.

Larry's jab was the best ever. It was a weapon, both defensively and offensively.

Holmes also possessed one of the best uppercuts in HW history. No doubt he could KO Wlad.
But Wlad. doesn't leave his chin open for uppercuts (the forgotten punch, good video by the way).
The way Wlad fights, his chin is just way to far back to be hit with that. And up close he turns his head to avoid uppercuts on the chin.

I just don't think Holmes would beat Wlad by KO in some type of fantasy fight scenario.
None of us will ever know, but I don't believe Larry Holmes KO's Wlad Klitschko.
Raff The Frenchman
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Re: Wladimir Klitschko v Larry Holmes in all-time HW ranking

Post by Raff The Frenchman »

As of right now, Holmes by a slight margin due to him facing higher quality opposition, but then again, not Wlad fault...
HOWEVER...Wlad still seems to be prime enough and should be able to reign for at least 3 more years, likely adding 10 more wins to his record, all being title defenses or unifications.
Also, if they fought at their prime, Wlad would be all wrong for small Larry...and likely knock him out brutally.
So, as I said above, Holmes gets the notch as of right now, but after Wlad retires, he will rank higher.
Leonid
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Re: Wladimir Klitschko v Larry Holmes in all-time HW ranking

Post by Leonid »

evrenb wrote:
evrenb wrote:
dempseyfire wrote:OMG so now people are claiming Haye has a 50/50 chance vs Holmes?? :lol:

This thread has gone to hell. You younger posters know jack squat. Haye would lose to (more than) a handful of Holmes victims. I wouldn't confidently pick Haye against Renaldo Snipes.

Haye vs

1. Ken Norton - norton ko 5
2. Alfredo Evangelista - Haye ko5
3. Ossie Ocasio - Haye points
4. Mike Weaver - Weaver ko5
5. Earnie Shavers - shavers ko 2
6. Lorenzo Zanon - Haye ko 2
7. Leroy Jones - Haye points
8. Scott Ledoux- Haye points
9. Muhammad Ali- Haye points
10. Trevor Berbick- Berbick points
11. Leon Spinks- Haye ko 3
12. Renaldo Snipes - Snipes ko9
13. Gerry Cooney - Cooney ko 4
14. Tex Cobb- Haye points
15. Lucien Rodriguez- Haye points
16. Tim Witherspoon- Witherspoon ko8
17. Scott Frank-haye tko
18. Marvis Frazier - frazier points
19. Bonecrusher Smnith- Haye points
20. David Bey- Haye ko 10
21. Carl Williams - Williams points


Bit of fun...who ya got
Marvis Frasier on points.. Just wow. I kinda suspected some would take everyone there, who could punch, by ko over Haye, but people just don't stop surprising me. And that very raw Weaver, who was losing fights right and left, wins by ko 5? Did he stop that early anyone in his entire carrier who had at least a doezen pro fights or wasn't a complete bum? You best guess would probably be his tko2 of Carl Williams, another Haye beater in this fantasy.

BTW how many good punches landed on either Haye or Wlad in their entire carriers? Yet many limited punchers of the past are often given good chances to ko both, early. And that in supposed to be a good knowledge of sport. Yet giving Haye 50/50 chance with Holmes is completely ignorant, the most stupid thing on the forum.. Holmes wasn't exactly top ATG puncher, didn't have size advantage, his jab could be neutralised by Haye same as in Wlad fight, and Holmes had close fights with much less skilled fighters. You may not agree with 50/50, but I dont see it that unreasonable.
evrenb
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Re: Wladimir Klitschko v Larry Holmes in all-time HW ranking

Post by evrenb »

Leonid. An opinion is just that. Its not fact. I'm not saying I am right. It's my opinion that's all.you may have a far superior knowledge of boxing and its history than me..
KBB
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Re: Wladimir Klitschko v Larry Holmes in all-time HW ranking

Post by KBB »

Leonid wrote:
evrenb wrote: I reckon many wouldn't agree with you that Wlad had a better jab or was more competitive. As I stated on earlier posts Holmes was at his best 1977/78 - 1982/3 - I would pick this Holmes versus any version of Wlad.

I also think calling an undefeated young fighter going in against Holmes a 'Journeyman' is stretching the truth. I watched this fight last night funnily enough and it was a poor performance by Larry's standard. He was at the end of his proper career. Opinions make the world go

around I guess...you are welcome to yours...

Evrenb
And I would pick prime Wlad over any version of Holmes H2H))) But as I wrote before, they are comparative in a historic standing.
By "journeyman" I was kinda referring to his whole carrear, which I thought was implied following the "future HOFer" joke.

To KBB: "size disparity proves even less" - No. Good bigger fighter beats equally good smaller fighter. That's why we have divisions.
"better foot movement, defense" - it did not help Haye win. And I'd give Haye 50/50 chance vs Larry H2H. You think I must be trolling. I'm not.

I just don't exaggarate past fighter's abilities, while in many minds here legends can't be questioned. Holmes having the best jab in history can't be questioned by the mentioned fact of him being outjabbed by a not so good fighter. Shavers having the hardest punch (per biased statements of those he lost to) can't be disproved by the fact he didn't win those fights despite landing some of his best bombs, while we often say that at HW even not the biggest punchers have fair chance to stop better boxers. Ali can't be disproved as the best skilled and simply the very best HW by the fact that he had competitive fights with guys like abovementioned very limited puncher, hell, even young and so fast and so skilled Clay had very even fight with Jones, not so special fighter either.

Opinions, opinions... there should be some respect, but there should be some logic too.
Your logic fails in explaining that Larry Holmes was far smaller than Gerry Cooney and look what he was able to do to him, explain that in your garbage theory?

I think you're trolling by trying to justify your stupid post with failed logic.
drunkenpiper36
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Re: Wladimir Klitschko v Larry Holmes in all-time HW ranking

Post by drunkenpiper36 »

Your logic fails in explaining that Larry Holmes was far smaller than Gerry Cooney and look what he was able to do to him
I wouldn't personally pick Klitschko to beat Larry Holmes. But in fairness to the other guy, he clearly made this statement "Good bigger fighter beats equally good smaller fighter." While Gerry Cooney and Wladimir Klitschko both shared the commonality of being significantly larger than Holmes, I think the similarities end there. Klitschko was a much more sound boxer with better stamina, mental fortitude, superior conditioning, and survival skills. For whatever its worth he also had a few more pounds and possibly a little more strength than Cooney. I still wouldn't favor him over Larry, but I don't think Cooney is an appropriate comparison of A Good big fighter taking on a good small fighter, whereas Wladimir vs Larry would be a better example.
Baby Face Finster
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Re: Wladimir Klitschko v Larry Holmes in all-time HW ranking

Post by Baby Face Finster »

No doubt in my mind that Wlad would beat Holmes. Just too big and strong for Larry.

Based on accomplishments Holmes is ranked over Wlad at this point, but head to head I would bet on Wlad.
drunkenpiper36
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Re: Wladimir Klitschko v Larry Holmes in all-time HW ranking

Post by drunkenpiper36 »

Baby Face Finster wrote:No doubt in my mind that Wlad would beat Holmes. Just too big and strong for Larry.

Based on accomplishments Holmes is ranked over Wlad at this point, but head to head I would bet on Wlad.

I wouldn't put my money on Wlad, but its not out of the question that he could take it. Holmes didn't have the power to hurt Wlad the way that his other conquerors did and Larry was subject to getting tagged and stunned with right hands his whole career. And while Holmes is a much better boxer than any Wlad has ever faced, we at least saw what happened when similar "types" of fighters in Eddie Chambers and Chris Byrd took him on. Of course neither of these guys are in Holmes' league in the boxing department. But it generally took punchers to cause him any trouble and not men who used the ring and the jab.
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Re: Wladimir Klitschko v Larry Holmes in all-time HW ranking

Post by JeanClaude Van Damme »

cjdragon wrote:
JeanClaude Van Damme wrote:Wlad paws with his jab to keep a distance, and when the distance is closed, he just grabs and lays onto his opponents.

Larry's jab was the best ever. It was a weapon, both defensively and offensively.

Holmes also possessed one of the best uppercuts in HW history. No doubt he could KO Wlad.
But Wlad. doesn't leave his chin open for uppercuts (the forgotten punch, good video by the way).
The way Wlad fights, his chin is just way to far back to be hit with that. And up close he turns his head to avoid uppercuts on the chin.

I just don't think Holmes would beat Wlad by KO in some type of fantasy fight scenario.
None of us will ever know, but I don't believe Larry Holmes KO's Wlad Klitschko.



You are right that he does try to keep his chin out of the way most of the time, but there exceptions.



When he paws with his jab, his chin is wide open. It's usually followed by a big punch, but that's where the combination usually ends, and he's still open and off balance the entire time. This is why you've seen him fail to pull the trigger with that right hand and end up in extremely boring decisions with the likes of Ibragimov and Haye.


Image



This is also why he is forced to grapple opponents in an exchange, due to a complete lack of classical boxing defense. I'm not entirely convinced that a man taller than you attempting to smother you isn't ripe for an uppercut.


Image

Image





Wlad doesn't understand actual defense, and his opponents are tubs of lard with no upper body movement that could never slip under his pattycake pawing, so I assume he'll keep winning.
drunkenpiper36
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Re: Wladimir Klitschko v Larry Holmes in all-time HW ranking

Post by drunkenpiper36 »

JeanClaude Van Damme wrote:Wlad paws with his jab to keep a distance, and when the distance is closed, he just grabs and lays onto his opponents.

Larry's jab was the best ever. It was a weapon, both defensively and offensively.

Holmes also possessed one of the best uppercuts in HW history. No doubt he could KO Wlad.



Image

That uppercut didn't KO the pictured opponent you posted either. And that was a 6'0", 200 lb man who wasn't quite the fighter that a prime Klitschko was. Holmes also landed that uppercut as weaver had him pinned to the ropes and leaving himself open as he pressed the attack, as opposed to completely tying him up all together. For the record, I'd favor Holmes slightly to edge Wlad in a close decision on the basis of better ring generalship, heart, and experience in the late rounds. But I'm not sold on a Larry Holmes knockout win and frankly I also think that this is a fight that Klitschko "could" win.
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